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Community Response, the Importance of Proper Community Management

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  • Doviculus wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    1) A list of alternatives, including reaching out and collaborating with big names in the community to see if you can put together an EME-supported, secure way of bringing in these things that improve the way people play TERA, without the risk of malicious injectors and the like. I know this step can actually be difficult for you guys due to the nature of being a publisher rather than a developer, since you need permission from KTERA first, but this is a big one and is probably the most important step here.

    2) The community needs to know why this is happening, which I can admit you have covered the why, but step 1 and 2 need to come together, like a packaged deal. This lets people know that you are working towards a way for them to enjoy the way they've gotten used to, as well as the fact that you do need to step in and take necessary measures, and since you claim this is mostly about player security, I feel that EME-supported methods are a big part of letting people know you mean well.

    3) Community suggestions - appeal to the community, nobody can play a game as much as its community does, they know the game, they love the game, they want it to improve. Ideas your community have implemented can improve both the community's mood and the game by a significant margin. The symbiotic relationship I spoke of in the OP is part of this, community and publisher/developer should be hand-in-hand, not butting heads.

    My apologies it's all a bit vague and took a while to put together, I was in the middle of a dungeon as I wrote bit by bit (sorry team) but I hope it helps you guys at least a little in the task ahead.

    THIS. PERFECTLY THIS.
    You won't have to worry about it being a 3rd party IF ITS YOUR PROGRAM, you don't have to worry about how its being used if you control it, you dont have to worry about security because its your program. THIS IS A WIN WIN SITUATION.
  • GrievuuzGrievuuz ✭✭✭
    Spacecats wrote: »
    Grievuuz wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    So some players are asking to openly discuss 3rd party programs in the official TERA forums, and unfortunately that's not an option. I know that seems unreasonably stubborn to a lot of you, but there are legalities involved that aren't doing to be discussed.

    Then we appear to be at an impasse. We're most likely gonna continue to rage, shitpost and threaten EME in various ways (honest, non-passive-aggressive truth).

    Your move.

    Our moderation team will continue to warn and ban people who violate the forum rules. I know that's not really a pleasant answer, but if your purpose in the forums is to rage, shitpost and threaten people then you aren't welcome here.

    I understand. That doesn't make the "our way or the highway" stance any less fiscally and morally bankrupt though.
  • jongbaejongbae ✭✭✭
    The funny thing is how he let this threat open to discuss with the community but his position on the matter remains the same instead of actually listening to concerns and think of a solution. It's like trying to move a rock that won't move from where it is.
  • JenieveJenieve ✭✭✭
    jongbae wrote: »
    Jenieve wrote: »
    And in terms of DPS meters, what prevents EME from creating their own *approved* tool?
    From what I know, it's because some players would cry because of their DPS.

    You can't know your gameplay is bad until you see numbers specially in end game content where DPS Race is required some of the time. Dungeons like HH can't be cleared if you don't do certain amount of damage but how will you know it's you the one holding back a group of 29 people? All I see is they expect new players get damage carried all the time, going blind saying I'm good because I can clear content when they probably do 10% of the overall damage. Just throwing this here, it would help a lot if they develop their own. Just like KTera does, if KTera has it I don't understand why is a problem in NA.

    In general I think what they are lacking is the knowledge of the game 100%. You should sit one day, from your house NOT THE OFFICE, but your house, play for 2-3 hours everyday for a week or two. Run dungeons, try to gear without your GM powers, try to farm, everything, do what a normal player does and you will see what we are talking about: server lag, broken economy, actual needs of the community. You only need one person knowing how the everyday TERA life is to know why the community isn't taking it well, this is what you as ENMASSE is missing HARDCORE.

    If that was the case then World of Warcraft would be less popular but somehow their transparency has 10 million players ... 11 years going.
  • > @Spacecats said:
    > Aimovera wrote: »
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    > Spacecats wrote: »
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    > Machineoil wrote: »
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    > EME lashed out against people who invested their TIME and EFFORT to make this game playable. This is turning point for this game.
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    > We banned people who were hacking the game client and creating 3rd party programs to help others hack the game. If that's what they'd like to spend their time and effort doing, then they'll have to find another video game to do it with.
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    > You've got to be kidding me xD...
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    > Mind you were not just talking about one person who decided to Google a DPS meter and install it on their computer. Multiple banned individuals were actively looking for ways to hack the client and game the system with 3rd party tools that they've developed. Knowing that, would you have still banned them or do you think it's unreasonable?

    No, not really. I don't want people to cheat the system anymore than you do, but hundreds, maybe thousands of people who use harmless meters or UI mods to improve an already -hard to optimize- system are being penalised, banned even. For what? Wanting a way to track your own skill level at endgame content? Or trying to get 40 FPS instead of 20? Or dare I say, trying to get 100 ping instead of 300 (which is unplayable)?
  • I've seen many players complain about optimization and how normal distance lag effects something like if you can use key skills or not since the beginning of TERA.

    They key here is to actually fix these issues. People want to use these fixes because these are the issues that had never been resolved, even though people were complaining about them for the entire life of the game. Third party programs would not be as popular as it is now if BHS actually cared about the issues NA players faced.

    I had complained about ping dependent skills and the reaction from the GM's? None. Reaction from the player base? Agreement and Nihilism. Heck, I wrote somewhat of a warning there that "It isn't right that people have to rely on illegal tweaks and third party programs to play the game as it was intended. Please fix these issues." or something to that effect. The people who find ways to cope with it is your dedicated player base. The people who found the ways to fix it is your player base's community leaders.

    The backlash is the direct result of the community managers of TERA letting people grow nihilistic. We have absolutely no hope, even when reaching out, that these issues will be fixed.

    Give us hope. The third party program usage is a symptom to the problem. Address the real issue of the poor optimization of the game.
  • edited April 2017
    Spacecats wrote: »
    Random4lyf wrote: »
    Like. I honestly believe if you reached out and worked with the people you banned already. Things could have been a ton better.

    Unfortunately EME did try to reach out to some of the people developing 3rd party programs in an effort to communicate with them, but the answer was no.



    @Spacecats https://puu.sh/vyhpK.png

    Lying will not help get the community on your side.
  • All i'm going to say is that you guys started a war that you will not win as you will most likely ban 80% of the whole tera player base and have no one remaining as the rest will just quit and move to another game that isn't a joke like so. Or is this a plan to get people off a tera and other kritira or however its spelled, you are trying to kill a whole game with one bold statement as this will go down in history for not just you but everyone.
    So good luck :)
  • LesbianViLesbianVi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why people are mad towards this? Communication was let me say something here.

    Check my forums, I was making suggestions, I was instead of writing go play the game and replies similar to that. When I was criticizing Tera, I was getting the replies why you here, in forums and in game, oh look crying forumer is here. Recently I defended EME on some points I am being called, attacked in game and forums.

    How exactly you wanna communicate with this community? How exactly you wanna be constructive here?

    People call me noob in similar words and not doing hard mode stuff, then why are you so against this? Those programs/injectors just ruined the line between a player like me that can't run dungeons with players that can do it.

    So, EME has a purpose here, If you can't run those end game stuff the way it was planned, then you shouldn't be running it. This is good news for pro players, bad news for players that can't run heck without those stuff.

    People say it needs to be slow process, so they could find other ways? I agree like any system innocents might get hurt here, and I agree it could be handled better but I also take EME's side here, why? Because I know I couldn't do any better, Hirez studio is mentioned here, That developer doesn't give a rat @ss to community, was an active player there.

    Those innocents, can PM GMs, make tickets, this is not a public discussion, it needs to be done personally, communicate should happen like that. Then EME knows what was the intention, they can process it better with more open eyes, posting meme and countless thread was never solution, just troll act.

    So At the end, a good thing happening that can make pro players stand tall and some people are against it? What does that tell you?
  • StarSpriteStarSprite ✭✭✭✭
    Grievuuz wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    Grievuuz wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    So some players are asking to openly discuss 3rd party programs in the official TERA forums, and unfortunately that's not an option. I know that seems unreasonably stubborn to a lot of you, but there are legalities involved that aren't doing to be discussed.

    Then we appear to be at an impasse. We're most likely gonna continue to rage, shitpost and threaten EME in various ways (honest, non-passive-aggressive truth).

    Your move.

    Our moderation team will continue to warn and ban people who violate the forum rules. I know that's not really a pleasant answer, but if your purpose in the forums is to rage, shitpost and threaten people then you aren't welcome here.

    I understand. That doesn't make the "our way or the highway" stance any less fiscally and morally bankrupt though.
    There's reddit and a couple of discords I can think of that you can continue to rage and meme in. It would be productive for both sides of the argument to try and discuss things constructively on the official Eme forums. Feedback is much easier to collect this way.
  • Spacecats wrote: »
    Aimovera wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    Machineoil wrote: »
    EME lashed out against people who invested their TIME and EFFORT to make this game playable. This is turning point for this game.

    We banned people who were hacking the game client and creating 3rd party programs to help others hack the game. If that's what they'd like to spend their time and effort doing, then they'll have to find another video game to do it with.

    You've got to be kidding me xD...

    Mind you were not just talking about one person who decided to Google a DPS meter and install it on their computer. Multiple banned individuals were actively looking for ways to hack the client and game the system with 3rd party tools that they've developed. Knowing that, would you have still banned them or do you think it's unreasonable?

    You make it sound like these are dastardly mustache twirling cartoon villains. Technically speaking the aspects of their programs that tried to remove ping dependence on some skills work off of "tricking the client and the game", but that's hardly malicious. This game was created by koreans for koreans. A nation with the best internet in the world packed into a country half the size of the state of California. I'm not gonna say they didn't break the ToS, but lets not act like all these people were just evil hackers out to undermine you. A lot of them are talented veteran players who were looking for a way to address long standing issues that this game has had since launch.

    I think a lot of people are upset because people like Meishu provided a service that actually made the game playable, removing some of the unfair disadvantages placed on them thanks to geography and terrible exploitative internet providers that monopolize certain areas with awful service. And then just to see enmasse ban them outright without even talking to the major developers of it just comes off as more of the same for why certain people in the past left. I'm not saying you didn't have a right to ban them, but you're not going to convince anyone who knows anything about what that stuff did that this was a good move in any way.

    I really think you'd be much better off speaking to them about possible ways to help combat people who might actually abuse this sort of thing rather than just outright banning people regardless of the context of what they were doing.
  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    jongbae wrote: »
    The funny thing is how he let this threat open to discuss with the community but his position on the matter remains the same instead of actually listening to concerns and think of a solution. It's like trying to move a rock that won't move from where it is.

    If you want to move a rock, you gotta use the tools that are available.
  • xoBarbxoBarb ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    BronzeTube wrote: »
    xoBarb wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »

    I'd like to hear from your perspective what you would do if you were a TERA community manager and very vocal players wanted to break the rules, but you couldn't allow them to do it. They would think you're totally out of touch with the community, of course. It's a tough message to deliver to people.

    Ban them all :')




    believe it or not, desync can and does do this kind of stuff, and has since long before any of the current EME employees even started working there.

    It's a long standing issue that virtually nothing has been done about.

    But hey lets blame the hacker boogeyman for more unresolved and unaddressed issues that this game has had for years!

    the guy in the video was open about using the injector since hes from AUS and has 200+ ping.

    but ooooooooookay :') digging up a 4year old video sure showed me and totally nullified the 'fresh' video
  • Doviculus wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    I'd like to hear from your perspective what you would do if you were a TERA community manager and very vocal players wanted to break the rules, but you couldn't allow them to do it. They would think you're totally out of touch with the community, of course. It's a tough message to deliver to people.

    I hope you had time to read today's follow-up response. If not, please have a look and let me know if you agree with our motivations here.

    I'd really like to keep this thread open so we can talk about communication between EME and players, so I'd like to ask everyone to please avoid mentioning 3rd party programs, what they do, how to use them, where to get them, who makes them.... really anything that has to do with them. If you have questions please message me directly.

    @Spacecats I'm glad you plan to keep the thread open, and as for what I would do in your shoes, I do admit the situation is tricky, it's like trying to scale an icy mountain with no shoes on.

    The solution is both simple and complex - you have to ease people into an idea, and you have to make them understand the idea.

    So how would I start? I'd tackle the simple part first - how do I make this easier for people?

    1) A list of alternatives, including reaching out and collaborating with big names in the community to see if you can put together an EME-supported, secure way of bringing in these things that improve the way people play TERA, without the risk of malicious injectors and the like. I know this step can actually be difficult for you guys due to the nature of being a publisher rather than a developer, since you need permission from KTERA first, but this is a big one and is probably the most important step here.

    2) The community needs to know why this is happening, which I can admit you have covered the why, but step 1 and 2 need to come together, like a packaged deal. This lets people know that you are working towards a way for them to enjoy the way they've gotten used to, as well as the fact that you do need to step in and take necessary measures, and since you claim this is mostly about player security, I feel that EME-supported methods are a big part of letting people know you mean well.

    3) Community suggestions - appeal to the community, nobody can play a game as much as its community does, they know the game, they love the game, they want it to improve. Ideas your community have implemented can improve both the community's mood and the game by a significant margin. The symbiotic relationship I spoke of in the OP is part of this, community and publisher/developer should be hand-in-hand, not butting heads.

    My apologies it's all a bit vague and took a while to put together, I was in the middle of a dungeon as I wrote bit by bit (sorry team) but I hope it helps you guys at least a little in the task ahead.

    Since it seems to have gotten lost in a sea of responses, I'm bringing this response to you back up to the front.
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