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  • Put sylvi in high tier then list is good B)

  • BearShoesBearShoes Member, Administrator, Moderator, EME Staff, Player Moderators
    edited January 2019

    Well put together, fun, funny, and informative. I'd recommend attempting to make it more readable, maybe through a sheet as opposed to a doc (which would foster a "tier list" look a little better), but overall I have no problem looking at this and knowing what you're talking about, or feeling like YOU know what you're talking about.

    Good stuff!

  • @WeebNationTIME said:
    Put sylvi in high tier then list is good B)

    I'm pretty biased since I'm Seul main but-

    If that's the case then WG, Violet, Yuri, Soma... a lot of characters would be moved up as well.

    Whether it's Soma's raw damage, her hiboxes and instant/unreactable FM1; WGs high burst, unpredictable mobility and decent FM game; Violet's early command normal cancel tech, her ghost hitbox drag tech or straight up massively consistent damage; Yuri's eternal invul frames, and wide hitboxes + damage with Roundhouse-

    Don't get me wrong though, I've written essays on the flaws of some of these characters too. The point is they can be strong... but they can also be very weak, with punish points and issues you might not otherwise think about.

    Some characters will dominate some matchups over others. imo Tein is insanely busted but Yuri star is a huge threat and lingering iframes means Tein can't shine with his FM game. On the other hand Vio is crazy solid but will struggle a lot vs Nata's ground lasso and have a very tough matchup both in neutral and vs his FM lineup.

    Pretty much agree with the tier list honestly. I might even just chuck J and Nata with the everyone else tier, but they are very well rounded and I can definitely see their placement there.

    All of these gifs (and trust me I have plenty more) only highlight some of the idiocy - both in favour and against - a lot of the characters there. I feel it's a fair judgement as it is.

  • edited January 2019

    well no wonder u disagree with him. Since you play main sylvi and u actually edited in the list of him ... . Ofc u defend your char. For me sylvi as well with J nata lvl ;):p And i played sylvi as well a little. And i have very shit gear with her compared to my J and 600k raw difference/ No 30 token skills/ not even 40% cdr and it was sometimes way easier than with J even vs geared and quite "solid" players

  • HAHAH i love it! Im not a pvp player but i can understand a little more now and with a fun way. I tought Soma was a top tier list, because im soma main and i realy think she is good at 1x1. But pvp seems other world tho.

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited January 2019

    @Mirakujo said:
    well no wonder u disagree with him. Since you play main sylvi and u actually edited in the list of him ... . Ofc u defend your char. For me sylvi as well with J nata lvl ;):p And i played sylvi as well a little. And i have very shit gear with her compared to my J and 600k raw difference/ No 30 token skills/ not even 40% cdr and it was sometimes way easier than with J even vs geared and quite "solid" players

    But did you try playing Violet? Or Soma? Or WG? Or Yuri? Or any of the other characters in the "Everyone Else tier"? What if you try playing Yuri and find out that you have the same ease of success that you would with Sylvi, or perhaps you try out WG and end up finding him even easier?

    What's there to say that other characters shouldn't be moved up or down?

    At the end of the day it's not viable to play every character with decent gear at a high level, so we postulate on our experiences fighting versus the character. With discussions with other high level players and some labbing here and there, we can establish exactly what it is that makes a character strong or weak.

    But if I were to go on what I think about all of Sylvi's kit in particular right now... well then we'd have a thread easily three times the size of my Seha one, so I'll leave it at this...

    EDIT: I also didn't actually write that list (if that's what you mean by edit), that was all breaker. I was asked to do some corrections/proofreading, but I didn't really get the time to do that, so my input there only goes as far as my discussions with him regarding our thoughts on character strengths.

  • but while Nata relies on FMs Tein doesn’t need his FMs to win

    could someone quote this to Bork? k thanks

  • Just look at tids, He cant win without his teins fm's

  • @WeebNationTIME said:
    Put sylvi in high tier then list is good B)

    Guess Onii chan is right

  • why luna is top 1 on your list?
    guess you face always pro luna and not pro tein?
    luna has mobility / good poking skills / op damage.
    but sylvi has more op damage than luna.
    and also tein has all good traitsin pvp tein must be top 1 tier not luna because tein has the map control/goodcombo's/mobilty/easy grabs/unbeatablefm3/easy catching fm etc. most cancerous that never got nerfed.

  • Timebreaker1Timebreaker1 Member
    edited January 2019

    Luna is at the very top of the tier list because that's where she belongs, and I am FULLY aware of what Tein is capable of. I do have to ask, what's your experience level in pvp; as in how many matches played and time spent do you have?

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited January 2019

    @yOhfLy said:
    but sylvi has more op damage than luna.

    I uh...

    Are you sure?

    Like 430k Emp A+C no B Harpe.
    Or 260k no Emp A+C on Homing Aegis.
    And another 281k Homing Aegis but without the 30% damage increase from Master cube, which would bring it up to 365k...

    These are from an existing Luna with only +13s and no Yod title vs 25% phys def.

    With optimal conditions Luna can easily break 500k Harpes and 350k Homing Aegis. And that's not including the 180k Pegasus Kicks, 300k Aegis Charges, 350k+ Meteor Jumps, 300k Winter Triangles...

    I don't know man I'm pretty sure that Luna has the most consistently high damage output out of any character right now without a doubt.

    Before I get asked about my experience as well, I think I'm no slouch:

    I've seen what Luna can do and she sure as hell seems more capable than any other character, even Tein. Here is a video from KR's rank 1 Tein, Tia Reol, getting absolutely destroyed by a Luna (who whiffs most of her Homing Aegises, which could have been solved just by turning the camera before throw). A 496 winstreak broken by none other than a Luna.

    And if you think a 496 winstreak is proof enough for Tein being the strongest then... How about I present you with a 99% wr Luna, at nearly 1.4k wins to only 13 losses.

    I don't think it's even possible to argue a point for her not being the strongest character.

  • we are not kr we are na server you guys really should pvp in na server.
    and if you face this monster borkdogo/cowshu/codehacks lets see if you will say luna still rank 1.
    luna yeah has op damage but play wise tein will outplay luna.

  • and one more thing why sylvi is not on the top tier? some comment to your thread put sylvi on high tier list and why levia is in there instead of sylvi?
    maybe your teins in eu is not that good thats why you are saying luna is top 1 in ranking because most of the pro in your server is using luna. while our tein in na is so op.

  • and lino i know your pro in pvp.
    30k raw sylvi and 30k raw luna who you think wins if they trade damage this is based on my experience thats why i dont trade damage with sylvi.
    and dont compare our server to kr because we have our own op chars here.
    this luna and tein can be rank 1 depends who holds it.
    but in our server rank 1 here is tein.

  • I only see a runner tein who camps 24/7 in the corner no wonder he lost :*

  • yeah see play wise and you win that is tein.

  • Timebreaker1Timebreaker1 Member
    edited January 2019

    Just because Seulbi has high damage doesn't make her comparable to Luna, and maybe you're the one who isn't fighting good Lunas; it's not as simple as just doing more damage, proper use of damage reductions, iframes and movement is what wins trades, not only that Luna has the ability to outplay all of Tein's FMs. Lin was just giving examples of KR because they are usually seen as the more experienced players and besides gear difference there is not a huge gap in terms of pvp balance between KR and NA, just a few buffs, some of which go to Tein and you seem to ignore the fact a Tein with an almost 500 win streak lost it to Luna. Regardless this tier list is based on my quite credible experience and is my own opinion, you are a Luna player so you are very bias as to how powerful she is and that's clear.

    Also the fact you think Seulbi is better than Levia just makes me want to disregard everything you say but no shade.

  • @Mirakujo said:
    I only see a runner tein who camps 24/7 in the corner no wonder he lost :*

    Because that's the only way he could win. He was FM scumming to catch her with all 3 FMs. If the Tein approaches he's completely vulnerable due to lack of dr and will incur more damage by running in than by running away.

    What he did was the best course of action. Stack as many FMs as possible then FM > FM > FM and win off that, since it's evident he can't compete vs Luna in the chip damage section.

  • There is only 1 char that covers the whole map and this is tein with his mine field :*

  • @LinoCrelier said:

    @Mirakujo said:
    I only see a runner tein who camps 24/7 in the corner no wonder he lost :*

    Because that's the only way he could win. He was FM scumming to catch her with all 3 FMs. If the Tein approaches he's completely vulnerable due to lack of dr and will incur more damage by running in than by running away.

    What he did was the best course of action. Stack as many FMs as possible then FM > FM > FM and win off that, since it's evident he can't compete vs Luna in the chip damage section.

    Just play like nays, hes always full in, doesnt care. Even plays better with +11 core

  • every one in na knows sylvi is better than levia because levia got nerf right.
    here in na if you have op damage + talent your op in pvp and just as i said dont compare our server to kr we have our own op chars here we are talking about our server not kr.
    and im not defending luna im just telling you that tein is the most op char here in na.
    top1-tein
    top2-luna
    top3-sylvi
    this one is my top1 to 3 pvp tier.
    and im still wg main in pvp i just try luna like i tried soma in pvp.
    im not really that pro like you guys but i do have experience in pvp.

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited January 2019

    @yOhfLy said:
    here in na if you have op damage + talent your op in pvp and just as i said dont compare our server to kr we have our own op chars here we are talking about our server not kr.

    Uh...

    The gifs that I showed with Luna damage weren't from KR. They were from EU. The other gifs that I showed, like Soma damage for instance, are actually even worse in NA/EU, like in this example.

    Our damage is already KR tier.

    I have also personally run tests, since I lab a lot. With 4.4k PvP raw and a spread of 21/20/14, as well as 33% empowered damage, I can hit around 520k Electric Storm, but only IF-

    The enemy is over 60% HP for Master Cube, they're crit damage res debuffed from Magnetic Infustion, I'm Empowered with x13 EML stacks, am packing 100% penetration with Phase Ductility and 5-stack Exploit Weakness, have the 7% damage taken increase from Expert Cube Gravity Flux and have Supercluster Charge on deck. With all ABCs procced (Electric Storm has no forced ABCs).

    That's a lot of conditions for 520k.

    Also I have a +14 Weapon Core and my Electric Storm has been tuned to be Level 26.

    Meanwhile, our resident Levia Jekkt who has worse gear than me, at a +13 Core - and I'm relatively certain has worse conditionals - can hit a 630k Waltz, so long as he's Empowered and has landed at least one hit of Signet on me (for the crit damage res debuff) with Mamushi Swamp and Summon Familiar buffs on. Also his Waltz is only Level 20.

    Don't believe me? Here's the video.

    I'm hit for a total of 627k. That's 160k (dive) + 467k (slam). Then if you want you can count the 78k from EX Horn and 14k from Mamushi (it always ticks on approach regardless). If he had EX Singu up and decided to Flash of Pain right after, he'd could have done around 280k (since no 90% HP condition cube from EX Singu). For reference I have 25% psi defence. I don't think Jekkt stacks any penetration but I can ask him for stats later. Don't forget Waltz always procs back, so getting high damage is much easier to do consistently.

    Do you still think that Sylvi hits harder than Levia? When, well, mathematically Levia hits far harder than Sylvi? Let's not forget Cluster charge involves blowing an 18s CD iframe, whereas Waltz can be done every 10 seconds without issue.

    Also this is without Epsilon Waltz mod. If he used that, he'd deal around 750k-780k with Waltz. Just Waltz, and nothing else. If he had a +14 like me, and assuming good rolls, it would be realistic to expect 850ks if not higher.

    Are you really, really sure that Levia is worse than Sylvi? What about the fact that she can retain eternal dr, or the fact Sacrifice is a lingering iframe, or that her grabs have ridiculous hitboxes, lingering iframes and are at a low cooldown?

    And...

    @yOhfLy said:
    every one in na knows sylvi is better than levia because levia got nerf right.

    After all, I can also say "everyone in eu knows tein is not op because he never got nerf right". Except that... he is OP. The argument you make is flawed at its core.

    Sylvi did get nerfed. EX Supercluster iframe was increased in cooldown from 12 to 18 seconds (which indirectly nerfs her Electric Storm damage since less opportunities for charge) and Magnetic Infusion had its ranged reduced by about 30%. Not to mention the bug on the new Ion Cannon's Time Freeze, which means it simply can no longer be used to counterfreeze FMs. Also, despite Wormhole being re-worked to be instant, it got a nerf to its damage: now if you want to do as much damage as the pre-change Wormhole, 3 bits need to be consumed on cast, which makes an already difficult mechanic to handle even harder.

    She got buffed, but she also got nerfed. Just like Levia, who also got buffed and also got nerfed. She got buffed with increased Movement Speed on Signet, no longer gets damage penalty on HP condition from EX Fangs, gets faster Flash of Pain stacks and has gained forced conditionals on multiple skills (which is very important for PvP).

    Do not base your opinion on which characters have been buffed or nerfed by naddic. If that was trustworthy information regarding the strength of characters, we'd actually have a balanced game.

  • man you really like to write long respond sorry im so lazy to read it.
    "to see is to believe" this is what i believe.
    in an actual fight pro sylvi vs pro levia same raw or tcp sylvi can outplay levia your a sylvi main dont lie man.
    what you dont want your sylvi got nerf? i accept luna got nerf but please nerf tein also.
    tein fm3 unbeatble is that balance? or luna op damage is that balance for you?
    any pro sylvi here in na can kill pro levia thats why most of pro players saying sylvi is op.
    and tein is the most top cancer i do base on experience or actual fight not in your damage number.

  • man i can handle levia pro whales and op damage with my wg but when it comes to sylvi lmao it hurts so much sylvi damage.
    thats why i tried luna if i can trade damage with sylvi turns out i lose if i trade damage and i win if i successfully poke sylvi.
    and luna vs luna is manageble to beat only teins really hard to beat even if i use wg and luna thats why base on my experience for me tein is rank 1 because tein has all the good traits in pvp.

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited January 2019

    @yOhfLy said:
    sorry im so lazy to read it.

    If you're too lazy to read the counter arguments I make, all with video evidence regarding the claims you make, then all that tells me is to not bother to try and change your mind. No matter the quality of the points I make or the evidence I present will matter if it's never looked at.

    At least watch this, since although you claim to base things "on actual fight" rather than "damage number", it still seems that "damage" and "trading" are the main things you talk about. Look at the numbers or read the description.

  • maybe in your server levia is op and luna.
    but in our server sylvi/luna/tein is op here.
    maybe your levia is too good thats why you put it on the list.
    while here in na sylvi has the most op damage in pvp when luna is not yet release.
    see some one comment on this thread to put sylvi in the top list because they experience it.
    here in na we rather fight pro levia than pro sylvi that is scary man.

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited January 2019

    The person who commented to put Sylvi on top is TIME. He's not an NA player, in fact he (used to) play on EU. I firmly believe a lot of his apprehensions from Sylvi come from our matches together, of which he is yet to see much success. The person who quoted and agreed with him is Lait. That's his IRL sister I believe, and she also does not PvP.

    I should re-iterate these are EU players, not NA.

    When you see a pro Levia, which you might see one after the server merge, you'll be tempted to reconsider.

  • yeah thats what i said to see is to believe or i want to experience it to reconsider.
    thats what im saying sylvi is more op than levia because we experience it here in na server.

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