Thanks To Your Feedback...

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  • GenmGenm Member


    and a 12 Small Plum Soda from Union Premium Starter Pack and the free Weekly Small Plum Soda saved in EMP Store Delivery Box lol
    this is just few, but i saw some people saved a lot of this

  • @MicheleSP said:
    Look here, I don't blame you and I don't disagree, I got angry at peoples hating this removal, but I just don't get why fatigue should stay. I thought these system were hated.

    It appears I have been blind.

    Yes you have, there's been many, MANY discussions regarding fatigue in the past.

  • I was remembering something ... What will happen to the reward of the free Fatigue pot that elite/premium users receives every day?

  • @Cochese Oh, nice to see an admin finally dropping by, was quite a firestorm here before... Nice to know about the things you stated and will see how it's implemented come what may this July 3.

    @Lihzakivi Cereal note sounds like a semi-good cereal.... but speaking seriously, Some people really are taking them too lightly for a few reasons... 1. They've never tried or bought anything from them thinking it's just a scam (which they are on many levels either they scam the game devs/company or the players themselves) 2. having to experience regarding this, they think that it's just trolling around...

    I've a friend I met online on Aura Kingdom that actually buys from RMT websites and even gave me stuff he bought from the market of that game using the In game Cash he bought (which at the time I didn't know he did).. It's real, and they exist...

    On a different note there was this one game I used to play that controlled their players quite well, by offering an actual in game currency (silver) and cash currency (gold) available to be bought by players using silver to gold and gold to silver

    It's called albion online, the way this works is the price of gold is controlled by players like how BM works in closers right now.

    some gold could be sold at lower than average price and some can be sold at higher, it all depends on the actual players themselves should they want to buy a more than average cost of the gold if they need it at the moment or sell their stashed gold for silver so they can buy that one epic mount they want in the Auction house and stuff like that

    of course, I'm not saying they should do the same regarding Credits and EMP... Heck no... just stating how well they actually controlled the market in that game is quite nice... sure Bots still exist in that game (they exist everywhere) but in a game where the market is literally controlled by all the players, circulation of money will prevent any type of inflation... unless those greedy stall owners makes their stall cost 900% the avg price because why the fork not.

  • Fe9lFe9l Member

    why would not players write requests for a refund for the purchase of the premium. After all, in fact, people paid for an equal game, and not for the sake of those who are more in the game. Those who bought the premium for 3 months paid, including for 100 energy per day, and not for things that will be given in exchange

  • @Cochese said:
    Using a system like fatigue, to balance an economy and keep bots away, is not the only solution. There are many MMOs out there, that do not have a fatigue system to accomplish this and we are working with Naddic to address these concerns you've voiced here.

    1) Bots and Gold Selling - we are digging into bot detection, looking at solutions that others have used. This is a high priority regardless of fatigue. Look for more info on this soon. We are still working out a best solution but we plan on better identification of bots, improvements to impede bots through learnings, banning bots in waves, and then sharing that with all of you. We are committed to keeping Closers a safe and fun place to play.

    2) Conversion of Stamina Pots - we are doing a live audit to see how many pots are out there and how many pots are on individual accounts. This will inform our decisions on how to safely remove these from player inventories without a big wave to the economy.

    3) Black Market - there are cap limits and restrictions to help keep the item costs in a reasonable place. On the other side of this, that does limit the amount of epic items, due to their perceived value being much higher. Inflation is part of all economies and we are looking at the best way to ensure that items are sold fairly among players and to enhance the overall value of the market place.

    4) Japan - we learned from their experience and will not be the same. This is a different implementation for our region.

    Your concerns are valid and we are actively working to ensure this is a good thing, not a thing that breaks something else. This has been the hottest topic since we started way back in Alpha. I've heard all the reasons fatigue is bad, I am not surprised to now hear all the ways it was good. Please keep the feedback coming, this will all make for a better implementation for your game.

    The issue I have with this... why not wait until AFTER you have those bot detection and banning systems in place? Because once you give them an inch they will take it all. And those systems applied after the dmg has been done might not be enough to save the game. That's my main concern... once bots take over you lose your current player base and new players will have those same issues.

  • @ArunoSesugawa said:
    @Cochese Oh, nice to see an admin finally dropping by, was quite a firestorm here before... Nice to know about the things you stated and will see how it's implemented come what may this July 3.

    To be fair, the EME Staff have other stuff to do too, rather than keep an eye glued to forums 24/7 lol
    In other words, I knew one would get here, it was just a matter of time. So hopefully this thread should cool down a bit since our concerns have been heard at this point.
    Remembers other people griping that the EME staff weren't listening to us as if they had all the time in the world to do whatever they want.

  • How will Elite/Platinum players be compensated? I just stacked up enough Elite to get Platinum, and one of the perks is an extra fatigue potion. For players that maxed their fatigue at endgame via raids, this was a nice bonus that basically allowed for an extra ten runs a day for quick things like Tiamat. I feel this is one part of the new system's implementation that's been overlooked.

  • @Tetsuo9999 said:
    How will Elite/Platinum players be compensated? I just stacked up enough Elite to get Platinum, and one of the perks is an extra fatigue potion. For players that maxed their fatigue at endgame via raids, this was a nice bonus that basically allowed for an extra ten runs a day for quick things like Tiamat. I feel this is one part of the new system's implementation that's been overlooked.

    Now you can run not just 10 extra runs, but 10000000 extra runs.

  • @Orenglaive said:

    @ArunoSesugawa said:
    @Cochese Oh, nice to see an admin finally dropping by, was quite a firestorm here before... Nice to know about the things you stated and will see how it's implemented come what may this July 3.

    To be fair, the EME Staff have other stuff to do too, rather than keep an eye glued to forums 24/7 lol
    In other words, I knew one would get here, it was just a matter of time. So hopefully this thread should cool down a bit since our concerns have been heard at this point.
    Remembers other people griping that the EME staff weren't listening to us as if they had all the time in the world to do whatever they want.

    I know, we all have a life outside the computers...... well most of us anyways... I understand that, and if my statement seem somehow sarcastic I promise you I never meant it to be that way. I'm actually happy that they came and addressed the Forum Post.

  • @Cochese So you said you'd heard all the reasons fatigue is bad? And could you share these exact reasons in some sort of listed format? Instead of just saying you've heard a few reasons from people who don't give the game more than a week to play it.

  • @SandersLMAO said:
    so their malek boxes system is pretty much the same as ours then? Then that makes the JP screenshots still relevant, no? The prices of things will inflate to that extent, is that what is implied here?

    No, it is not the same. The JP version's Malek boxes have an equal chance of dropping every possible number of crystals. Our version, and the KR version, do not have an equal chance of every amount dropping. We have a far higher chance of only getting 1 crystal, and a far lower chance of getting every other amount.

  • @IDoNotMainJ said:
    @Cochese So you said you'd heard all the reasons fatigue is bad? And could you share these exact reasons in some sort of listed format? Instead of just saying you've heard a few reasons from people who don't give the game more than a week to play it.

    It was months ago. However, it quickly boiled down to both sides completely disregarding the other's arguments.
    https://forums.enmasse.com/closers/discussion/1099/fatigue-system-suggestions-and-discussion

  • STOP @metafalica !! You'll cause the post to get Necro'd Again!!

  • @ArunoSesugawa said:
    STOP @metafalica !! You'll cause the post to get Necro'd Again!!

    The post was updated a day ago. This isn't necroing.

  • yeah, it was updated a day ago because it got necro'd multiple times. I even tried to stop people from actually posting on a dead thread.

  • The fact that the whole weekly stamina thing was a ways to appease both sides of it not being daily, and it not being removed. And now you just go to 1 side and completely screw over the other people who would like to keep stamina? You guys didn't hear anything about us wanting to keep it until you confirmed it was already being remove. As if we had no god damn say in the matter. You're really showing how much you value your playerbase. It's actually ridiculous and I'm looking forward to this game getting taken away from this company because this is just stupid. Why is it that you give the minority what they want? When I look back at that poll of who wants to keep stamina and people who want it removed. 55% of people want stamina, while only 45% don't. And then you look at it "YEAH THAT'S WHAT OUR PLAYER BASE WANTS, THEY WANT IT REMOVED."

  • GaivanGaivan Member
    edited June 2018

    No no no no no, do not do this. This will kill the game just like it did with DFO. Closers was meant to be played with fatigue, removing it will have disastrous effects.

  • DraciusenDraciusen Member
    edited June 2018

    While it is not impossible to manage the issue of bots/gold farming, inflation is still real. Let's assume gold farmers/botters are magically taken care of and their effects on this game are negligible***. You will still have a hardcore group of players capable of and willing to farm basically like bots. Even semi-casual players will have spare time to dedicate a few days of hardcore endless grind; all resulting in tons of gold entering the economy far more quickly than if there was a fatigue system in place.

    *** I sincerely doubt bots can be handled that well immediately since it's always a reactive thing - you have to observe their behavior firsthand before you can find ways to counteract it.

    Back to inflation. Prices will inflate more quickly than usual in this game without fatigue; while it may not reach JP levels it will definitely make desirable items in this game even more difficult to get than usual - both because there are a lot more people capable of buying out 500m cap prices, and runs are still limited. The amount of epic items in the economy is identical to the amount before fatigue was removed - the best dungeons are still limited by run-caps, and it's not like the rates are changing. I also doubt more washing machines would be purchased because there's no fatigue limit, which means rare accessories/costumes/enhancement items entering the economy remains the same.

    So where does this leave the new/casual player? Sure, they're no longer whining about fatigue, but how are they going to feel now when you tell them that they'll have to no-life in order to complete with the prices set by people who have been farming for months since they removed fatigue?

    In the end, the wealth gap in the playerbase simply expands- this will happen regardless, but will definitely happen much faster without fatigue. And the prices on the market tend to lean on the side of the richer players. Your casual players are not making any more money than they would have with the fatigue system in place. The items that everybody wants to purchase are not going to be any more common in the market than they would have without fatigue. This game's prices have already been increasing rapidly. People are already feeling the effects of inflation; and this is with the fatigue system.


    Let's take a look at another game with a heavily regulated economy: Black Desert Online. It's extremely popular (way more than this game will ever be), with so many players actively farming/grinding/bossing that rare/desirable drops aren't practically non-existent like in this game. They are however, just as contested in this game, if not more so. There's no limits on anything really, you can always find something to grind. Thus, everybody in that game has to hardcore grind (granted, mostly AFK) to keep up with prices.

    Everything in the market is highly regulated in that game to keep everything from exploding; and for good reason. However, to get anything in that game you can't farm yourself, you have to live and breathe in the market boards. Staring constantly; checking, refreshing, rushing over when a notification pops up. Mashing keys and praying you were the chosen one in the bids; or hoping your connection is good enough for the buyout phase.

    At least in BDO you can pretty much get everything you want cosmetic-wise for real money. In this game, you've got to deal with washing machine BS, and even whales have to deal with the market if they're unlucky enough to get a full set of what they want in the style they want. In Closers, you've basically have the potential for whales and F2P players competing for the same costumes when it comes to a popular character; while in BDO it's just F2P players clamoring for costumes.


    Again, this is assuming bots are already taken care of. Throw those into the mixture and you can see how this game's economy will simply be nuked without a single thought.

  • @Nihiru said:

    @Cochese said:
    Using a system like fatigue, to balance an economy and keep bots away, is not the only solution. There are many MMOs out there, that do not have a fatigue system to accomplish this and we are working with Naddic to address these concerns you've voiced here.

    1) Bots and Gold Selling - we are digging into bot detection, looking at solutions that others have used. This is a high priority regardless of fatigue. Look for more info on this soon. We are still working out a best solution but we plan on better identification of bots, improvements to impede bots through learnings, banning bots in waves, and then sharing that with all of you. We are committed to keeping Closers a safe and fun place to play.

    2) Conversion of Stamina Pots - we are doing a live audit to see how many pots are out there and how many pots are on individual accounts. This will inform our decisions on how to safely remove these from player inventories without a big wave to the economy.

    3) Black Market - there are cap limits and restrictions to help keep the item costs in a reasonable place. On the other side of this, that does limit the amount of epic items, due to their perceived value being much higher. Inflation is part of all economies and we are looking at the best way to ensure that items are sold fairly among players and to enhance the overall value of the market place.

    4) Japan - we learned from their experience and will not be the same. This is a different implementation for our region.

    Your concerns are valid and we are actively working to ensure this is a good thing, not a thing that breaks something else. This has been the hottest topic since we started way back in Alpha. I've heard all the reasons fatigue is bad, I am not surprised to now hear all the ways it was good. Please keep the feedback coming, this will all make for a better implementation for your game.

    "Many MMOs out there" are not like Closers. There are many specific aspects to a game that makes the game its own and stably holds it together. Fatigue has held Closers together and many users have already expressed how. "Many MMOs out there" don't have fatigue because they are designed with those limitations out of mind. Closers was built with fatigue in mind.

    Nothing you said here bolsters confidence in your decision to remove fatigue, in fact it almost detracts confidence.
    You're working on a solution to bots? But you still want to rip out fatigue so these bots can run rampant for god knows how long before you push out the solution?
    Inflation is part of all economies? This isn't real life, this is a game. Games can implement gold sinks to mitigate the effects of inflation. Closers has no such natural gold sinks, a bulk of gold costs are spent circulating the black market.
    A different implementation for our region? How about not at all? That's quite different.

    Thanks you !

  • ArunoSesugawaArunoSesugawa Member
    edited June 2018

    @Draciusen said:
    While it is not impossible to manage the issue of bots/gold farming, inflation is still real. Let's assume gold farmers/botters are magically taken care of and their effects on this game are negligible***. You will still have a hardcore group of players capable of and willing to farm basically like bots. Even semi-casual players will have spare time to dedicate a few days of hardcore endless grind; all resulting in tons of gold entering the economy far more quickly than if there was a fatigue system in place.

    *** I sincerely doubt bots can be handled that well immediately since it's always a reactive thing - you have to observe their behavior firsthand before you can find ways to counteract it.

    Back to inflation. Prices will inflate more quickly than usual in this game without fatigue; while it may not reach JP levels it will definitely make desirable items in this game even more difficult to get than usual - both because there are a lot more people capable of buying out 500m cap prices, and runs are still limited. The amount of epic items in the economy is identical to the amount before fatigue was removed - the best dungeons are still limited by run-caps, and it's not like the rates are changing. I also doubt more washing machines would be purchased because there's no fatigue limit, which means rare accessories/costumes/enhancement items entering the economy remains the same.

    So where does this leave the new/casual player? Sure, they're no longer whining about fatigue, but how are they going to feel now when you tell them that they'll have to no-life in order to complete with the prices set by people who have been farming for months since they removed fatigue?

    In the end, the wealth gap in the playerbase simply expands- this will happen regardless, but will definitely happen much faster without fatigue. And the prices on the market tend to lean on the side of the richer players. Your casual players are not making any more money than they would have with the fatigue system in place. The items that everybody wants to purchase are not going to be any more common in the market than they would have without fatigue. This game's prices have already been increasing rapidly. People are already feeling the effects of inflation; and this is with the fatigue system.


    Let's take a look at another game with a heavily regulated economy: Black Desert Online. It's extremely popular (way more than this game will ever be), with so many players actively farming/grinding/bossing that rare/desirable drops aren't practically non-existent like in this game. They are however, just as contested in this game, if not more so. There's no limits on anything really, you can always find something to grind. Thus, everybody in that game has to hardcore grind (granted, mostly AFK) to keep up with prices.

    Everything in the market is highly regulated in that game to keep everything from exploding; and for good reason. However, to get anything in that game you can't farm yourself, you have to live and breathe in the market boards. Staring constantly; checking, refreshing, rushing over when a notification pops up. Mashing keys and praying you were the chosen one in the bids; or hoping your connection is good enough for the buyout phase.

    At least in BDO you can pretty much get everything you want cosmetic-wise for real money. In this game, you've got to deal with washing machine BS, and even whales have to deal with the market if they're unlucky enough to get a full set of what they want in the style they want. In Closers, you've basically have the potential for whales and F2P players competing for the same costumes when it comes to a popular character; while in BDO it's just F2P players clamoring for costumes.


    Again, this is assuming bots are already taken care of. Throw those into the mixture and you can see how this game's economy will simply be nuked without a single thought.

    I concur on this, previous prices has already inflated quite a bit regarding a few notable items... For example, Synchro Fibers and Quality Assurance Seals have their prices upped in just a few short weeks when comparing the prices now than it was a few weeks ago... Let's not even talk about the costumes since that's already a given

  • I only agreed on the Currently inflating Prices in the BMs, everything else will be seen in the near future

  • You should just remove the fatigue on the characters leaving the account fatigue untouched so we have the freedom to use the fatigue on any character

  • I hope they haven't forgotten about Elite/Platinum players with this change. Right now the best thing is the free lootbox, but that's held back by having the main costume drop pool be something that's constantly on the BM. If nothing else, we should be able to choose an additional lootbox from whatever promotions are currently running to compensate for the fatigue potion being useless. This would also help increase the variety of costumes in the BM instead of having all the Elite/Platinum players put the same pirate ones up with their daily free lootbox.

  • F2Ps can preemptively hang themselves starting now. :ok_hand:

  • Do not make this update.

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