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  • ElloleiaElloleia Member
    edited June 2018

    @MicheleSP said:

    Overreacter...

    I think you're overreacting. We wish fatigue could stay but at this point EME had already made the decision. Fatigue was already a deterrent for most players in first place - Vinctus (Idk the name) had a token/fatigue system but was removed quickly due to blocking players, Altantica Online lost most of playerbase in a single announcement (that's what I keep hearing about, what is the announcement? please PM me)

    There is no permanent solution to get rid of bots without risks, and developers know that. EME already know about this. There can not be a way to get rid of bots forever without risking something. And even if there are no bots, there are games with economy like this. Look at DFO for example, despite there being fatigue the market items are sometimes inflated with prices.

    Besides, fatigue system were supposed to be for Asians and Chinese players...

    The game is called Vindictus. You shouldn't really be saying anything about the game if you haven't played it, but the reason why people complained about the fatigue system is the ENDLESS amount of grind in that game. Literally in that game you can spend months and months spamming the same dungeon and you'll only be able to afford maybe 1-2 pieces of gear if you're lucky. I've already said this but ALL channels were littered with bots and every hour they'd spam dungeons causing the ENTIRE server to lag, making launching dungeons virtually impossible. There's less bots now but the Vindictus community isn't doing so well and it hasn't been for years now tbh it surprises me that NA hasn't shut down yet with only about 200-400 active players. (400 is probably just being optimistic)

    This is what I remember the last time I played it: costumes used to be around 1b around 2015, which is impossible for a f2p to even get, but the current prices were probably around 500m in March. ONE material for the end game weapons shot up to 200m.

    I quit Vindictus due to the insane inflation and moved here, I don't want the same thing to happen.

    EDIT:fixed some grammar and if you want I can pull up some prices of the end game materials.

  • mistressjmistressj Member
    edited June 2018

    @JRNLC4JEPN said:

    @MicheleSP said:

    Overreacter...

    I think you're overreacting. We wish fatigue could stay but at this point EME had already made the decision. Fatigue was already a deterrent for most players in first place - Vinctus (Idk the name) had a token/fatigue system but was removed quickly due to blocking players, Altantica Online lost most of playerbase in a single announcement (that's what I keep hearing about, what is the announcement? please PM me)

    There is no permanent solution to get rid of bots without risks, and developers know that. EME already know about this. There can not be a way to get rid of bots forever without risking something. And even if there are no bots, there are games with economy like this. Look at DFO for example, despite there being fatigue the market items are sometimes inflated with prices.

    Besides, fatigue system were supposed to be for Asians and Chinese players...

    The game is called Vindictus. You shouldn't really be saying anything about the game if you haven't played it, but the reason why people complained about the fatigue system is the ENDLESS amount of grind in that game. Literally in that game you can spend months and months spamming the same dungeon and you'll only be able to afford maybe 1-2 pieces of gear if you're lucky. I've already said this but ALL channels were littered with bots and every hour they'd spam dungeons causing the ENTIRE server to lag, making launching dungeons virtually impossible. There's less bots now but the Vindictus community isn't doing so well and it hasn't been for years now tbh it surprises me that NA hasn't shut down yet with only about 200-400 active players. (400 is probably just being optimistic)

    This is what I remember the last time I played it: costumes used to be around 1b around 2015, which is impossible for a f2p to even get, but the current prices were probably around 500m in March. ONE material for the end game weapons shot up to 200m.

    I quit Vindictus due to the insane inflation and moved here, I don't want the same thing to happen.

    EDIT:fixed some grammar and if you want I can pull up some prices of the end game materials.

    This. So.much THIS.
    I played it since it was open to about the time arisha was released and quit soon after I got her to 70.

  • @mistressj said:

    This. So.much THIS.
    I played it since it was open to about the time arisha was released and quit soon after I got her to 70.

    Yup I played Vindictus until I heard about Closers NA because I've been waiting LITERALLY since it was released in KR. Dark times my friend... This game doesn't even require you to farm as much as Vindictus unless you want an entire closet of costumes to dress your characters in. The only time when you actually max your fatigue is when you want to level, so I have no idea why the hell players are complaining about the fatigue system when the only dungeons people do are tia, tia sides, PG75, gremory, gremory sides, and currently Irina (and VR dungeons if you still want wings).

  • @JRNLC4JEPN said:

    @mistressj said:

    This. So.much THIS.
    I played it since it was open to about the time arisha was released and quit soon after I got her to 70.

    Yup I played Vindictus until I heard about Closers NA because I've been waiting LITERALLY since it was released in KR. Dark times my friend... This game doesn't even require you to farm as much as Vindictus unless you want an entire closet of costumes to dress your characters in. The only time when you actually max your fatigue is when you want to level, so I have no idea why the hell players are complaining about the fatigue system when the only dungeons people do are tia, tia sides, PG75, gremory, gremory sides, and currently Irina (and VR dungeons if you still want wings).

    And even then with all the events going on they throw stam.pots at you.

  • @JRNLC4JEPN said:

    @mistressj said:

    This. So.much THIS.
    I played it since it was open to about the time arisha was released and quit soon after I got her to 70.

    Yup I played Vindictus until I heard about Closers NA because I've been waiting LITERALLY since it was released in KR. Dark times my friend... This game doesn't even require you to farm as much as Vindictus unless you want an entire closet of costumes to dress your characters in. The only time when you actually max your fatigue is when you want to level, so I have no idea why the hell players are complaining about the fatigue system when the only dungeons people do are tia, tia sides, PG75, gremory, gremory sides, and currently Irina (and VR dungeons if you still want wings).

    Because you still don't have enough fatigue to do all the dailies much less Crew Missions/Quests unless you PvP, and that is always a bad thing.

  • @metafalica said:

    @JRNLC4JEPN said:

    @mistressj said:

    This. So.much THIS.
    I played it since it was open to about the time arisha was released and quit soon after I got her to 70.

    Yup I played Vindictus until I heard about Closers NA because I've been waiting LITERALLY since it was released in KR. Dark times my friend... This game doesn't even require you to farm as much as Vindictus unless you want an entire closet of costumes to dress your characters in. The only time when you actually max your fatigue is when you want to level, so I have no idea why the hell players are complaining about the fatigue system when the only dungeons people do are tia, tia sides, PG75, gremory, gremory sides, and currently Irina (and VR dungeons if you still want wings).

    Because you still don't have enough fatigue to do all the dailies much less Crew Missions/Quests unless you PvP, and that is always a bad thing.

    Use the potions they give you? I don't have fatigue issues.

  • @metafalica said:

    Because you still don't have enough fatigue to do all the dailies much less Crew Missions/Quests unless you PvP, and that is always a bad thing.

    Then focus on the most important dungeons instead of trying to do everything. If dailies have the highest priorities, then do the dailies first and make sure you have enough fatigue to do it the next day. I have no idea if you have alts, but just do crew missions on alts instead of your main so you can save fatigue. Plus, crew missions are meant to be completed by multiple people, not just you so it wouldn't hurt to ask your crew members if they can help with that. Also, you complete most of the quests by lvling so it's not really an issue :/

  • I don't see why we can't just let people play with infinite fatigue but severely limit the credit and item rewards for people who are over a soft fatigue limit. An argument can be made that fatigue prevents newer players from getting into the game and rushing to level cap but we can just let them grind for levels for as long as they want without giving as many item drops.

    If we're looking to remove or rework fatigue, why not just drop the correlation between daily fatigue spent to daily earnings (in credits and other items)? The current popular argument AGAINST removing fatigue is that people are just going to grind for as long as they can and the amount of rewards for their time spent scales linearly with time. This is simple to counter by just weighing rewards even more heavily in favor of completing daily content instead of non-stop grinding. The only problem with this occurs when we have to consider the cost of rare drops like wings and other desirable items coming from dungeons without daily limits. This can be resolved by having a soft daily limit of runs with increased drop rate in these dungeons. The drop rate for these rare items can be reduced to 0 after this soft daily limit.

    For those that argue FOR removing fatigue, the idea that you can play-to-win by just grinding out all of your resources is simply impossible in closers. Many of the items you need for gearing up are generally locked behind a paywall (equalizers, slot mods, etc) while the ones that are obtainable by F2P generally have limited quantities at any given time (with the exception of enhancement boost 2's). The need for these items will always exist but the amount of credits they're worth gets inflated if everybody in the game suddenly gets richer. An argument can be made about reducing the dependency on the market to provide these items and making them more available through playing the game but this has to be decided by EME and Naddic as it directly affects their revenue.

    TLDR: Take a note from other successful games with fatigue systems and ones without fatigue systems. It doesn't matter which system is put in place as long as it's handled properly (although games that have successfully switched from one system to the other can be counted on one hand).

  • huh... Been gone from the forums for a bit and I must say... there's still a lot of people fighting about it... I more or less gave up and is just now waiting for that "update" they were going to give us regarding this issue.

  • YexeleYexele Member

    @ArunoSesugawa said:
    huh... Been gone from the forums for a bit and I must say... there's still a lot of people fighting about it... I more or less gave up and is just now waiting for that "update" they were going to give us regarding this issue.

    I haven't given up, but there is no fighting in the first place. They just announced their decision, THATS IT. Now, at least, if game goes to shit they cannot say "community wanted it". Concerns were pointed out, general mood is also operant. So we just wait and hope that we were wrong and it turns out to be great decision.

  • Lmao love that gif

  • @Yexele said:

    @ArunoSesugawa said:
    huh... Been gone from the forums for a bit and I must say... there's still a lot of people fighting about it... I more or less gave up and is just now waiting for that "update" they were going to give us regarding this issue.

    I haven't given up, but there is no fighting in the first place. They just announced their decision, THATS IT. Now, at least, if game goes to shit they cannot say "community wanted it". Concerns were pointed out, general mood is also operant. So we just wait and hope that we were wrong and it turns out to be great decision.

    Their excuse is already that the community wanted it :joy: Such an amazing way of washing hands...

  • edited June 2018

    @Pokechu said:
    @Katrian I love you!

    I don't know why, but this forum profile pic is killing me inside :D

  • @Pokechu said:

    @NekoparaVanilla said:

    @Pokechu said:
    @Katrian I love you!

    I don't know why, but this forum profile pic is killing me inside :D

    I think it's hilarious.

    Same, it makes you, kinda unique at the same time lol

  • @Pokechu Now you can show off your individuality.

  • @mistressj said:

    @metafalica said:

    @JRNLC4JEPN said:

    @mistressj said:

    This. So.much THIS.
    I played it since it was open to about the time arisha was released and quit soon after I got her to 70.

    Yup I played Vindictus until I heard about Closers NA because I've been waiting LITERALLY since it was released in KR. Dark times my friend... This game doesn't even require you to farm as much as Vindictus unless you want an entire closet of costumes to dress your characters in. The only time when you actually max your fatigue is when you want to level, so I have no idea why the hell players are complaining about the fatigue system when the only dungeons people do are tia, tia sides, PG75, gremory, gremory sides, and currently Irina (and VR dungeons if you still want wings).

    Because you still don't have enough fatigue to do all the dailies much less Crew Missions/Quests unless you PvP, and that is always a bad thing.

    Use the potions they give you? I don't have fatigue issues.

    The potions they give you isn't really enough if you're leveling. You'll be lucky if it lasts you two hours unless you're doing post Sky Ship content

  • Man. Is this thread still relevant now? I personally don't give a flying **** anymore. Cheers!

  • The major problems people having with the fatigue removal are the gold botters and expected in game economy crash where both related to gold currency.
    So if fatigue removal is a must by the dev and enmasse side, why not try this:
    1. Control the gold market by EnMasse
    2. Sell gold themself by exchanging gold with EMP with reasonable rates compared to gold seller
    3. Create a platform for players to trade gold with EMP buyers and vice versa
    4. With this players would farm gold to buy EMP for maybe elite status for example
    5. With this buying gold from illegal bot and more expensive rate makes player to buy EMP instead
    6. Buying EMP from EnMasse is at least more trustworthy than bot right?
    7. EMP buyer or whale can at least get gold with buying EMP

    So if really fatigue removal is must, why not try this for both party long term profit, player can expect market depend on how much gold can be bought with EMP and dev and publisher would benefit from player buying EMP.
    Well if end up not removing fatigue some earlier post with soft fatigue with reduced rate like DragonNest is great.
    Imo i like the idea of this platform so if any long term consequences that i left out kindly point to me.

  • @Nekko1314 said:
    The major problems people having with the fatigue removal are the gold botters and expected in game economy crash where both related to gold currency.
    So if fatigue removal is a must by the dev and enmasse side, why not try this:
    1. Control the gold market by EnMasse
    2. Sell gold themself by exchanging gold with EMP with reasonable rates compared to gold seller
    3. Create a platform for players to trade gold with EMP buyers and vice versa
    4. With this players would farm gold to buy EMP for maybe elite status for example
    5. With this buying gold from illegal bot and more expensive rate makes player to buy EMP instead
    6. Buying EMP from EnMasse is at least more trustworthy than bot right?
    7. EMP buyer or whale can at least get gold with buying EMP

    So if really fatigue removal is must, why not try this for both party long term profit, player can expect market depend on how much gold can be bought with EMP and dev and publisher would benefit from player buying EMP.
    Well if end up not removing fatigue some earlier post with soft fatigue with reduced rate like DragonNest is great.
    Imo i like the idea of this platform so if any long term consequences that i left out kindly point to me.

    The problem is being able to buy gold in the first place ._.

    Im sorry but I cannot see this being a good thing in any way shape or form.

  • if they control the gold market it just forces gold sellers to sell it cheaper which isnt really a fix its more like a band-aid to a stab wound

  • Nekko1314Nekko1314 Member
    edited June 2018

    imo gold seller is not really something that can be stopped entirely since no matter how there will be someone outside doing it so why not just make the publisher be the own gold seller with controlled rate :D
    With this and at the same time ban those gold seller or selling at a rate cheaper than those gold sellers until they can't profit from the game they would just quit the bot themselves.
    Since all people don't want removal of fatigue due to expected and flooding gold farmers to profit and obviously it couldn't be any worsen than this so why not just let the dev and publisher themselves sell gold through EMP
    The trick is when you can't remove all scars why not decorate your own scars

    1. With this buying gold from illegal bot and more expensive rate makes player to buy EMP instead
    2. Buying EMP from EnMasse is at least more trustworthy than bot right?

    At least buying from publisher is more trustworthy than outsiders bot since you wanna support the game or u wanna support the bots is up to u
    Besides making a platform to trade gold to EMP or vice versa is another way people farm gold and sell gold is due to demand of gold is high and players does not have time to farm as all of us have real life outside the game, so buying EMP = trading for gold with player is another way.

    The problem is being able to buy gold in the first place ._.

    Im sorry but I cannot see this being a good thing in any way shape or form.

    :smile: it's ok not everyone can accept it too at first until i experienced it myself

  • Publisher's gold market still better than bot's. Some MMO's surely have it(i think so), but removal of only character fatigue is MORE better IMHO. Or maybe just let gamers don't run out of ftg while doing story quests, or don't overload game with events. Either way I waiting for the Wolfgang and slowly leveling my other characters, so let's hope that game don't die after this.
    Or what more better is to stop from getting gold after ftg is out, but keep the exp to complete story, end-game don't eat your fatigue (if you already at max lvl)

  • @Pokechu said:

    Yeah, let's shift the selling of gold to the publisher. Surely inflation won't happen that way and it's not like it would allow a few special people to completely control the black market. You're a genius.

  • @Nathaniel697 said:
    Publisher's gold market still better than bot's. Some MMO's surely have it(i think so), but removal of only character fatigue is MORE better IMHO. Or maybe just let gamers don't run out of ftg while doing story quests, or don't overload game with events. Either way I waiting for the Wolfgang and slowly leveling my other characters, so let's hope that game don't die after this.
    Or what more better is to stop from getting gold after ftg is out, but keep the exp to complete story, end-game don't eat your fatigue (if you already at max lvl)

    I am pretty sure Neverwinter(the DnD online hack n slash-ish game) had it and when I played everything was a good price still -shrugs-

  • why the hell would anyone want a system that prevents you from playing the game? what on earth would make generic joes think they know more than people who work on the game on how to prevent the economy from crashing?

  • That and what would make anyone think EME is going to be able to prevent the economy from crashing? lmao

  • MuonMuon Member

    @Lihzakivi said:
    That and what would make anyone think EME is going to be able to prevent the economy from crashing? lmao

    Didnt they managed to bring down the inflation of Closers ID from 500m to 50m of SoD per piece?

  • @Nathaniel697 said:
    Publisher's gold market still better than bot's. Some MMO's surely have it(i think so), but removal of only character fatigue is MORE better IMHO. Or maybe just let gamers don't run out of ftg while doing story quests, or don't overload game with events. Either way I waiting for the Wolfgang and slowly leveling my other characters, so let's hope that game don't die after this.
    Or what more better is to stop from getting gold after ftg is out, but keep the exp to complete story, end-game don't eat your fatigue (if you already at max lvl)

    I agree with character fatigue removal, but a Publishers Market. Oh, that's dangerous. I don't trust EME enough for them to control the market. And what's more events are more important in order to keep playerbase high. Without events your game's dead in some way.

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