revealing drop rates for RNG box prizes/getting rid of them

considering many places are now considering them gambling, and already have put forth or considering legislation to ban them, is there any chances that we can either get more forthcoming information on their drop rates, getting rid of them in lieu of fixed prices in store, or even outright getting rid of them? they use incredibly manipulative psychology in order to capitalize on the monetization of addictive behavior, and if there is something that should worry the fatigue people about future outcomes of the game, is predatory business practices like RNG boxes.

the psychology behind it is a principle called variable rate enforcement, where a player is basically working for a reward by making a series of choices, but the reward is incredibly unpredictable. the reinforcement is incredibly effective; in the 30s a psychologist named b. f. skinner conditioned animals to stimuli in closed chambers known as skinner boxes. even after the rewards were long gone, several subjects still continued responding to as much as hundreds of trials trying to get back rewards that were no longer available. the response comes in the form of dopamine, the same system targeted by drugs, which reaches maximum effectiveness at maximum uncertainty. a.k.a gambling.

what this means is, they can keep certain types of players on a precipice of feeling a need for more, and feeling rewarded.

below is an interview with a redditor who spent 16000 dollars on loot boxes, and nearly ruined his family, with other inputs from people like him
http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2017/12/14/the-heartbreaking-story-of-how-one-man-spent-12000-on-final-fantasy-and-nearly-lost-his-family

it seems like almost every new costume is introduced through bitna, and from a profit standpoint, it's good for the business, but not good for the consumer in the long term. there should be either protections, to prevent sad stories like this from happening, such as our foreign neighbors have in their gacha mobile games, or replacing the system in lieu of fixed prices like our competitor games, such as blade and soul, or black desert, or even wow for fluff purchase price comparisons.

those protections include:
-limiting purchases of cash currency per month
-listing the % rates of the rare prizes
-a flat out warning that it's gambling, and you may not always win
-instituting a system to work toward loot boxes through PVE progress

thank you for reading, and any additional feedback would be appreciated.

Comments

  • Man, this story is really heartbreaking. Just WTF are people thinking when doing so? It's just a problem of our time. After stories like this one i don't want to be like this person. But I agree that sometimes this "Time-limited purchase" things is really affecting humans like Apple of Eden(hope that i write it right. if you don't understand - just search Adam and Eve(Byblos)).
    Hell, this is really dangerous to play F2P games, especially when you can't resist your wantings.

    Protections would be really good. But if developers targeting only money, then... nothing good awaits

  • Quality post! But your prayers fall on deaf ears for EME does not listen.

  • Yeah the law let's EME hide the drop rates. Eastern companies are being hit that they will need to show their percentage of the drop rates.

  • well limiting how much gacha/loot boxes we could buy each month would just anger some players and we do get free washing machine gacha from some events. just by playing we recently got 2 cheer leader gacha boxes and I got a 2 star wig, although it may seem useless to some it still made nice greater phase fiber by salvaging it. the gacha system sucks for any mmo game but EME handles it better then a lot of other games do. at least we can get some of them for free and have a few outfits that can be bought directly. just don't expect to get anything good from this and the feeling of expecting to be disappointed helps me control how much or how often I buy them. sometimes you get lucky but more often then not you don't so never expect good results. if someone spends 16,000 dollars on gacha/loot boxes for digital items then they have a serious problem and should learn to manage their money better. the most I ever spent on a single gacha was 100 dollars cause I was stressed about everything else but I was still mindful of my money and was well aware the results may be horrible which is why I never play more then one gacha a year. I would never spend 16,000 dollars on a gacha even if I did have the money that kind of money to carelessly spend, that is just wasteful.

  • @Nathaniel697 said:
    Man, this story is really heartbreaking. Just WTF are people thinking when doing so? It's just a problem of our time. After stories like this one i don't want to be like this person. But I agree that sometimes this "Time-limited purchase" things is really affecting humans like Apple of Eden(hope that i write it right. if you don't understand - just search Adam and Eve(Byblos)).
    Hell, this is really dangerous to play F2P games, especially when you can't resist your wantings.

    Protections would be really good. But if developers targeting only money, then... nothing good awaits

    its playing into addictive behaviors and dopamine rewards. recent studies have shown that even animals as smart as crows will even pick a higher quality tier prize, rather than a guaranteed prize, inside a box that takes numerous random button presses to open.

  • @HibikiTachibana said:

    @Nathaniel697 said:
    Man, this story is really heartbreaking. Just WTF are people thinking when doing so? It's just a problem of our time. After stories like this one i don't want to be like this person. But I agree that sometimes this "Time-limited purchase" things is really affecting humans like Apple of Eden(hope that i write it right. if you don't understand - just search Adam and Eve(Byblos)).
    Hell, this is really dangerous to play F2P games, especially when you can't resist your wantings.

    Protections would be really good. But if developers targeting only money, then... nothing good awaits

    its playing into addictive behaviors and dopamine rewards. recent studies have shown that even animals as smart as crows will even pick a higher quality tier prize, rather than a guaranteed prize, inside a box that takes numerous random button presses to open.

    So, the crows take high quality tier random or guaranteed? Or they take random but high, but not guaranteed but not so high?

  • edited July 2018

    If this costume will be RNG as well...

  • @CodeOrder said:
    Yeah the law let's EME hide the drop rates. Eastern companies are being hit that they will need to show their percentage of the drop rates.

    Sadly, the ESRB does not consider this an issue.

  • @Nathaniel697 said:

    @HibikiTachibana said:

    @Nathaniel697 said:
    Man, this story is really heartbreaking. Just WTF are people thinking when doing so? It's just a problem of our time. After stories like this one i don't want to be like this person. But I agree that sometimes this "Time-limited purchase" things is really affecting humans like Apple of Eden(hope that i write it right. if you don't understand - just search Adam and Eve(Byblos)).
    Hell, this is really dangerous to play F2P games, especially when you can't resist your wantings.

    Protections would be really good. But if developers targeting only money, then... nothing good awaits

    its playing into addictive behaviors and dopamine rewards. recent studies have shown that even animals as smart as crows will even pick a higher quality tier prize, rather than a guaranteed prize, inside a box that takes numerous random button presses to open.

    So, the crows take high quality tier random or guaranteed? Or they take random but high, but not guaranteed but not so high?

    so a group of crows were offered generic food, or high quality food. the high quality prize came in a puzzle box that would open after a random amount of pecks, while the generic food came in a one hit guarantee. after the crows figured out that there was better food in the RNG boxes, they ALWAYS went for the RNG boxes. (which shows how crazy smart they are at remembering, not many animals can link cause and effect, as well as repeating skinner's initial experiments).

  • @Mirakujo said:
    If this costume will be RNG as well...

    Is that Luna? Tell me that's Luna.

  • edited July 2018

    @Orenglaive said:

    @Mirakujo said:
    If this costume will be RNG as well...

    Is that Luna? Tell me that's Luna.

    Yeah it's Luna.

  • @NekoparaVanilla said:

    @Orenglaive said:

    @Mirakujo said:
    If this costume will be RNG as well...

    Is that Luna? Tell me that's Luna.

    Yeah it's Luna.

    I now know where my credits are going next

  • LaiyenuLaiyenu Member
    edited July 2018

    Considering RNG boxes are gambling, I wish they would reveal the rates. I can fully accept the rates are shit but I'd like to know how shit. If someones addicted they are gonna spend either way.

    On a second note about bitna, this is really ridiculous but why the fuck do they not put older costumes into the cash shop? DFO does this as well where they release a package (Although you can straight up buy it and not gamble for it) and then once its gone, thats it, you can never buy it again, forcing people to use bitna basically.

    Below is Knights Chronicle (mobile), they show all rates for every release / older releases on the summon page, as a result I'm MUCH MORE LIKELY to spend money in this game and not Closers. (its actually 30% chance to get an on banner unit, this pic is just overall rarity chance)

  • ArunoSesugawaArunoSesugawa Member
    edited July 2018

    @Laiyenu said:
    Considering RNG boxes are gambling, I wish they would reveal the rates. I can fully accept the rates are shit but I'd like to know how shit. If someones addicted they are gonna spend either way.

    On a second note about bitna, this is really ridiculous but why the fuck do they not put older costumes into the cash shop? DFO does this as well where they release a package (Although you can straight up buy it and not gamble for it) and then once its gone, thats it, you can never buy it again, forcing people to use bitna basically.

    Below is Knights Chronicle (mobile), they show all rates for every release / older releases on the summon page, as a result I'm MUCH MORE LIKELY to spend money in this game and not Closers. (its actually 30% chance to get an on banner unit, this pic is just overall rarity chance)

    4.2000% for an SSR is quite good... considering GBF is at....

    then again, we do have Suptixes (buy the ticket to choose 1 thing of your choosing, skipping the rng) and then there's Legendary Festival and Flash Festival Banners that double SSR rates up to 6%... for 3 days?

  • @metafalica said:
    Sadly, the ESRB does not consider this an issue.

    Yes they might be paid to pretend everything is fine. Lol

  • @ArunoSesugawa said:

    @Laiyenu said:
    Considering RNG boxes are gambling, I wish they would reveal the rates. I can fully accept the rates are shit but I'd like to know how shit. If someones addicted they are gonna spend either way.

    On a second note about bitna, this is really ridiculous but why the fuck do they not put older costumes into the cash shop? DFO does this as well where they release a package (Although you can straight up buy it and not gamble for it) and then once its gone, thats it, you can never buy it again, forcing people to use bitna basically.

    Below is Knights Chronicle (mobile), they show all rates for every release / older releases on the summon page, as a result I'm MUCH MORE LIKELY to spend money in this game and not Closers. (its actually 30% chance to get an on banner unit, this pic is just overall rarity chance)

    4.2000% for an SSR is quite good... considering GBF is at....

    then again, we do have Suptixes (buy the ticket to choose 1 thing of your choosing, skipping the rng) and then there's Legendary Festival and Flash Festival Banners that double SSR rates up to 6%... for 3 days?

    Fate/Grand Order at 1% for SSRs.... Sword Art Online: Memory Defrag SSRs at 3% and Unison League at ~6% for SSRs.. I should stop play FGO lmfao

  • @Laiyenu said:
    Considering RNG boxes are gambling, I wish they would reveal the rates. I can fully accept the rates are shit but I'd like to know how shit. If someones addicted they are gonna spend either way.

    On a second note about bitna, this is really ridiculous but why the fuck do they not put older costumes into the cash shop? DFO does this as well where they release a package (Although you can straight up buy it and not gamble for it) and then once its gone, thats it, you can never buy it again, forcing people to use bitna basically.

    That is just how EME runs this. In KR you get 4 costumes on release like we do but 2 costumes are on EMP shop permanently (you can buy them even now), 1 costume is in bitna and the 4th costume is either from bitna again or in gel conversion (varies from costume to costume).

  • @ArunoSesugawa said:

    @Laiyenu said:
    Considering RNG boxes are gambling, I wish they would reveal the rates. I can fully accept the rates are shit but I'd like to know how shit. If someones addicted they are gonna spend either way.

    On a second note about bitna, this is really ridiculous but why the fuck do they not put older costumes into the cash shop? DFO does this as well where they release a package (Although you can straight up buy it and not gamble for it) and then once its gone, thats it, you can never buy it again, forcing people to use bitna basically.

    Below is Knights Chronicle (mobile), they show all rates for every release / older releases on the summon page, as a result I'm MUCH MORE LIKELY to spend money in this game and not Closers. (its actually 30% chance to get an on banner unit, this pic is just overall rarity chance)

    4.2000% for an SSR is quite good... considering GBF is at....

    then again, we do have Suptixes (buy the ticket to choose 1 thing of your choosing, skipping the rng) and then there's Legendary Festival and Flash Festival Banners that double SSR rates up to 6%... for 3 days?

    Well like I said its 30% chance for an on banner unit (or 7% per single since its 3 units on a banner)

  • @HibikiTachibana said:

    @Nathaniel697 said:

    @HibikiTachibana said:

    @Nathaniel697 said:
    Man, this story is really heartbreaking. Just WTF are people thinking when doing so? It's just a problem of our time. After stories like this one i don't want to be like this person. But I agree that sometimes this "Time-limited purchase" things is really affecting humans like Apple of Eden(hope that i write it right. if you don't understand - just search Adam and Eve(Byblos)).
    Hell, this is really dangerous to play F2P games, especially when you can't resist your wantings.

    Protections would be really good. But if developers targeting only money, then... nothing good awaits

    its playing into addictive behaviors and dopamine rewards. recent studies have shown that even animals as smart as crows will even pick a higher quality tier prize, rather than a guaranteed prize, inside a box that takes numerous random button presses to open.

    So, the crows take high quality tier random or guaranteed? Or they take random but high, but not guaranteed but not so high?

    so a group of crows were offered generic food, or high quality food. the high quality prize came in a puzzle box that would open after a random amount of pecks, while the generic food came in a one hit guarantee. after the crows figured out that there was better food in the RNG boxes, they ALWAYS went for the RNG boxes. (which shows how crazy smart they are at remembering, not many animals can link cause and effect, as well as repeating skinner's initial experiments).

    And what analog for humans? Does it mean that people choose random box with Cybernetics, or no?

    P.S. Yeah, i have problems with seeing links with animals-humans examples.

  • metafalicametafalica Member
    edited July 2018

    @Nathaniel697 said:

    @HibikiTachibana said:

    @Nathaniel697 said:

    @HibikiTachibana said:

    @Nathaniel697 said:
    Man, this story is really heartbreaking. Just WTF are people thinking when doing so? It's just a problem of our time. After stories like this one i don't want to be like this person. But I agree that sometimes this "Time-limited purchase" things is really affecting humans like Apple of Eden(hope that i write it right. if you don't understand - just search Adam and Eve(Byblos)).
    Hell, this is really dangerous to play F2P games, especially when you can't resist your wantings.

    Protections would be really good. But if developers targeting only money, then... nothing good awaits

    its playing into addictive behaviors and dopamine rewards. recent studies have shown that even animals as smart as crows will even pick a higher quality tier prize, rather than a guaranteed prize, inside a box that takes numerous random button presses to open.

    So, the crows take high quality tier random or guaranteed? Or they take random but high, but not guaranteed but not so high?

    so a group of crows were offered generic food, or high quality food. the high quality prize came in a puzzle box that would open after a random amount of pecks, while the generic food came in a one hit guarantee. after the crows figured out that there was better food in the RNG boxes, they ALWAYS went for the RNG boxes. (which shows how crazy smart they are at remembering, not many animals can link cause and effect, as well as repeating skinner's initial experiments).

    And what analog for humans? Does it mean that people choose random box with Cybernetics, or no?

    P.S. Yeah, i have problems with seeing links with animals-humans examples.

    The human comparison would be a slot machine or even the lottery.

  • ArunoSesugawaArunoSesugawa Member
    edited July 2018

    @Laiyenu said:

    @ArunoSesugawa said:

    @Laiyenu said:
    Considering RNG boxes are gambling, I wish they would reveal the rates. I can fully accept the rates are shit but I'd like to know how shit. If someones addicted they are gonna spend either way.

    On a second note about bitna, this is really ridiculous but why the fuck do they not put older costumes into the cash shop? DFO does this as well where they release a package (Although you can straight up buy it and not gamble for it) and then once its gone, thats it, you can never buy it again, forcing people to use bitna basically.

    Below is Knights Chronicle (mobile), they show all rates for every release / older releases on the summon page, as a result I'm MUCH MORE LIKELY to spend money in this game and not Closers. (its actually 30% chance to get an on banner unit, this pic is just overall rarity chance)

    4.2000% for an SSR is quite good... considering GBF is at....

    then again, we do have Suptixes (buy the ticket to choose 1 thing of your choosing, skipping the rng) and then there's Legendary Festival and Flash Festival Banners that double SSR rates up to 6%... for 3 days?

    Well like I said its 30% chance for an on banner unit (or 7% per single since its 3 units on a banner)

    30% chance for an on banner unit is already very good... considering here's what we have right now, Summer characters rate up (for no fuckin reason they decided.. "we should get the summer characters out for no reason")

    here's an example.

    guess who of those is the summer character.

  • @Pokechu said:

    @ArunoSesugawa said:

    @Laiyenu said:

    @ArunoSesugawa said:

    @Laiyenu said:
    Considering RNG boxes are gambling, I wish they would reveal the rates. I can fully accept the rates are shit but I'd like to know how shit. If someones addicted they are gonna spend either way.

    On a second note about bitna, this is really ridiculous but why the fuck do they not put older costumes into the cash shop? DFO does this as well where they release a package (Although you can straight up buy it and not gamble for it) and then once its gone, thats it, you can never buy it again, forcing people to use bitna basically.

    Below is Knights Chronicle (mobile), they show all rates for every release / older releases on the summon page, as a result I'm MUCH MORE LIKELY to spend money in this game and not Closers. (its actually 30% chance to get an on banner unit, this pic is just overall rarity chance)

    4.2000% for an SSR is quite good... considering GBF is at....

    then again, we do have Suptixes (buy the ticket to choose 1 thing of your choosing, skipping the rng) and then there's Legendary Festival and Flash Festival Banners that double SSR rates up to 6%... for 3 days?

    Well like I said its 30% chance for an on banner unit (or 7% per single since its 3 units on a banner)

    30% chance for an on banner unit is already very good... considering here's what we have right now, Summer characters rate up (for no fuckin reason they decided.. "we should get the summer characters out for no reason")

    here's an example.

    guess who of those is the summer character.

    GBF has way too many characters to get anything specific without suptix/sparking at this point.

    Yeah... and it's absolutely Mental.

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