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Why is Seha considered a Top Tier character in PvP? An analysis.

This was initially going to be a response to the following thread:

https://forums.enmasse.com/closers/discussion/4696/why-is-seha-considered-a-top-tier-character#latest

But as it was posted on feedback and not General Discussion, I thought it better to move that thread to this place in the forums. At first I thought it a meme; it had to be right!? Could any experienced PvPer in their right mind claim that Seha is weak in his current state? Surely a jest!

No. I was wrong.

So here I will go into a detailed analysis as to why Seha is a despicable character as he stands in the current meta; he has no unfavourable matchups and losing with him has more to do with his player continuously making significant mistakes throughout a round rather than actually being outplayed. Versus Sylvi, J and Yuri in the current meta, losing as Seha is borderline humiliating - at least at a high level of play.

What I'm about to provide as well is not feedback (though it can be taken as such - perhaps it will enlighten developers as to faults in Seha), as at least with KR Purification gears characters can kind of contest Seha's insane damage potential, but most of this is still applicable regardless of region or patch.

I'll preface this as I did in my tournament thread, which is with a pointer of my current PvP stats to know I'm not some PvP level 35 spouting salt.


This salt has been hard earned. Gonna go out on a limb and say it should be mandatory to have players preface all PvP complaints and suggestions with their match history, since it does give an insight to the experience a player actually has on the matter. When I say my salt has been hard earned I meant it, so sit around kiddos and get some marshmellows for this campfire because I'm about to recite the entirety of the bloody Bible starting with Genesis.

First I'll just establish the following in regards to axes for my explanations:

All of the following also applies exclusively to high level play. If you have less than 1000 matches under your belt, then really any balance opinions will be severely lacking. If an inexperienced Tein gets beat up by a J because he can't deal with Biomag, that's not the character being bad, that's the players not knowing the match-up. If you aren't at the very least PvP level 50, balance is a limited concern as you most likely lack the experience necessary to really comment on it and have much to learn.

Either way let's get to it.

Almost everything Seha does is better than any other character in the game. The abilities he has that aren't objectively better than others are irrelevant, because he can make up with it by being an all-rounder that will shut down any other character's tools, having intensely favourable match-ups with the entire cast.

Let's begin with the first argument that was proposed in the Feedback thread:

1 grab and 1 incredibly terrible standup

I'll concede to that. Seha does indeed have only one grab - granted its one of the best - and his current single restand is not that good, though with Special Agent coming tomorrow, he then has one of the best restands in the game instead.

Here is the first issue however: it seems the Feedback thread OP thinks Seha needs grabs and restands.

The thing with Seha in his current state is that he's a jack-of-all trades. He can do good combo damage, he can safe combo well due to great grab immunes and range, he has good catching tools and a great grab, he has permanent height advantage (and means to deal with it) as well as mobility, he can do good chip/poke damage, he can trade, has some of the best FM lineup in the game and has good 80% damage reduction skills (DRs).

It's not bad being a jack of all trades; Levia is a character that more or less fits this bill too. The problem is that he's jack of all trades, master of all.

Let's go through these points one by one (or try, before this devolves into a rant).

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Comments

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited June 2018

    This character is not insanely strong but also extremely easy to pickup by newcomers because you just don't really have to learn enemy drs, nor do you even have to concern yourself with catching or punishing their grab immunes because your chip/poke damage is the best in the game anyways. A match between a skilled Seha and another good player will most likely result in zero combos throughout the game. I've already said that a Seha doesn't need to try to catch and I repeat this statement again.

    Or well, for the Seha to not land any combos is an ordeal in and of itself when considering how many tools he has with which to land them. Either way, assuming good neutral on the end of both players, they will almost always have Cancel up in time to break out of a combo, or have to take sub 4 seconds tops worth of comboing before having to forcefully Cancel or take too much damage.

    This means that matches boil down to chip/poke, and as we know, Seha will win at that game every time.

    Ultimately Seha can force the enemy to chase after him and play his game, but is still be able to beat any other character at their own game anyways, all without having to contemplace highly important 50/50 situations in neutral and in trades.

    His range, mobility (esp height advantage), insanely all-rounded skills and True Damage mean that he wins at all trades, at chip, at defensive and aggressive play, at combo damage and just about anything that any character could ever hope to do better.

          And all this is without even touching on FMs!

    His FM1 is an auto-aimed attack that can also be delayed to punish pre-emptive iframes, just like with Shot or Focus Fire, except that it has passive SAC and will guarantee a catch. Unlike Tein, Sylvi or J's (or even Yuri vs aerial opponents) FM1s, Seha's FM1 is really easy to land, and is among some of the fastest FMs in the game, which make counter FM-freezing it borderline impossible for most characters. Even some mobility skills cannot get you out of range after activation, as the "lock-on" will have Seha chase regardless of their new position.

    His FM2 may be hard to aim but it's also overwhelmingly fast, and with the buffs it has a huge hitbox. When used at the middle of the stage, it will hit characters just about at 3/4s of the way in y axis. Oh, it also hits at max jump height:

    https://i.gyazo.com/c1cef792b0e87670cbba8c7770939700.mp4

    So although it's tricky to use it's by no means a bad FM, especially when considering that in the worst case it can be used defensively to counter FM-freeze an enemy FM or just be used as an escape tool from other FMs in the rare occasion Dash is not up, meaning it is a superb defensive FM.

    But hey, you can also just use the hitstun from the dive itself then cancel into a Skyslash for a free combo without even having to land the smash!

    And Seha's FM3?

    Well...

    If this-

    https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyStrangePigeonAllenHuhu
    https://i.gyazo.com/21a1d9d9ee21d885f547d3b97ba3e4bb.mp4

    -isn't enough to prove that an instant cast FM with some of the lowest FM3 recast CD in the game that happens to have Tina FM3-tier hitbox and can be used straight from an off-screen dash is busted, then I'm not sure what will.

    It does at least get nerfed in KR though!

          So what is the conclusion to be taken from this?

    As I stated at the start, Seha is a jack of all trades, master of all. In some matchups, he becomes a character that cannot be outplayed. Assuming a passive run-and-gun playstyle, Seha can punish other characters but not be punished himself, always being out of range or having a Cancel ready for catches without sustaining any significant chip damage throughout the match. Even characters that are dependent on their FMs to complement their neutral, like Sylvi or Yuri, fall short on the matchup due to Seha's permanent height advantage (and also his not requiring to care about others' height advantage/being effective at punishing them).

    The only way to win against a Seha is if he quite literally kills himself, dashing directly into grabs, not reacting to FM freeze (pre-emptive dashing), or being overly greedy/playing too aggressively.

    Naturally there are some ways around Seha. Lasso can punish aircamping, as can Hell's Trap or Levia's Empowered FM2. Tein likely holds the best matchup of the cast vs Seha (although still in Seha's favour by far) due to aerial Tornado, Mjolnir's infinite height hitbox and FM2/FM3 pressure.

    But in the end Seha can just fly away and stay out of danger after a Cancel, bombarding enemies without much of a care for the enemy's Cancel or drs.

    To actually make this worthy of a feedback thread response, there are things that could be done! What if Seha had to choose between True Damage and non-True Damage in a "toggle" manner, taking a significant damage nerf to skills when his True Damage is activated? If Firegrinder didn't hit for 150k through all resist and only 50k, it would still be significant damage for a single skill, and if Seha wants to get the full damage off he would then need to disable True Damage and work around 80%drs.

    Then there are other things which KR has already done. Nerf FM3's activation time/hitbox, or gut dash's mobility. In KR Seha has a significantly smaller Dash distance than what we have right now, but I would much rather have Sehas actually need to manage their mobility. What if Dash couldn't be stacked? What if Shot did not reset but only reduced Dash cooldown by 5 seconds?

    What if Pulse Cannon wasn't an 80%dr skill? What if Empowerment was faster but did not have grab immune and/or 80% tacked onto it?

    All of these could help make Seha a more balanced character. As it stands however, he's anything but, with Seha standing as the reigning King of PvP, far above any other character in terms of power.

  • Seha dont need any buffs or any nerfs. He is good at current state

  • I'mma just put this in here...the saying is jack of all trades great at all master of none(I believe) otherwise great post

  • GonzohGonzoh Member

    Too lazy to read all down vote

  • @Gonzoh said:
    Too lazy to read all down vote

    NotLikeThis

  • edited June 2018

    Dont forget the terrible current Shockwave. Which has a 50/50 chance wether the enemy lands infront or behind the target.

  • SEHA :s

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited June 2018

    @Mirakujo said:
    Dont forget the terrible current Shockwave. Which has a 50/50 chance wether the enemy lands infront or behind the target.

    Doesn't necessarily matter, since you can just use the first Shockwave cast for super armour and sod off. The issue lies in the fact that Seha doesn't need to combo to win, but he also doesn't need to work around neutral which other characters that function in chip (like Sylvi for example) must.

    What matters if they slide out of Shockwave if you can just consistently hit 100k Chain Explosions/Bursts over the course of a match?

    Not to mention this is an unfortunate bug with many skills: https://clips.twitch.tv/BashfulAuspiciousShieldPipeHype

  • Thank you for your Huge work , the proofs are here and can't be contested ! This Char is Overpowered , really not funny to play against , And to people who love play seha in pvp do you really enjoy free wins ? nerf him or give us some weapons to defeat him cuz for now we can't do nothin and it's really frustrating .

    Sylvi is the light o:)

  • If u remove Empowerment Grab immun, you should remove the Grab immun of Health Drink as well. lul 50k Fire grinder nerf when it has most of the time "1 hit" skill and is "most of the time" not being hold. Other chars hit even more with skills. 50k for 1 hit skills would be way too low. Since a skilled seha wont hold Fire grinder.

  • edited June 2018

    They should better fix the hitbox from Nata,https://clips.twitch.tv/EnthusiasticBrainyPandaWow
    and also about point blank. Point blank vs Nata is so buggy as hell and vs other chars as well.
    1. It grabs but dont give iframe,
    2 .It grabs and it gives iframe
    3. It somehow hits but doesn't grab, gives iframe.
    4. It somehow hits, but doesn't grab, gives no iframe
    5. It Grabs and the enemy glitches out and flys over the map

    ->https://clips.twitch.tv/WonderfulCarefulSamosaNononoCat

  • It seems that somehow(?) my Conclusion post got deleted? I'll get around to seeing how to fix that.

    @Mirakujo said:
    If u remove Empowerment Grab immun, you should remove the Grab immun of Health Drink as well. lul 50k Fire grinder nerf when it has most of the time "1 hit" skill and is "most of the time" not being hold. Other chars hit even more with skills. 50k for 1 hit skills would be way too low. Since a skilled seha wont hold Fire grinder.

    50k is too low for 1 hit skills?
    But Firegrinder isn't a one hit skill, now is it? Is it not a skill that you're meant to hold and pulse out multiple waves of damage to hit your opponent? Why must it have all of its damage frontloaded while other similar skills have its damage spread out?

    Seha could still get 150k damage with Firegrinder, except that then he'd need to actually play the game and work around enemy 80%drs. You know, do that thing that every character in the game has to if he wants to have damage.

    Also why remove immunity from Health Drink? J only has 2 grab immunes, Seha has 3! And if you talk about iframe from Body Massage, then how about Tein, who only has 2 rather unreliable grab immunes? Or perhaps Tina, who has only one grab immune but then fridge as her only other iframe? I suppose she has Dive, which ironically functions in much the same way that Lunging Slash or Seha's own Dash would. Violet, though unreleased, is in a similar predicament, where she has only one real grab immune and one iframe, with her second grab immune being rather short and on 60 seconds CD (though can be reduced). Seha's mobility more than warrants the stripping of one of his grab immunes, or at least 80% dr.

  • SEha has more grab Immun's because he has only 1 grab compared to other characters.

  • @Mirakujo said:
    They should better fix the hitbox from Nata,https://clips.twitch.tv/EnthusiasticBrainyPandaWow
    and also about point blank. Point blank vs Nata is so buggy as hell and vs other chars as well.
    1. It grabs but dont give iframe,
    2 .It grabs and it gives iframe
    3. It somehow hits but doesn't grab, gives iframe.
    4. It somehow hits, but doesn't grab, gives no iframe
    5. It Grabs and the enemy glitches out and flys over the map

    ->https://clips.twitch.tv/WonderfulCarefulSamosaNononoCat

    Issues here are desync.
    1, 2, 3 and 4 are all present with every other grab in the game that functions in the same way. Yuri Spiral, Neck Grab, Tail Whip, WG's Grab, etc.

    1. is something exclusive to Nata. He has a "slide" property that passively have him get away from hitstuns. This also occurs with FMs and general hitstuns and is not exclusive to Point Blank but rather Nata as a character.
    1. It is a point blank problem, because it happened at least 1x time vs every character that somehow jumps/dashes
  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited June 2018

    @Mirakujo said:
    SEha has more grab Immun's because he has only 1 grab compared to other characters.

    Sylvi has 2 of the smallest grab immunes in the game, yet she also only has 1 grab. Yuri only has grab immune on lunging slash and no other skills, with her only instant iframe really being EX Spread Shot (technically grab but only up-ver on ground, and not quite instant).

  • Yuri maybe has 1 grab immun, but a lot of iframes. Seha has only 1 iframe and this is Point blank when it grabs and lands on the ground. EMP=Grab immun, Aura blade= Grab immun, Fire grinder when holding = Grab immun

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited June 2018

    @Mirakujo said:
    5. It is a point blank problem, because it happened at least 1x time vs every character that somehow jumps/dashes

    Something like this I believe?
    https://i.gyazo.com/913ca8ee5074a1e04290c2ad2f42dd68.mp4
    What happened in your clip was a Nata exclusive since he retained momentum from when you grabbed him.

    This happens to many things. A Levia using Serpent's Waltz or FM1 vs Sylvi's Bus for example, also triggers it.
    It's not Point Blank exclusive, unfortunately, as much as I wish it were.

    Its simply that Nata retains momentum regardless of dashes/in neutral state, which means this can happen without the usage of any dash skills as well vs him.

  • inb4 all the seha mains start arriving and be like:

  • :blobsweat:

    tbh that's ok since I do talk a lot about how Seha can use his tools to be OP.
    So if less people read it that means less people know about things like Focus Fire iframe punish.

    Maybe they won't read for long enough till we get all the revamps and puri gear to put the other characters at the similar damage levels :pray:.

  • Lexy6Lexy6 Member

    my pvp experience(in other server) vs Seha is like this
    before SA promotion he's like an air superiority type fighter plane,but after his SA promotion he's more like a bomber type fighter plane

  • I took my time and read through everything, and i just want to say, thank you so much for making it all clear to me. I see where i was wrong and I appreciate the time and detail you went through to provide this response.

  • LinoCrelierLinoCrelier Member
    edited June 2018

    @RMWF6FTMM4 said:
    I took my time and read through everything, and i just want to say, thank you so much for making it all clear to me. I see where i was wrong and I appreciate the time and detail you went through to provide this response.

    And just you saying this to me fills me with a lot of respect for you man. Really does make me feel like writing this up was all worth it.

  • yOhfLyyOhfLy Member

    his like wearing bkb and blaidmail damn that damage so op

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