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Prodigy release patch thoughts and concerns

Introduction

Hey everyone, I’ve seen a lot of discontent and critical feedback about the latest patch and I’d like to try and offer my perspective. I was originally going to respond to a thread about these issues but then so many more threads came up that I felt like it would be ignoring the others if I only responded to one, thusly I am making this post. I want to mention that in no way am I trying to discredit or lessen the opinions brought that are not my own. I would merely like to offer a different perspective and provide some information that might let you see the situation in a different light. Now, with that said, even before this patch containing the Prodigy hit the live servers, there was a negative stigma from the downgrading system and a preview of the cash shop oriented focus. Fortunately downgrading was removed, but much of the cash shop oriented items were not touched. I have seen that because of this removal of the downgrade system, players are under the impression other p2w methods are being forced on them. While I certainly agree to an extent, as the game has slowly phased out methods to acquire cash shop currency and items, I believe that some things, namely badges, are being incorrectly cited as a main focus. We should instead be directing our energy towards solutions to acquiring things for the normal player such as pet gems, pets for pet set bonuses, accents, and rare emblems, as well as improving the new player experience.

Badges

The first point I’d like to address is about costumes. Costumes have been available from the start of the game in the form of Kagerfield badges. If you paid 15 inferior badges, you could obtain a random costume piece (from a select pool) in a specific slot. In addition, you could also salvage these to receive 10 or 15 inferior badges. This made some looks highly accessible, but these costumes were not free, and they came at an opportunity cost of increasing your badge level to further strengthen your character. Once you had a costume piece in every slot, you no longer require these random pieces to progress your character further and they exist only for aesthetics. Kritika is a free to play game, that being said, I am not surprised at the recent change to the costumes and their availability. Despite that, there was an undocumented change to Kagerfield and that he now breaks down any costumes for 10 or 15 average badges (30 or 45 inferiors). This moves the costume system into a place where they can charge for cosmetics and allow players who farm for random costumes to enhance their character more quickly by salvaging costumes they farm; by making appearance altering items more difficult to acquire it will allow for other things (like downgrading) to stay out of the game. Kritika has been very generous in the costume department for a long time compared to all other MMOs I have played, and they did not implement this until there were several other ways to acquire costumes for stats. While the pool of options to choose from for free cosmetic customization has decreased, the availability for purely statistical value is still there, it just needs to be farmed for. A criticism I do have is that the costume attribute changer should still be purchasable from Kagerfield. I believe that this item was very helpful and should remain in the game should the desire to change ones selected attribute for a costume piece instead of getting an entirely new one.

If anyone is wondering, here are the ways to currently obtain costumes:

-60 Action Zone Coins for NPC costume in Windhome (random piece of your class)
-1000 Red Megaboss Souls for the Guard costume in Xanadu (all 9 slots of your class)
-Farm Belladonna’s Manor in Starhenge (Eeri and Belladonna can each drop 1 box for prodigy/rogue)
-Farm Letter Runs in Xanadu (3 star intruder can drop NPC costume box of all classes)
-Starhenge Daily Surprise Box (can contain a random NPC costume box of all classes)
-Farm Luciana’s Pavillion in Xanadu (NPC costume box for Psion)
-Farm Sentinel’s Way in Xanadu (NPC costume box for Monk)
-Farm Memory of War in Starhenge (NPC costume box for Gunmage)
-Farm Memory of Annihilation in Starhenge (NPC costume box for Warrior)
-Farm Perumagion Pathway in Starhenge (NPC costume box for Reaper)

The costume situation is a tradeoff, rather than just a straight removal. We will receive more badges overall for our efforts, but our costume selection has decreased without expending Kred or participating in events for costumes. Overall, the whole situation wasn’t handled extremely well and there should have been more transparency as to why they were moving in that direction, as well as the change that the costumes break down into green badges instead of white ones should have been noted.

Prodigy scroll event

The second point that is worth discussing is regarding the prodigy scroll event. While this event is extremely rewarding for those players who spend money or have a large amount of kred available to them, it feels inherently bad that these are gated behind the cash shop. The leveling event for Prodigy gives you 3 scrolls which will provide you with minimal reward and only serve as a means to encourage you to spend money in order to get more scrolls for the good items. Encouraging players to spend isn’t inherently a bad thing, but making these kind of items with no means to get them through grinding or players efforts is disheartening. These scrolls should have been farmable in some fashion, encouraging players to play the game rather than just rewarding those who pay.

Let’s talk about some numbers regarding the prodigy scroll event. Each Prodigy Scroll is worth roughly 500 kred in regards to the deals, granted you get items at discount at the same time but there is generally heavy RNG involved when it comes to getting the items you want from these deal bundles. If you buy Kred in the largest amount available via EMP, you will receive Kred at roughly a 20% bonus on your investment. 12,000 EMP will cost you $100 (USD) which roughly equates to each dollar being worth 120 Kred which makes a prodigy scroll is roughly equal to: $4.1

Let’s do some basic math:
To obtain one of the new emblems is 10 scrolls (5,000 kred / $41.6)
To obtain a Swimsuit Selector is 6 scrolls (3,000 kred / $25)
To obtain a Lifegaurd Costume Selector is 15 scrolls (7,500 kred / $62.5)
To obtain a Glittering Complete Winds Selector (legendary pet) is 50 scrolls (25,000 kred / $208.3)

Now, all that being said, the argument could be made that these are just bonuses tacked onto purchasing normal items. While that is a very good argument, the total value of what you are purchasing is not seen as worthwhile to compensate. Items in general feel too expensive, and it leads to a situation where players feel compelled to spend enough for this failsafe. In the case of enhancement items, these feel overpriced, and the gotcha items likely won’t get you what you’re looking for on average which, again, leads to the point where these are seen as the means to obtain the item and not as a failsafe. In the past, these failsafes were not in place and I’m glad to see that they are, but I think we can take it one step further in the right direction and adjust the acquisition method on these fail safes that isn’t so gated behind purchasing poor chance boxes or adjust prices accordingly and make it feel like a nice bonus rather than required.

Comments

  • MorrigainMorrigain Member ✭✭

    Hi,
    Lets start with the good. Actually the removal of the Kagerfeld costumes and the buff for badges obtained by destroying costumes is nice i think. As u already said there are many ways to get a free costume to fill ur stat needs. If u want to play fashion kritika the cashop should be the way to go thats fair. Also the removal of the downgrade chance is stellar A+ for making that happen. And thats it.

    The things that bug me most about the game are pet coin gambling exclusive pets, carry run meta ,kagerfeld badges in mysteriouser box, the fm and arena ranking systems, some general bugs and EM lack of respones to bugs.

    Pets from gambling boxes are a bad practice to begin with but to get the highest value pet u have to hope to get a high rarity pet from the rng boxes to then destroy it for a moderate amount of pet coins to then gamble with those pet coins for an elusive pet. this is even an unfair practice to paying consumers since u could spend alot of money and still dont get what u wanted.

    Carry run meta. Its a great revenue stream for high end players and shit for everyone else. High end players make millions a day to carry other players through the endgame dungeons and , since the droprates are abysmal , the one getting carried most often gets nothing out of the deal and has to come back next week to gift gold to the high end players again.

    You have to do alot of dailies and buy alot of arena badge boxes to get a full set of purple badges. And a full set of purple badges is pretty powerful so its fair that u have to wait a long time to get those. ofc u can speed up the process by making alts and thats ok but having a full set of 120 purple badges as a reward in the mysteriouser box is another lvl of p2w that just doesnt need to be there.

    FM and Arena ranking rewards below top 10 are not viable for our low playerbase. Since most of the time we dont even have 100 players in an fm ranking the rewards tier under top 10 , top 11-10%, will never be met and even the 11th ranked player wont get this reward since its bugged somehow. Now the 11-10% rewards are the last that feature kred and since this reward tier cant be reached u wont earn kred below place 10. Now since the top 10 in every class are populated mostly by alts of high end players its almost impossible for new players to get some kred. either rework the reward tier to 10-20 place or try to include kred into the reward tiers like 11%-20%, etc.

    It's ok to make mistakes and to write into the patchnotes that daily dangerzones got changed while in reality they didn't can happen. But it happened in the pts patchnotes and was reported and then it happened again in the live patchnotes which is just ridiculous and the fact that we dont even get an official response is just sad. At least they could admit the mistake edit the patchnotes and maybe if they feel generous let us know what went wrong and when it will be implemented but we get nothing. Next up , Prodigy classes dont even have a selectable arena and fm ranking, its such a basic thing and if it would be patched in the upcoming hotfix it would be fine but it isnt even acknowledged.

    There is probably more but you get the point , there are a few good changes but a boatload of mistakes and negative changes and decisions with every patch it feels like em is getting more and more desperate to squeeze money out of players. Wouldn't be surprised to get the shut down news by december.

  • SpooklesSpookles Member, KOL ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018

    Seems backwards that they added a way to make a Pirate weapon before being able to craft Dusk/Reide/Harkon gear and accessories. A vast majority of this patch feels really aimed at the top end players and cashers/whales. Most people I know are still stuck on Abelard ( buying runs every week for a month and a half).

    • Why is Thermalar not sellable at this point?
    • Why not add crafting for Dusk gear/accessories BEFORE pirate crafting?
    • if you are going to remove Kagerfeld costumes, at least make the costume boxes that drop "piece selectors" rather than random pieces.
    • could we PLEASE get some catch up mechanics. Eerie is still ridiculous even having all the gear from the previous dungeons. Its like at this point you need the gear from the dungeon you are in to be able to run that same dungeon at all.
    • Whats the point in the PTS if nothing changes from the PTS build to the live build? There is no way you guys didnt know about the "Selectable CR dailies" issue.
  • AganiceAganice Member

    I would like to know the explanation behind EME's/ALLMs decision to remove the costume boxes from Kagerfeld store. Not to mention that the costume stat changer has been removed without notice. I haven't seen nor heard the player base asking for this kind of change.
    This one thing was a large blessing for a majority of the new players. This includes myself as well, when I was quite new to this game. Let's be honest, depending on your RNG and whether you have the Piglet pot or not, it could take up to months before you can get a full set from farming the dungeons that drop the costume boxes. The guard costume is an exception, ofcourse. If new players are already forced to farm a lot or to pay for costumes in the cash shop, then they wouldn't want to keep playing the game. Perhaps some would put effort and dedication, but for how long?

    @RomanHoliday said:
    If anyone is wondering, here are the ways to currently obtain costumes:

    -60 Action Zone Coins for NPC costume in Windhome (random piece of your class)
    -1000 Red Megaboss Souls for the Guard costume in Xanadu (all 9 slots of your class)
    -Farm Belladonna’s Manor in Starhenge (Eeri and Belladonna can each drop 1 box for prodigy/rogue)
    -Farm Letter Runs in Xanadu (3 star intruder can drop NPC costume box of all classes)
    -Starhenge Daily Surprise Box (can contain a random NPC costume box of all classes)
    -Farm Luciana’s Pavillion in Xanadu (NPC costume box for Psion)
    -Farm Sentinel’s Way in Xanadu (NPC costume box for Monk)
    -Farm Memory of War in Starhenge (NPC costume box for Gunmage)
    -Farm Memory of Annihilation in Starhenge (NPC costume box for Warrior)
    -Farm Perumagion Pathway in Starhenge (NPC costume box for Reaper)

    Roman, you forgot to mention about the Holy/Dark costumes from the Fractured Memories shop. I know that it's a very long way to obtain it, especially if you don't use alts, but it's still a free costume nontheless.

  • RPN7NPCCG6RPN7NPCCG6 Member, KOL ✭✭
    edited September 2018

    @Spookles said:
    Seems backwards that they added a way to make a Pirate weapon before being able to craft Dusk/Reide/Harkon gear and accessories. A vast majority of this patch feels really aimed at the top end players and cashers/whales. Most people I know are still stuck on Abelard ( buying runs every week for a month and a half).

    • Why is Thermalar not sellable at this point?
    • Why not add crafting for Dusk gear/accessories BEFORE pirate crafting?
    • if you are going to remove Kagerfeld costumes, at least make the costume boxes that drop "piece selectors" rather than random pieces.
    • could we PLEASE get some catch up mechanics. Eerie is still ridiculous even having all the gear from the previous dungeons. Its like at this point you need the gear from the dungeon you are in to be able to run that same dungeon at all.
    • Whats the point in the PTS if nothing changes from the PTS build to the live build? There is no way you guys didnt know about the "Selectable CR dailies" issue.

    There is no need to make TRADEABLE gear craftable, and that should never happen. TBH, making empress craftable wasn't necessary either, they could just buff it's droprate a little. Now there is no much point to run pirate den anymore. Thermalar is still best weapon in many regards. New dungeon boss isn't even fey/human, and first boss is vulnerable to thermalar procs, that keeps thermalar way stronger than empress, which is only good for arena.
    Talking about needing eeri gear to run eeri, isn't that eeri accessories are super cheap anyway? Same will be with new accessories in no time. Just dont be lazy and put wrath charms on them and you ll be able to do any dungeon in game. "Meanwhile, did my first eeri runs with deathguard set on a first day of it's release. Git gud, learn the game before speaking nonsense".
    Some things change from PTS build, again, no downgrade system on enhancing in live patch. That's apparently great and more important than CR scaling dailies, but ye, some people are here only to criticize.

  • RPN7NPCCG6RPN7NPCCG6 Member, KOL ✭✭

    @Aganice said:
    I would like to know the explanation behind EME's/ALLMs decision to remove the costume boxes from Kagerfeld store. Not to mention that the costume stat changer has been removed without notice. I haven't seen nor heard the player base asking for this kind of change.
    This one thing was a large blessing for a majority of the new players. This includes myself as well, when I was quite new to this game. Let's be honest, depending on your RNG and whether you have the Piglet pot or not, it could take up to months before you can get a full set from farming the dungeons that drop the costume boxes. The guard costume is an exception, ofcourse. If new players are already forced to farm a lot or to pay for costumes in the cash shop, then they wouldn't want to keep playing the game. Perhaps some would put effort and dedication, but for how long?

    Again, how all other games exist then, I wonder? Name me any f2p game with free cosmetics, I dare you. You guys charge bucks for some ridiculous skins in fortnite or blade&soul, but allm is suddenly such a sinner for limiting access to fashion. Again there are means in game to get kreds and buy these costumes in a kred shop, 125 kred for a piece you want isn't all that much really, I bought a lot of costumes like this. And there are means to farm gold and buy costumes for gold from players or on ah, again I bought many costumes this way.

    But ye, having an NPC which is called Costume Shop not selling any costumes looks kinda ridiculous :/

  • Holy damn, aren't y'all crybabies. Fire up that Mastercard and stop complaining, servers ain't gunna pay for themselves.

  • RomanHolidayRomanHoliday Member, Player Moderators mod

    I took a shot in the dark with this post and making it so lengthy I was worried that everyone would just skim through, hit the like button, and call it a day. Thank you folks so much for taking the time to read it and post some responses! I know that council often tends to work behind the scenes in what we say or do but we're really trying to get you all a better experience. Having responses like these that are highlighting the problems you are facing really go a long way to help us prove our points and show them that there is cause and reason for our words, as we experience the same issues and concerns that you do.


    @Aganice Thanks, I forgot about that costume! In regards to your points about the costumes being a boon as you start, I personally don't feel the same way. Working towards something and achieving it is something I really like in video games. Kritika is a grindy game and I feel that if you don't have the dedication to work towards a costume, you won't have a good experience for the rest of the game. Giving me something I can try for and accomplish without having to resort to paying money is great, even if it might take a little while; it will be rewarding to the players who take the time to do so. I do know that these costumes give stats and they can be helpful as you level, instead of offering permanent costumes, something I would suggest instead is temporary costumes that can be given out fairly freely. I don't think that relying on costume stats early on is a good way to fix the new player experience and we should keep searching for other ways to power them up that aren't focused on cosmetics. Your experience will obviously differ from mine and I appreciate your unique perspective on the matter, just wanted to give my two cents.


    @Morrigain I think you make some great points, specifically I wanted to mention these:

    The divide between the lower cr / newer player base and the old / higher cr player base is very noticeable. Additionally, the method of obtaining premium currency (kred) is limited to 1,000 kred from arena monthly and then the other half is gated by players who tend to dominate the rankings in FM in which newer players have little chance to compete. Also, the carrying meta is fairly bad and furthers the problem of relying on a single strong individual rather than building up your character and completing it yourself. Shifting the gold income from the lower players and moving it to the higher ones makes for a weird situation in where a couple few people have all the gold and most of the newer population are gold starved, increasing the divide between the two.

    I hear you about the boxes and how it feels like efforts are being negated by a lucky roll or p2w. I know many people spent a long time getting their badges and having them come so easily feels like a form of pay to progress that is quite rapid and instantaneous.

    Mistakes definitely do happen and that's forgivable, but there seem to be a lot of them and blatant ones with no mention of a fix, or repeated ones. Hopefully they move forward and use this release of a popular class to their advantage and learn from the past.


    @Spookles While I don't agree with everything you've said, I think that you're definitely on the right track and I'm glad you're able to openly share your opinion. There is certainly discontent surrounding a lot of the new player experiences. We should have better transitions for gear and danger zones, as well as more catch up mechanisms. Nothing too extreme mind you, but as someone who's played for over a year, it takes someone a long time to do it organically on their own. If you find a guild or friend who can carry you through everything and give you the best stuff right away, you can get there fast but that's not a reliable method and won't work for people who are new to the game with no acquaintances. Instead of encouraging new players to be carried through things there should be a streamlined system in place to help get them on their feet and encourage them to stick around.


    @RPN7NPCCG6 Definitely hear you on the fact that costumes in other games don't come readily. I was surprised at how long the free costumes stayed. Farming up 1000 boss souls isn't so hard to do and will net you a full costume. I think the sense of wonder and accomplishment at achieving this is valuable in its own right. I think they can change the NPC costume shop to something more fitting and if they reintroduce the costume attribute reset voucher, I can definitely see more uses for Kagerfield's shop.


    Plenty of good things have been mentioned here already, and I think it's good to make these things open and public. Thank you all again for your thoughts and constructive criticism.

  • SpooklesSpookles Member, KOL ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018

    @RomanHoliday

    Just wanted to add onto your FM part. FM is really screwed up since there is prizes for brackets that dont exist since there isnt enough players in the brackets. The top 11%-20% reward is harder to get than the top 10 placement. They need to change these other rankings to be placement, not Percentage. Like 11-25th place, 35th-40th place, etc. The percentages dont work when you have less than 100 people doing it in each bracket.

    And again, the costume things sucks, but there is ways to make it less painful. The really rare costume drops should be selectors, not random pieces. Really annoying trying to get these sets and ending up with 5 of the same piece or ending up with a pile of invisible pieces.

    It feels like with each patch they are pushing that pay2win barrier just a little farther. At this point there is blatant pay2win stuff happening. People have moved the goalpost and now they call it "pay for convience" or "pay to progress". These new scroll shop items are completely over the top. To me it is all the same. If I have to play for like 3 months to accomplish the same thing it takes a casher 5 minutes to accomplish, its pretty much pay2win in my book.

    @RPN7NPCCG6

    Blade and Soul has tons of costumes that drop at a much higher rate than here. Tera has ingame costumes you get from Bams, and you can readily buy any costume you want in the auction house for usually a decent price unless its extremely rare or discontinued. Skyforge I have about 40 costumes, none of which I paid a cent for. PSO2 i have maybe 50 costumes, all bought for cheap from the market or gotten for free in game.

    Not saying that kritika is bad about costumes, but to say every other f2p game has no free costumes is just silly. They could have at least warned us that the shop was going away so we could by any missing pieces we wanted before it was gone. They basically did this whole thing in a pretty underhanded way is what gets me the most annoyed. They knew the change was coming and didnt say a word.

  • RomanHolidayRomanHoliday Member, Player Moderators mod

    @Spookles I'm not against having the FM brackets be weighted differently, it'd definitely help out a lot of the newer and less geared players. That's also a pretty fair criticism regarding the rare costume drops, having them as selectors would definitely help if you managed to get it to drop. Another solution could be that they break down into a material that when you collect x amount it would let you craft the piece you wanted. Definitely could have been handled better as I said in the main post, more transparency and communication aren't bad things.

  • ReiatzuReiatzu Member, KOL ✭✭✭

    There are a lot of important topics in this thread and it seems like a discussion is already taking place around many of them. I personally want to highlight and flesh out the topic around “Prime.” Prime is a very important stat in Kritika for character progression by increasing attack and unlocking different prime abilities. It allows some of the lower tier classes to be pretty decent and can completely change how a class plays. However, prime seems to be heavily gated behind cash shop items in our version and this gates off many players from ever seeing these prime abilities. Here is a current break down of acquirable prime:

    From gear:
    Pirate King or Empress weapon: 49 Prime
    Base Dusk gear and Antique gear: 25 Prime
    Enhancement levels: 2,5,7,12,17 Prime (at +13,+15,+17,+19,+21 enhancement respectively)
    Power Core: 15 Prime

    From Cash shop features:
    Blossom Emblem: 20 Prime
    Pet Bonus: 20 Prime
    New Accents 3 Piece bonus: 15 Prime
    Pet Gems: 20 from one Gem (26 attached to a legendary pet) with 66 being the max prime you can get from pet gems ( Amethyst fused with Amethyst and an Aquamarinne/Peridot fused with an Amethyst on a legendary pet)

    So lets say you are gear capped at max +19 dusk gear with +21 accessories, a prime power core, and an empress weapon. Though it is very difficult and takes many months of playing, it can be obtainable strictly via in game means. This puts you at 523 prime which is 77 Prime short of getting their last prime ability. So what options are left to get that 77 Prime? Players can get pet gems which is something they have to RNG the correct ones for which they then fuse for a higher tier and hope they RNG one with high rolls. With perfect rolls on 3 legendary pet gems they will be at 66 which would also require them to continually buy more gems to keep refreshing the 40 prime that are enchanted on. This still puts you short 11 if you had perfect rolls (very unlikely) which require you to get a blossom emblem by fusing emblems (very unlikely) or by buying cash shop boxes, pet bonuses which require cash shop purchases, or new accents which require you to RNG rare accents from the cash shop which you then fuse and hope you RNG into the right ones. All of these cash shop related items alone add up to 121 prime. So 121 prime are gated behind layers of RNG which are behind more layers of RNG in cash shop items. So if players wanted to unlock their prime 5 ability they would have to spend a significant amount of kred for very rare items in the cash shop (obtained via in game means or spending money). I am not going to comment or criticize their finance/marketing strategies but prime is very inaccessible for average players who arguably need prime stats the most to catch up. My suggestion would be to add prime gems sooner than later and/or add more base prime to gear. Prime gems won’t have a significant impact on the power curve since we are already close to the point where crit damage gems are better for damage than prime gems for most classes. And most veteran players will always be gear capped or close to it.

  • MeshakMeshak Member
    edited September 2018

    I wonder what the difference in CR and amount of money and or time able to be spent is of the people upset about the costumes vs the people ok with the change but upset about prime attribute and prodigy scrolls. It seems like its mostly the lower parts upset about costumes and upper saying suck it up.

    You say no free costumes is ok but you're upset they're charging so much for prime? Isn't it the same argument? They will charge what people will pay, period, its how it works. If we keep saying go ahead, take away free things its ok, how can we be mad they charge so much for the prime attribute? IMO @Spookles is right on the money on this, we are allowing them to move the goal post, then saying its ok on the one end but not the other.

    @RomanHoliday It can take many hundreds and if unlucky more than a thousand runs to get a full costume from a danger zone and months of buying starhenge boxes. Also saying kagerfield wasn't free is not really true. You did not have to pay cash for them. Any player could get enough arena points to get a few costume pieces even sub lvl 65 and sub 75k CR (ie the new free items you get at 65). Not everyone can get the 1000 Kred per month, let alone run starhenge or Xanadu on extreme. You are sort of making it sound like the annoying whiny little newbies are complaining over nothing, while you suggest other just as easy methods of getting a costume which in reality take weeks or months or cash to obtain. But then you say we need a better new player experience? Just as everyone else who suggests all the other easy ways to get costumes, you neglect to put how much time must be spent to use those other methods.

    Roman, I've told other people in game and on the forums to read your guides instead of asking for carries, I appreciate what you've done and written to help new players, but this post sounds like a high CR player complaining about high CR problems while deriding low CR people for complaining about low CR problems. "by making appearance altering items more difficult to acquire it will allow for other things (like downgrading) to stay out of the game." by this logic, you not only make it ok for them take one thing away to stop from adding something even worse, but you make it ok to take away from lower CR and new players to benefit high CR players.

    "the newest ultimate zone isn’t that much different in difficulty than pirate, and it sets the tone for players to catch up with decent drop rates" Whabuh? how many players can do eerie? Just put wrath charms on and do anything?(not romans statement) Seriously? What about soul gems and badges? how much CR do newer players not have due to just those things. Its not like new players can just stop being lazy and play hard for 2 months and get a bunch of costumes and be in pirate and if they aren't its their fault. But this is what a lot of the arguments make it sound like.(edited, this last statement was directed at arguments in general not Roman specifically but it sounded like it was, hopefully I changed it to properly reflect my meaning)

    I absolutely agree with your prime assertions, this game is a cash grab now, how else do you explain things costing money but expiring each month? I mean how much money do you have to spend per month to be at the top of this game? I don't think the costumes should be the big issue after this patch, but they are a reflection of the treatment of the lower CR population and newer players. The cost of prime, accents, emblems, pets and expiring items that are cash and rng should be addressed. But high CR issues should not be resolved at the expense of the low CR population.

  • SpooklesSpookles Member, KOL ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018

    /

  • RomanHolidayRomanHoliday Member, Player Moderators mod

    @Meshak Hiya, appreciate you stopping in and providing your feedback to the thread! In regards to your argument about costumes vs prime, these are two very different topics and can't very well be compared in their entirety. Cosmetics, while they give minor stats, are an entirely aesthetic object that serve to change your character's appearance while prime attribute serves to directly influence your character strength via large bonuses and breakpoints to important class defining interactions.

    I can definitely see how my mentioning of the new danger zone can be taken that way and that's my fault for ending the post like that. I was trying to round up a couple quick positive points so that I wasn't completely negative and could present the post to everyone and hear what they had to say; I should have spent more time elaborating on what I meant by that before posting it, rather than making a quick couple comments on the end for the sake of not making the post any longer. For the record, I would like to state clearly that I do not think new player progression is in a good spot. I have suggested (with other council members) ways to ease the player progression in the form of free costumes, weapons that level with you that aren't event based, and the removal or reduction of accuracy restrictions on danger zones to name a few. It still needs work, it's getting better very slowly but it isn't in a spot where I'd call it acceptable to leave unchecked. There is also a lack of in game information and guides to help players understand what to do and when to do it. Even reappraising and recalculating items can be daunting and unfamiliar to new players. This leads to a situation where players provide a lot of the guides that are outside of the game or answer questions in the Discord. While this solution might work in the short term, players can often times be left unheard in the Discord amidst the other players discussions. Having some form of system that allows players to learn where to go and what to do should be implemented to ease the knowledge progression which is something that isn't talked about heavily but I believe deserves more attention.

    To refer to my point about the new ultimate zone, eternal library, another part of player progression issues comes with their inability to bridge the gap between the danger zones. Having a danger zone that isn't harder than the current ones available means that players who are still in the stages of making their way to the end game aren't gated by an inability to close the gap. If you can access and complete Eeri, it means that you have the capacity to overcome Eternal Library. They did not make the requirements for the new danger outlandish or beyond the reaches of those who are currently in the stages of gearing up to tackle these challenges. As you mentioned, getting to and clearing Eeri is a difficult thing to do for a new player. Organic growth is important and we should move away from the carrying meta and encourage others to gain strength through their own means rather than relying on others to carry them and implement ways for them to do this through smooth transitions in gear and danger zones. Part of what might helps this would be the accessibility of prime gems for players to allow them to get a decent boost in their strength at a relatively low investment cost that sticks with them through all their gear.

    Having prime attribute be accessible from a lower CR and not distributed to be so top heavy would allow the pay to win items that are seen as a problem now to have less of an impact, as well as giving less developed characters a way to get their prime attribute bonuses; prime attribute should be more readily available for everyone, not just the high end players. Prime attribute is a very helpful way to increase the strength of your character, especially at certain break points. I mainly play Frost Mage and Void Monk who both benefit greatly from having prime attribute level 3. The increase in power level is fairly large just by achieving the abilities you acquire from it. You are, in essence, getting free bonuses in addition to increasing the power level of your character, and making the class itself more interesting. In addition, transitioning gear is a tough challenge as a new player and giving them prime gems will allow for a direct increase in strength over time that sticks with you and can even be transferred among your characters. Gems are something farmable and readily achievable that has means to acquire in game and would give players a goal to strive for in order to achieve higher prime bonuses and get interesting class bonuses.

    Having no free costumes isn't what I'd consider a great solution but it's one that I've come to terms with because of the nature of the free to play model. It makes more sense for them to make costumes harder to get rather than hinder a players progression through other means. As I mentioned previously in the discussions, I think that getting a free temporary costume when you start out is a pretty awesome idea and something they should consider implementing. In addition, talking with Spookles brought to attention the fact that the NPC costume boxes could do with some less RNG in the form of a selector. If players really want a costume though, the guard costume is by far the easiest method (other than paying) to acquire a non cash shop costume. Boss souls are a guaranteed drop assuming you have more than 0 RP and are available through most dungeons. Hard mode Starhenge (35k CR) gives you 8 boss souls per run and is readily achievable by the majority of newer players with the starting gear that you get. While you have to put some time in, it's not heavily gated by RNG and you can gain other useful materials with dungeons that do contain boss souls while you farm for this. It might not seem accessible but give it a couple hours and you'll get the stats that you need from the costumes, leaving room for you to start considering aesthetic options instead of purely stats.

    New players don't have it easy and they shouldn't be overlooked in favor of high CR players. Having you say that's what this post is about makes me understand that I didn't convey my thoughts adequately enough if it sounded that way, and I'm open to talk about it and expand on what can be done (this is the reason I made this post, to discuss things and come up with good solutions for the player base as a whole). I am a heavy advocate for the free to play model which allows for players to work towards what they need without feeling obligated to spend real world money. I don't feel that the means to obtain a costume for stats are outlandish and while the focus of this topic has been mainly centered around high end gear and prime, that's because it does not meet the criteria of acceptability when it comes to not having to feel obligated to spend real money. I think the topic of new player progression and the new player experience deserves its own topic because it's that important and has that many points to discuss. Thanks again for reading through the post and taking the time to share your thoughts. Ultimately, I want to improve the player experience for everyone and we can see the wide array of opinions and come up with the best solutions due to everyone providing their feedback.

  • ReiatzuReiatzu Member, KOL ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018

    @Meshak
    There was numerous discussions with the issues with costumes being brought up on this thread and other threads before. This thread to me seemed like a big discussion on the various concerns of the prior patch, so I brought up something that was briefly mentioned but not discussed in depth yet. If anything, prime affects new players much more than costumes. You seem quite new, so let me explain it a bit better. The argument of gating prime is not the same as costumes. Prime is a part of character progression, but costumes are more Aesthetics. Character progression tends to involve increasing various stat points while playing the game and those stat points lets you hit monsters for bigger numbers which then allows you to clear harder dungeons. If you do not have enough stat points or what we like to call combat rating, you will not be able to progress and clear harder dungeons. Now lets put those stat points behind a pay wall. What happens? Players who do not have enough stats cannot clear those dungeons and can't access content in the game unless they pay for those stat points. Who has the least stat points? Newer players. Who can't access these dungeons? Newer players. Does this have a significant impact on higher CR players? No Billy, they already have high stats, probably have max prime 5, and clearing end game 2 million requirement dungeons while they sit comfortably at 5 to 6 million combat rating. They can already access, clear content, and take all your money to carry you through runs, and all your kred by selling you their drops. What about costumes? You can farm 1,000 boss souls by doing Bella's manor(35,000 combat rating recommended dungeon) which might take a few hours at most. But, what if I am too weak? The story line eases you to a free set of gear that should put you around 50,000 Combat rating. Will not having a costume prevent me from doing other things in the game? No. What happens if I don't have a costume? Well Billy, you'll just look lame while fighting enemies.

  • ReiatzuReiatzu Member, KOL ✭✭✭

    @Aist
    I agree with everything you’ve said except for “No one other than the very top end people are actually able to enjoy the “endgame.” As someone farming end game, I don’t enjoy it and it becomes more and more of a chore every week to log on, trade carries, and hope for that one lucky drop. What I do enjoy is logging on weaker alts and working with a group of friends with lower CR to clear content. Sure we die a lot and it would be much easier to log on a stronger character and carry, but it’s much more enjoyable this way. Playing since CBT, no one that I’ve ever played with enjoyed this alt carrying system. Even now, some older players who quit asks me if the game is still based around trading alts and that they have no intention of coming back if it is. Alt trading is something end gear players just sucked up and did. Drop rates were bad and things were gated with limited entries when Shattered table came out. Starhenge felt a lot more natural as you said. People did not have piggy pots so there was more incentive to party. They would find groups and farm challenge letters or run bella for keystone fragments. Sure, drop rates were bad, but players were able to naturally progress by farming these fragments to craft their gear. It took a while, but progression was reasonable and makes sense. Now there are huge awkard CR gaps that are very difficult for entering players to progress their characters around these gaps, biggest example is the Windhome gap. So, its either pay for more stats through these p2w system (pets, pet gems, emblems, accents), spend an unreasonable amount of time at each of these awkward cr gaps, or just pay a player to carry you and hope you get a few drops. The options aren’t very good. With each new patch, the cash shop gets bigger with more RNG items and more dungeons that only a handful of players can access are added, while nothing is done by the already existing dungeons that a large portion of players still can’t do. In Kr, extreme dungeons have varying difficulties with varying drops (Don't quote me on this, but I think someone mentioned 10 difficulties for ultimate zones where loot is dropped if you clear it in time). I am not sure why this was never implemented in our version. Also, Grazing, which seems to only hurt new players, was also removed from KR and for some reason we still have it. These wouldn’t be a complete fix, but it would alleviate some stress by allowing more players to access new dungeons and progress at their own pace.

    While I can understand the points that have been made about why they removed the costumes, It is as you said, it was very poor form to not give any notice or a proper explanation for the removal of a feature that many players enjoyed. Along with everything else that happened this patch, it didn’t seem like a good patch/update unless you were looking forward towards the prodigy class. With how these updates are progressing, I’m not sure how much longer many of the veterans or end game players will be around. A good amount of us relied heavily on the kred we obtained before kred gain was nerf (old arena, old fractured memory, etc.), but that only lasts so long. And with character progression being more tied to the cash shop and less on organic in-game means every patch, its pretty difficult to find any motivation to play.

  • MeshakMeshak Member

    @Reiatzu
    I don't know who billy is, but is being a smart ass really how you want to get your point across? If you assume I'm a new player, then you go about poking fun at me, aren't you just deriding a new player? Isn't that what I'm trying to get you all to stop doing? Deriding and not caring about the players who care about the costume change?

    Congratulations, you just made fun of someone you believe to be a new player...

  • RPN7NPCCG6RPN7NPCCG6 Member, KOL ✭✭
    edited September 2018

    @Meshak said:
    @Reiatzu
    I don't know who billy is, but is being a smart ass really how you want to get your point across? If you assume I'm a new player, then you go about poking fun at me, aren't you just deriding a new player? Isn't that what I'm trying to get you all to stop doing? Deriding and not caring about the players who care about the costume change?

    Congratulations, you just made fun of someone you believe to be a new player...

    they weren't making fun of you, you toxic ass, they actually tried to answer your insulting message and did it in a most tolerant way considering how rude you are and not even reading what people say to you. I'm actually amazed how patient those two are. First of all, they are not developers or publishers, but a mere players, just like you, so shut your cockiness and toxicity down, please. If you are to play the game and not dress up, there is easy way to get costume in game with same stats as every other. If you are to play dress up and fashionista, there are still f2p ways to get costumes in game, just not as accessible as it used to be (15 badges per piece is something you get just from daily log in per character). You can get kreds from selling gears on ah and buy costumes for them, ez life, and dont tell me it's impossible, I made >10k kreds this way, but ye, it requires farming and might be not as easy for a fresh player spending his first week in game. Same way you can buy costumes with gold, just farm it. I'm a f2p player, and I have a lot of costumes, and I barely bought any of them from kagerfeld anyway.
    The point you just wont hear is that is common from publishers and developers to expect people to spend money on game for cosmetics stuff nowadays. Like why are you suddenly so butthurt about this. This game is f2p mmorpg, so it's either will be cosmetics or p2w, normaly people prefer cosmetics being cash walled rather than p2w, that's what these two guys are saying, and I agree.
    Makes no sense from someone to spend money on these costumes in a kred shop, when they are easily buyable just for inferior badges. That's why I understand developer's decision.

  • ReiatzuReiatzu Member, KOL ✭✭✭

    @Meshak

    No one is making fun of “new players” as a whole. I am explaining it in simple terms and connecting the dots so that a single specific individual might understand. You’ve posted many times about how inaccessible costumes are and people have replied to your claim that disproves how inaccessible they are. Multiple methods were listed, though it takes some time, people can get costumes through via in game means. While it sucks that they removed costumes and provided no explanation, people have came up with reasonable explanations which you continue to ignore. You are specifically looking for people to agree with you and when they don’t seem to a agree it suddenly switches to a problem with high CR players not caring about the low cr players. If we really didn’t care, why do we spend all that time to make guides? Why do we answer topics on the forums and on the discord? Why do we help out players in game? Again, I am not speaking generally to the new players and have no way indicated that I have in my prior post. I was specifically directing my message towards a single individual that likes to shield himself behind the tag of “a new player” because it’s much more convenient for him to.

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