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Ingame DPS meeter ?

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Comments

  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    @Obs
    Got a feeling @DeadX is more of a troll than actually someone who wants to contribute to the discussion. He didn't even bother answering (probably cuz he can't) the questions I had asked him in one of my posts.
    https://forums.enmasse.com/tera/discussion/comment/138965#Comment_138965
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Obs wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    tell me how it tells you how to position your character?

    Your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check what they are doing differently -> You find out about positioning.
    tell me how it tells you what rotations to use?

    Your dps is lower than that of other players -> You compare the skills you used to the skills they used -> You notice a difference -> You ask them how come -> You learn a better rotation
    what crystals?

    Your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check their gear -> You notice different crystals -> (You ask why) -> You learn about crystals.
    what timings?

    Define timings?
    what gear rolls?

    You notice your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check their gear -> You see they have different rolls -> You learn about gear rolls.
    what gear in general?

    If you need help to figure out what gear to use in a game this straight-forward, you are beyond help.
    you can't because it doesn't.

    I just did. now you answer me this: How do you learn all those things if you have no idea that you are udnerperforming? If you are sitting there, with the crystals you got from the game/saw on the welcome screen, with your recommended glyph set-up, with your random compilation of yellow stat rolls, breaking your spacebar with the recommended chains, standing in that spot that doesn't seem to get any red circles...how do you know you are doing something wrong when you are doing exactly what the game tells you to do?
    lol sorc backcrit build? any build based on backcrits was viable...dunno what build forums you were looking at...the only NON backcrit build was for primarily SOLO players. as to your 'less damage' BS...which is what it is, you played with some lousy players then. and a DPS meter wouldn't have helped them at ALL...since you know it doesn't do a [filtered] thing but show damage. see above. so kindly STOP trying to claim it can help, players learning the class, learning builds or copying them, learning rotations and playing classes they're comfortable with. this game is more of a /fighterbrawler than a classic style mmo...care to argue that? as there is no point in using dps meters in fighters, there's no point in using one in tera.

    except to brag.

    I wasn't looking at forums, I was looking inside the game. And, yeah, there were a lot of lousy players with opinions back then. Not sure why contradicting your own argument(that before dps meters were wide-spread everyone was superpro) helps your case, but, hey, who am I to question your decisions.
    Did you know that a lot of people are too lazy to look up guides on the internet? A dps meter is an in-your-face " you are doing it wrong" statement that can at least tell those people they need to go and look for those guides, learn those things. But you'd rather they never figure out that they are actually bad, huh. and that's the point you are missing. You don't need a dps meter to tell you how you are doing. Great, neither do I. But a lot of people do need it. If they didn't, we wouldn't be seeing so many people with all the wrong things. Unless your argument is that people who do 100k/sec in SS NM and LK Nm are aware they are playing badly but do so by choice and not because they simply don't know any better. If that's the case, I'll gladly take that free-kicks card you are offering and presume there are no unknowingly bad players and everyone who's bad is just a troll.

    PS: Is your next argument going to be "But dps meter doesn't make me coffee in the morning so it's useless"?

    thanks for proving my point...SEVERAL TIMES. it's ALL up to the player thinking. movement, gear, crystals, rotations...lol. meter provides nothing for any of that.

    further, did you know that more people want guides more than meters in this game? or guidance? since a meter can't help you with what you're doing wrong? rofl. want to try again? help me further prove my point that a meter is useless in this game? that EVERYTHING comes down to the player learning how to play their character? and that by your own argument...a dps meter doesn't help that AT ALL. this is what happens when you try to rationalize something you want without any actual basis in reality to back it up. it's a totally useless piece of software for this game except for elitests and braggarts.

    it can't tell you how to play better, a fact YOU yourself pointed out...lol. so...better to just learn how to play in the first place than installing a piece of software that does NOTHING to help you get better.

    How do you think people write their guides?

    There are people that wrote guides before using dps meters, what brouth dps meters is for them to be more acurate and givin they a mean to get faster their analizis over a certain skill, rotation, issue, etc.

    Truth is that no one is going to die if dps meter don't even exist and good players are going to be good, players that like to learn will still be able to learn, the dps meter is only a tool to do some things more easy to understand. Is like the calculator on school, is a tool that will help you to get a result but if you get to dependant to it then it hurt you more than it help you.
  • To those that think a DPS meter will tell them who is being "carried",

    I play tanks and healers. I play them because the role of tank or healer is more important then any other role in a group. Why can't the developers come out with a dungeon where damage dealers are not needed. I am tired of having to carry these damage dealers through the dungeons that are available. I do not like to have to babysit the boss and turn them in a specific direction so these macro consumed, damage meter needing children can do what they were designed to do. I am tired of having to resurrect that damage dealer after they eat a mechanic in hopes of getting just a little bit more out of their precious meter. Do the Tera community a favor and release a dungeon where if you aren't a tank or a healer the boss 1 shots you where you stand no matter where you are and deletes your character permanently.

    Over the last 12 years playing between 8-12 different MMO's my opinion is fairly solid on the matter of a damage meter. Every game that has access to a damage meter, by either locally implementing one, or having one installed third party makes the game worse. There are, few though as they may be, good facets of having a damage meter. The main problem is the use of a damage meter to be enlightening and constructive is almost never the case. "How will we weed out the bad players?", "But then what do I do to squeeze every ounce out of my own damage?", or my personal favorite "I have never used my damage meter to criticize others in any group I have ever been in".

    And really, there couldn't be a more apt name Damage Meter. A meter that causes damage. The first thing it does to cause damage is it forces people to rely on meter instead of being one of three or more DPS in a group of DPS players. The objective in this game is to down bosses. If you are in a group, even if you do the most damage, you are still in a group you "spotlight ranger". The group succeeds if the boss dies. Your own value means nothing if the group cannot proceed. The second thing it does to cause damage is it artificially inflates one spec or rotation in terms of viability over another. Example; Crit build > Haste build > Power build. Players attempt to simulate on a computer program the amount of damage dealt based on numbers punched into a spreadsheet, without any calculation to the variables in a boss fight or the network itself. then, and this is the good part, those elite 'spotlight rangers" who top charts berate anyone else who deviates from a different build so often, no one ever gets the chance to try out something different. Then to make it worse, players read up on what other people should have on their gear crystals, optimal rerolls, and what have you that the outliers who try different things never get to complete anything because they cannot find groups. The final blow of the damage meter is what it does to the development itself. After a while players figure out what mechanics they can avoid and/or ignore to get the most damage out of an encounter. the developers then have to tailor make dungeon mechanics based on 100% unavoidable damage. When that happens it tasks healers to heal up 5 players from immense amounts of damage dealt. Sometimes this is called triage healing. Triage healing leads to people leaving the game because it makes it extremely difficult for the average player to complete even the most simple dungeon. it forces people to shy away from playing the healer role, and by proxy the tank role.

    Damage Meters are a bad thing that can once in a while on rare occasions be used as a tool to improve the meta game. The only real reason you could want a damage meter, from what I can tell, is that you want to see your name on top. Then when it is on top criticize everyone else below you, because you know "git gud noob". This, like most MMO's should be, is a game about cooperation. If you must see your name in lights as the damage dealer to beat all damage dealers, go play World of Warcraft, follow the flavor of the month class gearing method and hit three buttons to the top of the charts. There is literally no valid reason to have a damage meter. If it was a requirement for people to get things done, then no one would ever get things done in a game without one. Last I checked every game that doesn't allow damage meters has people clearing the highest level content.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Nathynn

    I loved the name "Damage Meter", it makes more sense.

    xD
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Yithar @TWMagimay

    All right. I should've clarified instead of making that an open-ended statement. Apologies.

    Okay... so... the implication that I'm getting from most statements is that people can have hard numbers to justify if someone is underperforming, and thus can weed out the undesirables. And that's it. Sure, some people bring up how the raw numbers can give clues about one's (ahem) playstyle, but DPS meters won't be able to show that outright(?); everyone here knows this (or so I'd like to believe).

    Also, do you believe honestly that the average player (<- key words) would have the forethought to ask about the anything like, for example, optimal gear rolls and crystal and glyph loadouts if they were presented with the data provided by a DPS meter? Let's be real - I think we all know the answer to that. Heck, people are still asking for guides on classes and dungeons despite Essential Mana being around for at least a year (though having now said that, I realize that presents its own problem, being that the site isn't as widespread as it probably should be).

    Statement: Now, that being said, if it turns out that you are in fact going out of your way to offer advice to and help out the so-called underperforming player and they then rebuff you for it (unless you thought it was a good idea to be an [filtered] about it, in which case what did you expect would happen?), then you and I have no argument. They are a scrub of the highest caliber, and as the phrase goes: you can't fix stupid.
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Nathynn wrote: »
    To those that think a DPS meter will tell them who is being "carried",

    I play tanks and healers. I play them because the role of tank or healer is more important then any other role in a group. Why can't the developers come out with a dungeon where damage dealers are not needed. I am tired of having to carry these damage dealers through the dungeons that are available. I do not like to have to babysit the boss and turn them in a specific direction so these macro consumed, damage meter needing children can do what they were designed to do. I am tired of having to resurrect that damage dealer after they eat a mechanic in hopes of getting just a little bit more out of their precious meter. Do the Tera community a favor and release a dungeon where if you aren't a tank or a healer the boss 1 shots you where you stand no matter where you are and deletes your character permanently.

    And how does this act as a counterargument "To those that think a DPS meter will tell them who is being "carried""?
    TERA is an MMO made to rely on the classic trinity to clear content in the game: tank, healer, dps. All 3 roles have their own jobs to do.
    As a tank, your job is to mitigate damage and hold aggro, and also to "babysit the boss and turn them in a specific direction", so that the dps can do their jobs.
    As a healer, your job is to heal the tank and dps so that they can do their jobs.
    If you're playing either tank and healer and think that doing your job equates to carrying the dps, then I have no idea why (unless you're really that egoistic) you're even playing MMOs which feature the holy trinity, since it's obviously not your cup of tea.

    "I am tired of having to resurrect that damage dealer after they eat a mechanic in hopes of getting just a little bit more out of their precious meter."
    Sorry to burst your bubble, not every dps eats a mechanic just to boost their precious meter. They could do so just to, you know, make the run faster, which benefits YOU as well. Ever consider that?
    Nathynn wrote: »
    Over the last 12 years playing between 8-12 different MMO's my opinion is fairly solid on the matter of a damage meter. Every game that has access to a damage meter, by either locally implementing one, or having one installed third party makes the game worse. There are, few though as they may be, good facets of having a damage meter. The main problem is the use of a damage meter to be enlightening and constructive is almost never the case. "How will we weed out the bad players?", "But then what do I do to squeeze every ounce out of my own damage?", or my personal favorite "I have never used my damage meter to criticize others in any group I have ever been in".

    And really, there couldn't be a more apt name Damage Meter. A meter that causes damage. The first thing it does to cause damage is it forces people to rely on meter instead of being one of three or more DPS in a group of DPS players. The objective in this game is to down bosses. If you are in a group, even if you do the most damage, you are still in a group you "spotlight ranger". The group succeeds if the boss dies. Your own value means nothing if the group cannot proceed. The second thing it does to cause damage is it artificially inflates one spec or rotation in terms of viability over another. Example; Crit build > Haste build > Power build. Players attempt to simulate on a computer program the amount of damage dealt based on numbers punched into a spreadsheet, without any calculation to the variables in a boss fight or the network itself. then, and this is the good part, those elite 'spotlight rangers" who top charts berate anyone else who deviates from a different build so often, no one ever gets the chance to try out something different. Then to make it worse, players read up on what other people should have on their gear crystals, optimal rerolls, and what have you that the outliers who try different things never get to complete anything because they cannot find groups. The final blow of the damage meter is what it does to the development itself. After a while players figure out what mechanics they can avoid and/or ignore to get the most damage out of an encounter. the developers then have to tailor make dungeon mechanics based on 100% unavoidable damage. When that happens it tasks healers to heal up 5 players from immense amounts of damage dealt. Sometimes this is called triage healing. Triage healing leads to people leaving the game because it makes it extremely difficult for the average player to complete even the most simple dungeon. it forces people to shy away from playing the healer role, and by proxy the tank role.

    Damage Meters are a bad thing that can once in a while on rare occasions be used as a tool to improve the meta game. The only real reason you could want a damage meter, from what I can tell, is that you want to see your name on top. Then when it is on top criticize everyone else below you, because you know "git gud noob". This, like most MMO's should be, is a game about cooperation. If you must see your name in lights as the damage dealer to beat all damage dealers, go play World of Warcraft, follow the flavor of the month class gearing method and hit three buttons to the top of the charts. There is literally no valid reason to have a damage meter. If it was a requirement for people to get things done, then no one would ever get things done in a game without one. Last I checked every game that doesn't allow damage meters has people clearing the highest level content.

    This is one of the longest essays that I have read that feature generalisation at its finest.
    If you already think that everyone who uses DPS meters are elitists who use DPS numbers to mock others, then there's no room for discussion whatsoever. Also, since you're making such a bold statement, please give solid evidence to back it up, otherwise it can be considered complete BS.

    To think someone would even support your post with such generalisation is laughable to say the least. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization for some help in that regard.
  • @Haloist,

    The first paragraph was an exaggeration. A huge one to be honest, and to be taken in jest for the most part. I outlined that damage dealers do no more "carrying" then non damage dealers. If you didn't understand that, not my issue.

    To the rest of your critique. If you think that is an over generalization, this again is your issue. To expound on just a few of the points I made. Group play is a thing, simulationcraft is a thing, triage healing is a thing. These are not generalizations, unless of course you need me to explain them to you. If you need me to explain them then this probably isn't the discussion for you to be in.

    I did not say that EVERYONE who uses damage meters is elitist. In fact I never even used the word elitist. the word elite, yes, in the context of their being elite at what they do, not their personality traits. What I did say to be more specific then my first post is, in MY experience after playing a dozen MMO's is......then the rest of my essay. You can feel however you want about having them. I posted how I feel about it. Your feelings are no more valid then mine, but at least I gave evidence as to why I feel the way I do.
  • ObsObs ✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Obs wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    tell me how it tells you how to position your character?

    Your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check what they are doing differently -> You find out about positioning.
    tell me how it tells you what rotations to use?

    Your dps is lower than that of other players -> You compare the skills you used to the skills they used -> You notice a difference -> You ask them how come -> You learn a better rotation
    what crystals?

    Your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check their gear -> You notice different crystals -> (You ask why) -> You learn about crystals.
    what timings?

    Define timings?
    what gear rolls?

    You notice your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check their gear -> You see they have different rolls -> You learn about gear rolls.
    what gear in general?

    If you need help to figure out what gear to use in a game this straight-forward, you are beyond help.
    you can't because it doesn't.

    I just did. now you answer me this: How do you learn all those things if you have no idea that you are udnerperforming? If you are sitting there, with the crystals you got from the game/saw on the welcome screen, with your recommended glyph set-up, with your random compilation of yellow stat rolls, breaking your spacebar with the recommended chains, standing in that spot that doesn't seem to get any red circles...how do you know you are doing something wrong when you are doing exactly what the game tells you to do?
    lol sorc backcrit build? any build based on backcrits was viable...dunno what build forums you were looking at...the only NON backcrit build was for primarily SOLO players. as to your 'less damage' BS...which is what it is, you played with some lousy players then. and a DPS meter wouldn't have helped them at ALL...since you know it doesn't do a [filtered] thing but show damage. see above. so kindly STOP trying to claim it can help, players learning the class, learning builds or copying them, learning rotations and playing classes they're comfortable with. this game is more of a /fighterbrawler than a classic style mmo...care to argue that? as there is no point in using dps meters in fighters, there's no point in using one in tera.

    except to brag.

    I wasn't looking at forums, I was looking inside the game. And, yeah, there were a lot of lousy players with opinions back then. Not sure why contradicting your own argument(that before dps meters were wide-spread everyone was superpro) helps your case, but, hey, who am I to question your decisions.
    Did you know that a lot of people are too lazy to look up guides on the internet? A dps meter is an in-your-face " you are doing it wrong" statement that can at least tell those people they need to go and look for those guides, learn those things. But you'd rather they never figure out that they are actually bad, huh. and that's the point you are missing. You don't need a dps meter to tell you how you are doing. Great, neither do I. But a lot of people do need it. If they didn't, we wouldn't be seeing so many people with all the wrong things. Unless your argument is that people who do 100k/sec in SS NM and LK Nm are aware they are playing badly but do so by choice and not because they simply don't know any better. If that's the case, I'll gladly take that free-kicks card you are offering and presume there are no unknowingly bad players and everyone who's bad is just a troll.

    PS: Is your next argument going to be "But dps meter doesn't make me coffee in the morning so it's useless"?

    thanks for proving my point...SEVERAL TIMES. it's ALL up to the player thinking. movement, gear, crystals, rotations...lol. meter provides nothing for any of that.

    further, did you know that more people want guides more than meters in this game? or guidance? since a meter can't help you with what you're doing wrong? rofl. want to try again? help me further prove my point that a meter is useless in this game? that EVERYTHING comes down to the player learning how to play their character? and that by your own argument...a dps meter doesn't help that AT ALL. this is what happens when you try to rationalize something you want without any actual basis in reality to back it up. it's a totally useless piece of software for this game except for elitests and braggarts.

    it can't tell you how to play better, a fact YOU yourself pointed out...lol. so...better to just learn how to play in the first place than installing a piece of software that does NOTHING to help you get better.

    How do you think people write their guides?

    There are people that wrote guides before using dps meters, what brouth dps meters is for them to be more acurate and givin they a mean to get faster their analizis over a certain skill, rotation, issue, etc.

    Truth is that no one is going to die if dps meter don't even exist and good players are going to be good, players that like to learn will still be able to learn, the dps meter is only a tool to do some things more easy to understand. Is like the calculator on school, is a tool that will help you to get a result but if you get to dependant to it then it hurt you more than it help you.

    Most of those guides are not even close to the quality of today's guides, almost all of which (if not all of them) have some meter usage. The crit chance formula that's used today was estimated using a meter to obtain a large sample size (base crit chance, crit chance glyphs), how Carving crystals work (benefits Gunners/some Harrowhold classes) came from meter stats, skill breakdowns per class, number of hits per skill (like how Lightning Strike should have more hits than Meteor Strike), etc.

    I'm pretty sure that being able to use TOOLS is important in everyday life. There's nothing wrong with being dependent on a calculator if you understand how to use it properly.
  • YitharYithar ✭✭✭
    Haloist wrote: »
    If you're playing either tank and healer and think that doing your job equates to carrying the dps, then I have no idea why (unless you're really that egoistic) you're even playing MMOs which feature the holy trinity, since it's obviously not your cup of tea.

    Doing my job doesn't equate to carrying. Doing my job and doing 2-3x their DPS and mechanics with Smoke Flanker (i.e. their job) is carrying.
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Statement: Now, that being said, if it turns out that you are in fact going out of your way to offer advice to and help out the so-called underperforming player and they then rebuff you for it (unless you thought it was a good idea to be an [filtered] about it, in which case what did you expect would happen?), then you and I have no argument. They are a scrub of the highest caliber, and as the phrase goes: you can't fix stupid.

    It's happened many times in the past. It's why I'm hesitant to offer advice anymore.
  • Consider this scenario:
    You are the leader of an HH raid (which has shield phases that will cause the entire raid to wipe) and you love every single person that is in your raid. If 2 groups break the shield phase and 2 don't consistently what do you do? Without a dps meter you won't be able to tell who in the two groups that break can swap with people in the groups that don't break. It can help you spread the dps evenly. Without a meter you just flip flop everyone everywhere and just hope that it'll work.
    What is the solution to this without a meter?
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    DGDM7ALXHM wrote: »
    Consider this scenario:
    You are the leader of an HH raid (which has shield phases that will cause the entire raid to wipe) and you love every single person that is in your raid. If 2 groups break the shield phase and 2 don't consistently what do you do? Without a dps meter you won't be able to tell who in the two groups that break can swap with people in the groups that don't break. It can help you spread the dps evenly. Without a meter you just flip flop everyone everywhere and just hope that it'll work.
    What is the solution to this without a meter?

    Playing as it has been done since the old times, most of people on HH that aim to clear the dungeon knows each other or at least knows howwell they play and do their rol. Before the "damage meter" era people give feedback about what could be done. Now that kind of interaction is over, is killed, the dps meter tell you someone is doing poor dps but then again, without the feedback of others how can you know if that lack of dps was something that can be rised with the same groups without moving players?

    You still keep talking as if the damage meter tells you if everything is dps and nothing in the game has mechanics.
  • Why are you still discussing this? The answer is obvious, let me explain with a real life analogy.

    If you're an A+ student, you naturally love tests because it lets you show off how smart you are. Even though tests aren't perfect indicators of ability, you don't really care since you do well and they do measure ability adequately.
    If you are a D- student, you hate tests because they make you feel inadequate and that in turn makes you very critical of the testing system and you'll start saying things like "tests don't actually measure anything useful, you can still get through life without tests".
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Nathynn wrote: »
    The first paragraph was an exaggeration. A huge one to be honest, and to be taken in jest for the most part. I outlined that damage dealers do no more "carrying" then non damage dealers. If you didn't understand that, not my issue..

    This is not even an exaggeration based on the points below:

    1. "I play tanks and healers. I play them because the role of tank or healer is more important then any other role in a group."

    How is this an exaggeration when in certain dungeons, tanks and healers are indeed more important?

    2. "I am tired of having to carry these damage dealers through the dungeons that are available. I do not like to have to babysit the boss and turn them in a specific direction so these macro consumed, damage meter needing children can do what they were designed to do. I am tired of having to resurrect that damage dealer after they eat a mechanic in hopes of getting just a little bit more out of their precious meter."

    Do I know you? Am I supposed to know if you're genuinely tired of playing as tank/healer due to your unjustified beliefs of what dps are doing wrong? Exaggeration only works if we know each other.


    The only parts where you even seemed to be exaggerating are the parts where you ask for dungeons to be released for tanks/healers only where no DPS is involved, so I'm not sure how you can call such a post an exaggeration, when in fact, it's a rather failed attempt at exaggerating.

    The most important point here is, that you seem to be unclear (though I'm not sure reasonably how) by what we mean by "carrying". It's definitely not in the same sense as what you said in your post, and I believe the other posts have made it clear enough. In that case, your reply was totally off topic.
    The "carrying" we mean is bringing someone along through a dungeon where said someone does not pull his own weight, aka not doing his job as a dps. Is this clear enough for you?
    Nathynn wrote: »
    If you think that is an over generalization, this again is your issue.

    Err, say what? Please visit the link I've posted above to get an understanding of what generalisation means, because it seems to me that you do not understand what it means and is trying to place the fault on me. It doesn't matter if it's just your experience, as long as you're making a point with it. If you need me to show you which parts of your post were generalisations, here they are:

    1. "Every game that has access to a damage meter, by either locally implementing one, or having one installed third party makes the game worse."

    2. "The main problem is the use of a damage meter to be enlightening and constructive is almost never the case."

    This can be considered generalisation since it is implied from this statement that most of us defending the use of DPS meter are BSing.

    3. "The first thing it does to cause damage is it forces people to rely on meter instead of being one of three or more DPS in a group of DPS players."

    No modal auxiliary verbs used in the sentence to indicate it's a likelihood instead of an outright fact.

    4. "Players attempt to simulate on a computer program the amount of damage dealt based on numbers punched into a spreadsheet, without any calculation to the variables in a boss fight or the network itself."

    Why "players" and not "some players"? It's like me saying "Players who post on TERA forums are stupid". Obviously not everyone who posts on TERA forums are stupid, but I'm stating it like everyone is stupid, which is similar to what you're doing. Do I need to be an english teacher to teach you how to write to make sure your points are not misinterpreted? It doesn't matter what your intentions are, but if you don't write properly, don't blame others for calling you out for generalising.

    5. "The final blow of the damage meter is what it does to the development itself. After a while players figure out what mechanics they can avoid and/or ignore to get the most damage out of an encounter. the developers then have to tailor make dungeon mechanics based on 100% unavoidable damage."

    How are you so sure that the devs tailored made dungeon mechanics due to damage meters? If you're not, why are you stating it like it's a fact? This is a generalisation based on your own experience of how things are done by other game devs. Not every game dev is the same you know?

    I could probably find more examples, but this should suffice.
    Nathynn wrote: »
    Group play is a thing, simulationcraft is a thing, triage healing is a thing. These are not generalizations, unless of course you need me to explain them to you.

    It's very ironic that you seemingly care about the discussion, yet you resort to picking the smallest side details out of the big main points you're trying to make, just to disprove that you're generalising. That's not how it works, mind you. I'm attacking the substance of your entire essay, and not these minor details you're pointing out here, so pointing these things out doesn't invalidate my initial accusation by any means.
    Nathynn wrote: »
    I did not say that EVERYONE who uses damage meters is elitist. In fact I never even used the word elitist. the word elite, yes, in the context of their being elite at what they do, not their personality traits. What I did say to be more specific then my first post is, in MY experience after playing a dozen MMO's is......then the rest of my essay.

    Indeed, you did not SPECIFICALLY say EVERYONE, but how you wrote implied so, so it doesn't matter.
    Secondly, how does "those elite 'spotlight rangers" who top charts berate anyone else who deviates from a different build so often" not mean elitist?
    Lastly, it doesn't matter if you stated early in your post that it is YOUR experience. As long as your intention is to discuss about the main topic, what you have written is an argument in itself, and is therefore up for criticism regardless of how you or someone else feels about it.
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    DGDM7ALXHM wrote: »
    Consider this scenario:
    You are the leader of an HH raid (which has shield phases that will cause the entire raid to wipe) and you love every single person that is in your raid. If 2 groups break the shield phase and 2 don't consistently what do you do? Without a dps meter you won't be able to tell who in the two groups that break can swap with people in the groups that don't break. It can help you spread the dps evenly. Without a meter you just flip flop everyone everywhere and just hope that it'll work.
    What is the solution to this without a meter?

    Playing as it has been done since the old times, most of people on HH that aim to clear the dungeon knows each other or at least knows howwell they play and do their rol. Before the "damage meter" era people give feedback about what could be done. Now that kind of interaction is over, is killed, the dps meter tell you someone is doing poor dps but then again, without the feedback of others how can you know if that lack of dps was something that can be rised with the same groups without moving players?

    You still keep talking as if the damage meter tells you if everything is dps and nothing in the game has mechanics.

    Please stop generalising that EVERYONE who uses dps meters WILL judge someone based on the numbers shown on the meter, WITHOUT asking for their feedback. It doesn't help in promoting discussion but instead promotes hate and dislike for opposing parties.
    How can you guys claim that removing the DPS meters will do more good, when you cannot even put your biased opinions aside to better discuss things with us DPS meter supporters?
  • Xerray wrote: »
    Lets not forget that without dps meters and receiving such a big feedback from community about every class performing differently, BHS would refuse to ever balance the classes. Without ppl being aware of the average dps and so on, BHS would still be in denial.

    TBH i've never met any parties harrassing players with dps meters. The point is you just have to find alike ppl to stick to and play with, like in every other game/sport.

    This is exactly why Korea does not want a dps meter in the game, the amount of classes to be balanced vs each other is quite high.
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