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Don't push last minute changes dirrectly to live server

The current changes made to artifexes 2 items set effect is just horrible and i feel like i got a big middle finger pointed at me for not reacting about something that was already fine. If there at least was a noticeable notification of this change being planned then i could have given feed back on the matter (reason for pts) and told that it would only make the set worse. I do agree that the tesla stick damage increase was useless but the cooldown reduction that the 2 item set effect gave would result in allot more benefit for artifex then the 25% on bazooka does cause now we have it buff 3 different damage types while stil leaving a big gap of CD on skills that deal actual proper damage.

So the basic idea of what i would like is to not have last minute changes being pushed to live. if there is plans on anything being changed then notify the public about it at least a week or 2 before it goes live so that people that play the class aswel and don't agree with the change can state their opinion and reasoning.

Comments

  • 6YDPYCJKKC6YDPYCJKKC Member, KOL

    This. The changes feel like an indirect nerf of a class that is in the lower tier anyways. Is there a specific reason for the changes? The patch note page states it is based on player feedback, but I feel like this can not really be the case for this change.

  • IceIce Member, Player Moderators mod

    Can you say what is so horrible with the changes or how it's nerfed?

  • 6YDPYCJKKC6YDPYCJKKC Member, KOL

    @RyceCream said:
    Can you say what is so horrible with the changes or how it's nerfed?

    The bazooka set bonus has literally no synergy with the whole set. It does not help the class since most of your damage is the mg. Having cd reduction on the tesla would help way more in triggering the last set bonus instead of having a dmg increase on a skill that you barely use at all.

  • IceIce Member, Player Moderators mod

    @6YDPYCJKKC said:

    @RyceCream said:
    Can you say what is so horrible with the changes or how it's nerfed?

    The bazooka set bonus has literally no synergy with the whole set. It does not help the class since most of your damage is the mg

    I'd argue that buzzsaw has no synergy with the class and is actually the tertiary damage type, yet it is being buffed by the set. The crushing skills combined equates to a larger damage contribution than machine gun. Yes, machine gun does the most damage over time, but machine gun itself is not the main damage source. Even in a short fight, nuke will overtake machine gun.

    Having cd reduction on the tesla would help way more in triggering the last set bonus instead of having a dmg increase on a skill that you barely use at all.

    Similarly, tesla stick is an off-element skill (uses lightning instead of fire) that uses up valuable SP and awakening points to trigger the 5 set effect. Without the 20% cd reduction, machine gun's imprint buff will already have a very high uptime, if not 100%. The extra 20% would only be wasted if you used the right skills. You should reconsider your rotation and build if you say that bazooka is barely used. Bazooka is a major damage source, generally top 3-5 in the damage report.

    The changes to the Destrus pieces will only help Artifex. You still get the same benefits of the 5 set, except now you have a significant damage increase in machine gun, buzzsaw, and bazooka.

  • 6YDPYCJKKC6YDPYCJKKC Member, KOL

    I'd argue that buzzsaw has no synergy with the class and is actually the tertiary damage type, yet it is being buffed by the set. The crushing skills combined equates to a larger damage contribution than machine gun. Yes, machine gun does the most damage over time, but machine gun itself is not the main damage source. Even in a short fight, nuke will overtake machine gun.

    Buzzsaw helps in grouping and is actually a decent skill to use in your ex tesla rotation. Machine gun is more than 50% of your total skill damage. While most skills have crushing, the top row imprint is just so good that you should focus on your mg. If bazooka is one of your top skills, you probably went for the crushing bonus which will result in way lower dps than just switching to piercing.

    Similarly, tesla stick is an off-element skill (uses lightning instead of fire) that uses up valuable SP and awakening points to trigger the 5 set effect. Without the 20% cd reduction, machine gun's imprint buff will already have a very high uptime, if not 100%. The extra 20% would only be wasted if you used the right skills. You should reconsider your rotation and build if you say that bazooka is barely used. Bazooka is a major damage source, generally top 3-5 in the damage report.

    First of all, I main the artifex and I feel like you telling me to "reconsider my rotation and build" is really upsetting. I dont know you and I dont know how long you played this class, but you apparently did not play it for a decent amount of time. For the rest, see above.

    I will not reply to this thread anymore since you obviously don't actively play the class and I don't feel like it is worth to discuss anything about this topic with you.

  • @RyceCream said:

    @6YDPYCJKKC said:

    @RyceCream said:
    Can you say what is so horrible with the changes or how it's nerfed?

    The bazooka set bonus has literally no synergy with the whole set. It does not help the class since most of your damage is the mg

    I'd argue that buzzsaw has no synergy with the class and is actually the tertiary damage type, yet it is being buffed by the set. The crushing skills combined equates to a larger damage contribution than machine gun. Yes, machine gun does the most damage over time, but machine gun itself is not the main damage source. Even in a short fight, nuke will overtake machine gun.

    The MG is almost all of the damage of the artifex with just 1 MG i already have almost the same damage as 1 nuke with rocket launcher or mortar (with the attack power buff u get after half the channel of MG). If u then also count in the CD of nuke being 3 min, mortar being 50 sec and rocket launcher being 90 sec it gives u even without the tesla stick effect already allot more damage output then those skills do and i atm even have a little more crushing bonus then piercing bonus cause i already was getting gems before i realy knew the class. so going full on piercing is the best option for artifex either way if we do or don't have the tesla stick CDR.

    But the main reason why i made this post is not just to complain about the artifex change but that they got feed back from some 1 that i had no way of realy knowing about (even if its on the forums i cant check everything) and with that feedback they made changes that they pushed right to the live servers instead of making an announcement of that they plan to do that. Resulting in that i couldn't give my feedback on why i do not agree with this change. I am fine with the changes doesn't change a huge amount even tho it makes the full set weaker instead of stronger and i am 99% sure that it was supposed to make it stronger. But i am not fine with them making changes at the very last moment and pushing it to live so that the people that where fine with the previous result cant realy react and state their opinion on the matter.



    This is the results i get from the "main skills" on artifex if u want to see the damage of the saw let me know and il post it forgot to check that with these (but with MG buff it does around 6bil damage and i have only head and feet atm)

    (if it doesnt show pics il need to know how to show that cause i never posted pics on the forums before)

  • Seems like the images didnt show, i never use imgur for this stuff so idk how long they stay on there but this should have the images i posted there.
    https://imgur.com/a/qGmruz0

  • IceIce Member, Player Moderators mod

    @6YDPYCJKKC said:
    Buzzsaw helps in grouping and is actually a decent skill to use in your ex tesla rotation. Machine gun is more than 50% of your total skill damage. While most skills have crushing, the top row imprint is just so good that you should focus on your mg. If bazooka is one of your top skills, you probably went for the crushing bonus which will result in way lower dps than just switching to piercing.

    Any skill is good when paired with EX tesla. It's not buzzsaw doing the grouping and EX tesla doesn't need more help to pull mobs. I'm curious to how you arrived at >50% machine gun damage. Let's compare some skills.
    Without dawn gear, machine gun does 39,420% * 1.56 (awakening) = 61,495%. Only half of this is doubled by the imprint, but to give it an advantage I'll double it fully to 122,990% skill damage (92,242% actual). Now let's take the worst combo you can perform in the 11-12s left of machine gun's imprint. In 11 seconds, you can bazooka twice, matterhorn once, flamethrower 2-3 times, and hammer time 3-4 times.
    [Bazooka]12,693% * 1.56 (awakening) * 2 (MG imprint) = 39,602%
    [Flamethrower] (1,330*4 initial + 8,188% explosion * 1.5 (awakening)) * 2 (MG imprint) = 35,204%
    [Matterhorn] 12,500% * 1.7 ( awakening) * 2 (MG imprint) = 42,500%
    [Hammer Time] 8,150% * 1.7 (awakening) * 2 (MG imprint) = 27,710%

    1 matterhorn and 2 bazookas already matches the damage output of 1 machine gun. It realistically does more but I'm being generous here. Since your damage report is pre-buffed dawn gear, I'll add 37% to its modifier.
    61,495% * 1.37 = 84,248%, and 168,496% imprinted (126,372% actual). Now with the buffed machine gun, the equivalent crushing skill rotation is 1 matterhorn, 1 bazooka, 1 flame thrower, and 2 hammer times. Very simple rotation cast in under 5 seconds to out damage machine gun's bloated value. Again, 1 matterhorn and 2 bazookas will actually pull similar damage. The other high damage crushing skills aren't even being considered for machine gun to lose the battle.

    First of all, I main the artifex and I feel like you telling me to "reconsider my rotation and build" is really upsetting. I dont know you and I dont know how long you played this class, but you apparently did not play it for a decent amount of time. For the rest, see above.

    I will not reply to this thread anymore since you obviously don't actively play the class and I don't feel like it is worth to discuss anything about this topic with you.

    So, what's wrong with your rotation and how were you able to achieve >50% machine gun damage? I can tell you that your current rotation is worse than the weakest rotation available after machine gun is used. Maining artifex does not mean you are all knowledgeable or know what higher dps is.

    @Skratsch said:
    The MG is almost all of the damage of the artifex with just 1 MG i already have almost the same damage as 1 nuke with rocket launcher or mortar (with the attack power buff u get after half the channel of MG). If u then also count in the CD of nuke being 3 min, mortar being 50 sec and rocket launcher being 90 sec it gives u even without the tesla stick effect already allot more damage output then those skills do and i atm even have a little more crushing bonus then piercing bonus cause i already was getting gems before i realy knew the class. so going full on piercing is the best option for artifex either way if we do or don't have the tesla stick CDR.

    Read above, you don't need nuke, rocket launcher, or mortar fire.
    As for the buffed set, machine gun gets a 45% bonus + 31% for 5 set. Bazooka gets 20% from mitts and 25% for 2 set. This puts machine gun at 216,462% (162,347% actual) and bazooka at 57,423%. Actual value is comparable again with 1 matterhorn and 2 bazookas. The bloated value kicks in now for 5 set when you can cast machine gun before the buff expires. Adding 2 flamethrowers to the rotation will surpass machine gun by a small margin. What does this tell you? Don't spam machine gun any more than you need to. 20% tesla CDR is not needed to keep the full uptime on the buff. The dawn changes are strictly a buff for Artifex.

    But the main reason why i made this post is not just to complain about the artifex change but that they got feed back from some 1 that i had no way of realy knowing about (even if its on the forums i cant check everything) and with that feedback they made changes that they pushed right to the live servers instead of making an announcement of that they plan to do that. Resulting in that i couldn't give my feedback on why i do not agree with this change. I am fine with the changes doesn't change a huge amount even tho it makes the full set weaker instead of stronger and i am 99% sure that it was supposed to make it stronger. But i am not fine with them making changes at the very last moment and pushing it to live so that the people that where fine with the previous result cant realy react and state their opinion on the matter.

    Every PTS patch, we are told that there will be changes and that we should not expect everything there to be final. We are generally given the PTS patch 2 weeks before it hit live. It takes about 1 week for council to aggregate feedback and for Allm to receive it. The next week is to roll out the needed changes before it hits live. It is very difficult to update the PTS again right before it hits live as there's not enough time to make more changes. Depending on the topic, it might be possible to ask Allm on what the planned changes are rather than pushing it to PTS for round 2.

    For the vamp and artifex changes, I was very specific in what I thought the sets needed. Unfortunately, some of them weren't changed (intrus sets) and the 5 set effect remained the same. Even though the tesla 5 set remained and the 2 set got changed, it will still put artifex in a much better spot. Hopefully you see that it is indeed a buff now.

  • 6YDPYCJKKC6YDPYCJKKC Member, KOL

    Without dawn gear, machine gun does 39,420% * 1.56 (awakening) = 61,495%. Only half of this is doubled by the imprint, but to give it an advantage I'll double it fully to 122,990% skill damage (92,242% actual).

    It is funny how you are defending yourself with numbers and then even fail to get your math right. You don't realize that the imprint doubles the duration of the machine gun. The effect for the double machine gun damage happens at around 30 to 40% of the cast. This means it does more than triple the damage of a single machine gun cast compared to the one without the imprints.

    1 matterhorn and 2 bazookas already matches the damage output of 1 machine gun.

    No, it does not. If you would actually play the class you would know that it is not worth to invest any sp besides getting the first level in matterhorn compared to the other skills.

    So, what's wrong with your rotation and how were you able to achieve >50% machine gun damage? I can tell you that your current rotation is worse than the weakest rotation available after machine gun is used. Maining artifex does not mean you are all knowledgeable or know what higher dps is.

    This again feels like an insult coming from a person who does not comprehend nor appreciate the love and beauty that is the artifex. Here is my damage chart of using literally every single skill once. Let me remind you that I am not even using a piercing artifact in the following run.

    It is honestly really sad that people like you, who don't play the class and sit behind a calculator to defend themself instead of actually trying to play the class, get to decide any changes in this game. I am really upset about all your answers so far and advise you to stay away from giving any more "feedback" on classes you don't actually play. I know I said I won't reply here anymore, but it seems like you still don't get my point.

  • It seems like u are purely relying on the numbers that enmass/allm give us and dont seem to truely test what they results are cause if u took the time to compare the damage difference between normal minigun and imprinted minigun then u would already know that the scaling with imprints DOES total to 122k% (cause time increase makes it basicaly a double cast of MG already) and at the halfway point it doubles ur attack power so u could even argue that its a 180k% something skill without the dawn gear calculated in to it (i know u could theoreticaly double any other skills damage then aswel but just saying it).

    Any skill is good when paired with EX tesla. It's not buzzsaw doing the grouping and EX tesla doesn't need more help to pull mobs. I'm curious to how you arrived at >50% machine gun damage. Let's compare some skills.
    Without dawn gear, machine gun does 39,420% * 1.56 (awakening) = 61,495%. Only half of this is doubled by the imprint, but to give it an advantage I'll double it fully to 122,990% skill damage (92,242% actual). Now let's take the worst combo you can perform in the 11-12s left of machine gun's imprint. In 11 seconds, you can bazooka twice, matterhorn once, flamethrower 2-3 times, and hammer time 3-4 times.
    [Bazooka]12,693% * 1.56 (awakening) * 2 (MG imprint) = 39,602%
    [Flamethrower] (1,330*4 initial + 8,188% explosion * 1.5 (awakening)) * 2 (MG imprint) = 35,204%
    [Matterhorn] 12,500% * 1.7 ( awakening) * 2 (MG imprint) = 42,500%
    [Hammer Time] 8,150% * 1.7 (awakening) * 2 (MG imprint) = 27,710%

    1 matterhorn and 2 bazookas already matches the damage output of 1 machine gun. It realistically does more but I'm being generous here. Since your damage report is pre-buffed dawn gear, I'll add 37% to its modifier.
    61,495% * 1.37 = 84,248%, and 168,496% imprinted (126,372% actual). Now with the buffed machine gun, the equivalent crushing skill rotation is 1 matterhorn, 1 bazooka, 1 flame thrower, and 2 hammer times. Very simple rotation cast in under 5 seconds to out damage machine gun's bloated value. Again, 1 matterhorn and 2 bazookas will actually pull similar damage. The other high damage crushing skills aren't even being considered for machine gun to lose the battle.

    Idk why u are purely doing calculations on what the buff u get from it could increase ur damage with can land u cause that is stuff we can cast either way or maybe 1 rocket or what ever less. If u want to argue what ever ur stuff is is better then the minigun then u should see what u could do in those 6 seconds of the minigun cast instead of the durration of the buff cause we are arguing that the damage of the minigun is ur main damage source. With what we say u are stil able to cast all the stuff in 10.2 seconds that u are talking about with the buff from the minigun and then be able to cast minigun again while matter horn and bazooka are on CD and immidiatly shoot a new bazooka after the minigun cast and in the rotation after the next minigun u can matterhorn again. Also me and Dark are showing actual practical results while u are only giving theoratical numbers that arent even 100% proven and varry from what they state.

    I have a feeling u are not understanding what i am saying or ur more arguing with dark then with me. I would prefer to discuss further in voice chat cause this waiting a day before any reaction isnt realy helping and i am bad with text. So if u have time today while im still online or tomorrow i would want to get in a voice chat and discuss further there cause with just pure theoretical numbers we arent getting anywhere. While we would be in voice chat i can use twitch to show anything u ask me to show the damage result of or want me to prove that ur "actual" minigun damage numbers are incorrect (i have already done some testing before the dawn gear was around to see if it triples minigun damage and it does).

  • Send me a DM on discord if ur willing to discuss it then wil try to see if i have time at that moment or we could try to make an agreement on another time to talk about it (since NA and EU time difference).

  • IceIce Member, Player Moderators mod

    @6YDPYCJKKC said:

    Without dawn gear, machine gun does 39,420% * 1.56 (awakening) = 61,495%. Only half of this is doubled by the imprint, but to give it an advantage I'll double it fully to 122,990% skill damage (92,242% actual).

    It is funny how you are defending yourself with numbers and then even fail to get your math right. You don't realize that the imprint doubles the duration of the machine gun. The effect for the double machine gun damage happens at around 30 to 40% of the cast. This means it does more than triple the damage of a single machine gun cast compared to the one without the imprints.

    It is honestly really sad that people like you, who don't play the class and sit behind a calculator to defend themself instead of actually trying to play the class, get to decide any changes in this game. I am really upset about all your answers so far and advise you to stay away from giving any more "feedback" on classes you don't actually play. I know I said I won't reply here anymore, but it seems like you still don't get my point.

    @Skratsch said:
    It seems like u are purely relying on the numbers that enmass/allm give us and dont seem to truely test what they results are cause if u took the time to compare the damage difference between normal minigun and imprinted minigun then u would already know that the scaling with imprints DOES total to 122k% (cause time increase makes it basicaly a double cast of MG already) and at the halfway point it doubles ur attack power so u could even argue that its a 180k% something skill without the dawn gear calculated in to it (i know u could theoreticaly double any other skills damage then aswel but just saying it).

    Wow, you got me. I just play artifex for funsies. Ok, let's increase the machine gun damage to 3 casts of damage. (61,495% * 2 + 61,495%) * 1.37 (dawn hat) = 252,744%. Guess what? You're still wrong. My aformentioned worst rotation has a total of 338,156%.

    You want practical proven stats? Here you go bud


    My time is achieved over 2 weeks before your machine gun rotatos. Your arguments are wrong and your build is still bad.

  • Any of the stuff u are mentioning doesnt have anything to do with the dawn set tho that stuff can stil be achieved in between minigun what i was talking about is just the raw numbers from the tesla CDR being removed decreases total damage output and i aint saying that i am the best artifex around i know i am a pleb and that my skill rotations most likely suck (also need to play FM with 10 fps and allot of frame freeze since my pc is shit so cant even get great time). Like i said i want to get on voice chat so that i can disprove that the result we have now is a buff. The FM ranks dont matter cause that is stuff from pre 5 item set for what we have right now with just the 2 items set its a buff yes i wont disagree with that but once we have full item set the 20% CDR would benefit us allot more then the 45% bazooka damage.

    If its about skill related to playing and such then u wil most likely beat me cause i know to little about the actual FM and such to get the great times. All i am arguing for here is the dawn set i dont give anything about who is the better artifex. So would u plz just get on voice instead of being passive agressive with comments and bringing stuff to the table that has 0 to do with what the actual point off it all is. (cause i never said anything about optimal damage output rotations or being better then u all i said was that the change to the set is a nerf not a buff to the FULL SET effect).

    If u would want to prove that the way that the dawn set is now is better then what is on pts u should see what damage u could do in the 4 sec u save with tesla stick that we would else have gained. in that time u could cast 1 bazooka, matter horn and another skill to put it simple in the 4 seconds of mingun u could cast with the old effects u already do more damage then that could do and keep ur MG buff running at all times.

    So to make sure that u can read it il say it again let me know if u have time and we can get on the enmass discord and talk about it (preferably in a channel where we wont have 20 people join cause im not good with big groups of people). Then i can give my reasoning why the changes that are made to the set are a nerf instead of a buff. I am going with the same idea that reiatsu and roman have said before some 1 doing optimal damage output and going with the raw numbers of it all.

  • IceIce Member, Player Moderators mod

    @Skratsch said:
    Any of the stuff u are mentioning doesnt have anything to do with the dawn set tho that stuff can stil be achieved in between minigun what i was talking about is just the raw numbers from the tesla CDR being removed decreases total damage output and i aint saying that i am the best artifex around i know i am a pleb and that my skill rotations most likely suck (also need to play FM with 10 fps and allot of frame freeze since my pc is shit so cant even get great time). Like i said i want to get on voice chat so that i can disprove that the result we have now is a buff. The FM ranks dont matter cause that is stuff from pre 5 item set for what we have right now with just the 2 items set its a buff yes i wont disagree with that but once we have full item set the 20% CDR would benefit us allot more then the 45% bazooka damage.

    If its about skill related to playing and such then u wil most likely beat me cause i know to little about the actual FM and such to get the great times. All i am arguing for here is the dawn set i dont give anything about who is the better artifex. So would u plz just get on voice instead of being passive agressive with comments and bringing stuff to the table that has 0 to do with what the actual point off it all is. (cause i never said anything about optimal damage output rotations or being better then u all i said was that the change to the set is a nerf not a buff to the FULL SET effect).

    If u would want to prove that the way that the dawn set is now is better then what is on pts u should see what damage u could do in the 4 sec u save with tesla stick that we would else have gained. in that time u could cast 1 bazooka, matter horn and another skill to put it simple in the 4 seconds of mingun u could cast with the old effects u already do more damage then that could do and keep ur MG buff running at all times.

    So to make sure that u can read it il say it again let me know if u have time and we can get on the enmass discord and talk about it (preferably in a channel where we wont have 20 people join cause im not good with big groups of people). Then i can give my reasoning why the changes that are made to the set are a nerf instead of a buff. I am going with the same idea that reiatsu and roman have said before some 1 doing optimal damage output and going with the raw numbers of it all.

    You were in fact arguing that machine gun is "almost all of the damage of the artifex", while Darkir argued similarly. You and Darkir made this argument based on pre-buffed gear and I disproved it using pre-buffed gear. Similarly, both your practical training dummy "tests" are flawed, giving heavy bias to machine gun. If you have a bad setup and build, obviously your results will be bad.

    The things I'm talking about "achieved in between minigun" is superior to minigun itself. Yet you still continue to repeat false information.

    As for the dawn effect changes, if you are arguing for the 2 set change, you would not have gotten the buff to buzzsaw or machine gun. Nor would tesla stick damage be changed on the glove. The 4 second difference from the 2 set bonus is easily replaced by the additional bazooka damage. Now, if you're like Darkir and refuses to use it, it will be useless to you. The 4 seconds does not change the downtime on the machine gun buff. It will always be up with the 5 set. Now if you want to spam machine gun more, it is better than the worst crushing rotation. However, you will still have large time gaps in which you have to use something that isn't machine gun. Bazooka is an essential skill, whether you choose to accept it or not is up to you.

    If you have actual information to provide, please do so. You've only been giving excuses and baseless claims.

  • I have done calculations of old dawn set compared to new dawn set.

    All skills are fully awakened for this calculation

    MG : 122.990% (+76% from full set) 216.462.4%
    Bazooka : 19.801% (+45% from full set) 28.711.45%
    Saw : 40445% (+102% from full set) 81698.9%

    Ussing max arena time on floors around 60 (4min) and FM ability taken in to account of the bazooka CD resulting in 33.7 bazooka casts

    49% tesla stick CDR (no bazooka damage increase)

    MG casts - 23.5
    216.462.4% x 23 = 4.978.635,2%
    Saw casts - 23.5
    81698.9% x 23 = 1.879.074,7%
    Bazooka
    19.801% x 33 = 653.433%

    total damage - 7.511.142,9%

    29% tesla stick CDR (bazooka damage increased)

    MG casts - 16.9
    216.462.4% x 16 = 3.463.398,4%
    Saw casts - 16.9
    81698.9% x 16 = 1.307.182,4%
    Bazooka
    28.711,45% x 33 = 947.477,85%

    total damage -5.718.058,65%

    If u stil claim that this change "buffed" the artifex instead of nerf it then i seriously dont know any more (like i stated multiple times nothing of this is talking about me being better or anything its just the raw numbers)
    Since i dont have the full set on live server and the test i could do on pts are way different since worse stats then live im not able to give a full comparison of the difference between the sets with in game practical numbers.

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