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Ingame DPS meeter ?

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Comments

  • Vicy wrote: »
    Those who are declaring that the DPS meters only use is to further isolate and chastise the newer community and gives elitists a method of doing so clearly are not educated on the actual Tera community. Elitists who are strongly dedicated to deterring and excluding new members will do so without the help of the DPS meter. If you're looking to correct the issue you might as well remove the "Skilled or Rookie" Title for dungeons. Oh, and remove all gear too since anyone under +15 won't be allowed into parties.

    My point is, you all will find that this will actually have little to no change whether you are kicked or not in a party. It is the rookie's job to look up and read about mechanics to dungeons since there are multitudes of guides online. @Magichan is right, it is not our job as skilled players to carry new people through every dungeon. They are not learning the mechanics in that matter. They are being carried.

    I don't see anything in the posts in this thread that suggest that at least some parts of the Tera community won't use such a tool to isolate themselves from players they consider to be inferior. Every game has elitists that thing they are above others and have no hesitation using a DPS meter to exclude those they don't feel make the cut.

    It is the job of nobody to look up and read about dungeon mechanics. This is a game, not an occupation. One has fun... and best learns... by doing, not by researching as though preparing to write a doctorate thesis.
  • DeadX wrote: »

    they're for the lazy sods who don't want to think in other words. who don't understand the game or who want to do stupid things like all out dps with no regard to handling aggro or their own safety relying solely on healers. ANYONE can figure out how well r badly they do without meters...and did for YEARS. not that hard. but every nub wants a crutch instead of learning the game except in the case of tera that crutch doesn't even HELP. since it won't teach you positioning, it won't teach when and how to use your skills, it won't teach when to avoid damage. it won't IMPROVE you or tell you HOW TO IMPROVE.

    this isn't like every other mmo that has a meter where you can face roll skills and your gear soaks damage. the games where a meter is actually useful BECAUSE of the limited combat options.

    DPS meters can be useful for those wishing to improve their performance. Having more data to consider is always better than less when numbers are involved. Of course they don't help you with anything not related to numbers. However, despite Tera being a more action based game than many the numbers still mean something.

    People used to walk everywhere for years too. That doesn't stop them from using cars now. Just because at one time players didn't have access to tools such as these is no argument against some wanting to use them now that they are available.

    There is simply nothing wrong with DPS meters in and of themselves, or the intended use of them. The potential issue isn't with the tool, but with how that tool may be used by some in the community in ways other than that intended ... such as exclusion... and what negative repercussions could result for players at large.
  • YitharYithar ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    3. they show how everyone in the party is performing in an objective way and, if needed, who needs to be removed in order for the run to end in a clear and not a ragequit

    That awkward moment where every DPS needs to removed from the party in AINM since not a single one of them can kill adds and the healer has to call them out on their performance.
  • TWMagimay wrote: »
    >
    Magichan wrote: »
    >
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Realiance wrote: »
    This is a mmo and therefore cooperative.

    Exactly. And if somebody is a dead weight, then they are not cooperating with the rest and should be removed. Unless you think "cooperative" means "carrying" in which case you can find a guild with people willing to do that for you.
    Magichan wrote: »
    > Yeah, removing a new dps on ssnm or lknm because in his slaughter and almost non-existent mechanics knowledge he is making your run 30 secs longer. Right?
    >
    > That is better than telling him what he should do to avoid death and do more damage.
    >
    > But is better for us who have BiS or mid tier gear and knowledge to neglect the posibility of new players to improve in that very same run. Right?

    Whats stopping them from playing with other new players? Why are they owed carries?
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    SageWindu wrote: »
    I admit I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the finer workings of MMO culture. Why are DPS meters so coveted?

    Like... I seriously do not understand the big deal.

    Because:
    1. they allow you to compare your performance to other people and see how you are doing(potentially urging you to seek help from those who are doing better)
    2. they allow you to easily compare different builds and decide on what's best(for you)
    3. they show how everyone in the party is performing in an objective way and, if needed, who needs to be removed in order for the run to end in a clear and not a ragequit



    You do not know who I am to say that I'm carrying people or that I'm being carried by someone.
    I do not need to humiliate people because I'm strong in game. I play for my amusement and of my friends.
    This discourse fled the subject, and you all showed your bitter opinion.
    I would give them a banana as a premium but one should not feed cancer.


  • DeadXDeadX ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    KnightFalz wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »

    they're for the lazy sods who don't want to think in other words. who don't understand the game or who want to do stupid things like all out dps with no regard to handling aggro or their own safety relying solely on healers. ANYONE can figure out how well r badly they do without meters...and did for YEARS. not that hard. but every nub wants a crutch instead of learning the game except in the case of tera that crutch doesn't even HELP. since it won't teach you positioning, it won't teach when and how to use your skills, it won't teach when to avoid damage. it won't IMPROVE you or tell you HOW TO IMPROVE.

    this isn't like every other mmo that has a meter where you can face roll skills and your gear soaks damage. the games where a meter is actually useful BECAUSE of the limited combat options.

    DPS meters can be useful for those wishing to improve their performance. Having more data to consider is always better than less when numbers are involved. Of course they don't help you with anything not related to numbers. However, despite Tera being a more action based game than many the numbers still mean something.

    People used to walk everywhere for years too. That doesn't stop them from using cars now. Just because at one time players didn't have access to tools such as these is no argument against some wanting to use them now that they are available.

    There is simply nothing wrong with DPS meters in and of themselves, or the intended use of them. The potential issue isn't with the tool, but with how that tool may be used by some in the community in ways other than that intended ... such as exclusion... and what negative repercussions could result for players at large.

    walking isn't a game kid. learn to analogy. i gave a clear example when dps meters are actually USEFUL, you should have kept that in mind. this IS NOT a game where they're useful OR necessary. can you read your combat log? can you see how much damage you do or take? why YES YOU CAN. going to try and deny for the years in this game there wasn't one that NO ONE COULD DO ANYTHING? well, you can't. so your entire claim of them being necessary is bull. they aren't. useful? for what? they don't TELL you what you're doing wrong now do they? they also don't tell you what you're doing right, they can't tell you where to be and when or what skills to use. going to claim they can?

    my point was NEVER that they didn't have access so they shouldn't NOW, learn to read. it was as stated above, they are not NECESSARY, not USEFUL, not BUILT for this type of game. dps meters came about for mmo's that have far less in the way of ANY combat options. tab target faceroll repeat games. WoW, STO, DDO, AION, etc. where how you move, when to move, etc is less or totally irrelevant to combat and damage output...going to deny that? i think not. just because you used something in another style of game doesn't mean it's suitable or useful for EVERY GAME. dps meters in CoD? overwatch? what would be the point? street fighter? mortal kombat? again, what would be the point? tera is more like those than any classic mmo.

    your dps is timing, knowledge and movement. not standing and trading blows until something dies. that's a fact. because if you try and stand toe to toe with a boss or a bam and just trade...it's going to win flat out. just like in any brawler if you only go for offense and no timing, movements, and counters, you're going to lose there as well. shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp if you're a 'gamer' who understands teras system.
  • JenieveJenieve ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    game
    ɡām/
    noun
    noun: game; plural noun: games

    1.
    a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

    In any game or sport you play with people of similar class. You will never see a light weight against a heavy weight because you will get hurt as a light weight. You will not see peewee soccer players in professional games because you will not stand up as an equal. This is the same in mmos. If you are not playing well groups of higher caliber will not play with you. There is the odd exception to the rule, but that is the exception not the rule.

    That's not bullying. And if someone happens to post your dps and asks you if you need help .. you should say, "Thanks for asking!" Again not bullying, but helping.

    Bullies are the guys that call you sht, follow you around and harass you because you are a low dps player. And those people are far and few between. But if you join a "speed run" and are doing 100k while the others in the group are doing 1m, they are well within their right to remove you from the group - not bullying the standard was set at the beginning.
  • DeadX wrote: »
    walking isn't a game kid. learn to analogy. i gave a clear example when dps meters are actually USEFUL, you should have kept that in mind. this IS NOT a game where they're useful OR necessary. can you read your combat log? can you see how much damage you do or take? why YES YOU CAN. going to try and deny for the years in this game there wasn't one that NO ONE COULD DO ANYTHING? well, you can't. so your entire claim of them being necessary is bull. they aren't. useful? for what? they don't TELL you what you're doing wrong now do they? they also don't tell you what you're doing right, they can't tell you where to be and when or what skills to use. going to claim they can?

    my point was NEVER that they didn't have access so they shouldn't NOW, learn to read. it was as stated above, they are not NECESSARY, not USEFUL, not BUILT for this type of game. dps meters came about for mmo's that have far less in the way of ANY combat options. tab target faceroll repeat games. WoW, STO, DDO, AION, etc. where how you move, when to move, etc is less or totally irrelevant to combat and damage output...going to deny that? i think not. just because you used something in another style of game doesn't mean it's suitable or useful for EVERY GAME. dps meters in CoD? overwatch? what would be the point? street fighter? mortal kombat? again, what would be the point? tera is more like those than any classic mmo.

    your dps is timing, knowledge and movement. not standing and trading blows until something dies. that's a fact. because if you try and stand toe to toe with a boss or a bam and just trade...it's going to win flat out. just like in any brawler if you only go for offense and no timing, movements, and counters, you're going to lose there as well. shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp if you're a 'gamer' who understands teras system.

    My analogy was clear and apt.

    DPS meters are useful in any game where you do damage rated in numbers.

    You may be the greatest multi-tasker in the world, but it is not my habit to read combat logs in precise detail while in combat.

    I never said DPS meters are necessary. I said they have legitimate uses.

    My point was just because someone didn't have access to something doesn't illegitimate their use upon becoming available.

    DPS meters tell you how much damage you are doing. If you change what you are doing they will provide you with new data. By observing the changes in data over time you will be able to determine optimal damage output, all other factors being equal.

    That it wouldn't be quite as useful in games where positioning isn't as much a factor does not negate that it is useful.

    Whatever the process is in delivering that damage... whether you stand there like a lump, or jump around like a spastic weasel on a sugar rush having a seizure... whenever you do inflict damage the numbers you can produce matter.

    X + 1 > X. Trying to pretend this isn't so in a game that involves numbers is just plain silly.
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Okay, so now I'm confused.

    People who are for the DPS meters, clarify something for me please? A lot of you are saying that you like meters to be used as a "harmless" (<--key word there) benchmark for player performance while also saying that should someone be under par, you have better grounds to boot them from parties.

    So... you want to use raw numbers in order to help someone by possibly further alienating them from potential experience should they underperform. Am I the only one who sees several things wrong with this? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because from what I'm reading, I think the people against meters have the right of it - too many people would use them against the intended design, and would further fracture an already heavily splintered playerbase (who else remembers Blast from the Past?).

    Remember, one bad apple spoils the bunch. All there needs to be is just *one* person to use it as a [filtered]-swinging contest and kick someone from a party, and we're all right back at square one. And what would that accomplish?

    Again, someone please prove me wrong. No sarcasm whatsoever - I honestly want you to do it.
  • SageWindu wrote: »
    Okay, so now I'm confused.

    People who are for the DPS meters, clarify something for me please? A lot of you are saying that you like meters to be used as a "harmless" (<--
    key word there) benchmark for player performance while also saying that should someone be under par, you have better grounds to boot them from parties.

    So... you want to use raw numbers in order to help someone by possibly further alienating them from potential experience should they underperform. Am I the only one who sees several things wrong with this? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because from what I'm reading, I think the people against meters have the right of it - too many people would use them against the intended design, and would further fracture an already heavily splintered playerbase (who else remembers Blast from the Past?).

    Remember, one bad apple spoils the bunch. All there needs to be is just *one* person to use it as a [filtered]-swinging contest and kick someone from a party, and we're all right back at square one. And what would that accomplish?

    Again, someone please prove me wrong. No sarcasm whatsoever - I honestly want you to do it.

    Simply put, there are always going to be people and players in games who believe they are superior beings to life. if not with a DPS meter, they will abuse and find any way to exclude people they don't see as equals. taking a toy away from a bully doesn't make him less of one.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Okay, so now I'm confused.

    People who are for the DPS meters, clarify something for me please? A lot of you are saying that you like meters to be used as a "harmless" (<--
    key word there) benchmark for player performance while also saying that should someone be under par, you have better grounds to boot them from parties.

    So... you want to use raw numbers in order to help someone by possibly further alienating them from potential experience should they underperform. Am I the only one who sees several things wrong with this? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because from what I'm reading, I think the people against meters have the right of it - too many people would use them against the intended design, and would further fracture an already heavily splintered playerbase (who else remembers Blast from the Past?).

    Remember, one bad apple spoils the bunch. All there needs to be is just *one* person to use it as a [filtered]-swinging contest and kick someone from a party, and we're all right back at square one. And what would that accomplish?

    Again, someone please prove me wrong. No sarcasm whatsoever - I honestly want you to do it.

    My experience with DPS meter using players led to only one kick so far, that wasn't completed because there was one of those "calm down" folks that just has to defend whoever is on the worst side. That specific one (almost) kick went that way:
    There was this one player who was doing less than 1/4 of the 2nd lowest DPS (I was on Priest so he was literally pretty close to MY DPS), we then inspected him to see if something was wrong (as a Priest I knew he was sucking in position and was dying all the time literally staring into every red he saw), talked to him like "I would advise you to change this crystal for this other one, it will improve your DPS significantly", also were talking to him about his positioning and teaching the mechanics, when suddenly he replies "Suck my d****" we go like "hey, it's not like we're bashing you or anything, don't get us wrong, we just teaching you", again: "F*** you, suck my d****" then I don't take this BS anymore and just reply with "Don't start to get all cocky if we're trying to help when you're crap you know" replies on same note as always, then I go pretty blunt "Don't forget you're disposable. We could either run with 4 cause you're doing nothing or we can kick you and get another DPS quickly to be better, so back down and don't bother". Guess what he did? Ye he kept the troll atitude and even tho he didn't get kicked I entered the mud fight and just let him dead the whole 3rd boss, all the while he was cussing and shooting racist stuff.

    That's literally the only negative moment I've had with DPS meter, and it was from a player who was underperforming and refused to accept any tips or at least stay quiet, he just had to be a troll.

    Every other case I've had on the game regarding the DPS meter has been no more than curious statistics, or downright competition between the two top ones in a healthy manner. I've been underperforming many times while some used the meter, and I took it as a way to analyze my play style to fix rotations, rolls, crystals and positioning. For once I tried a power build on zerk, and it proved bad. That did help me a lot, knowing I was rock bottom but I could see the reason.

    In absolutely no case when I was bad or downright sucking, I got called out or the likes, mostly no one cared about my low DPS when I did it, just I butted in and trolled myself even. That's the spirit, some do more than others. Sometimes you just wanna know if you're doing well or not.

    It does help that my attitude on any dungeon is laid back and helping, and that I try to be the less burden on a healer that I can. Healers never ever complain about my low DPS when I'm not getting hit at all, that's also part of being in a party. Some get hit more and hit more, some get hit less and hit less. That later one is me. Any experienced player sees it, not to mention the DPS meters also (some of them if I recall, never used it) show also the damage received, and the damage healed.

    I remember one occasion where two players were fighting on Global about their DPS and how one does more DPS on mid tier than the other in VM and I was there just watching it all and making it burn stronger (heck yeah I'm not saint as well), they ended up taking the bickering and their own fight into the dungeon and I went there as a heal like "Well let's see then if either of you is up to your claims, I'm going there to heal ya both, let's see who's good. Just not allowed to face tank OK?!" That was quite fun, it's like those friends that fist fight hard and then after the fight laugh it off. That's the spirit.


    wew [filtered] ended long eh
  • If everyone would be realistic ... we could see that no one gets bullied cuz of a dps meeter... there are already a lot of bad things happening in the comunity and if we make something that the majority of
    players already used for some years.. legal by adding it in game... the harm is almost nonexistant...
    today i caried a sloughter zerk in ssnm he was blocking every mechanic and he kept shouting "why it isnt working"... i didnt have a dps meeter but im sure he didnt do much... as he was dieing at every mechanic... we kept him there and some tried to tell him he has to move... no one told him anything bad... and after 9 mins on last boss we cleared with him and he got the items...he didnt even say thx or something.... he kept swearing at...the instance o.0...
    if these are the players you are fighting so hard to protect... you should take responsability for the state of the comunity...
    Im happy we are having a constructive conversation over here .. its important to see the pro's and the con's of a posible solution...
  • Obelix wrote: »
    If everyone would be realistic ... we could see that no one gets bullied cuz of a dps meeter... there are already a lot of bad things happening in the comunity and if we make something that the majority of
    players already used for some years.. legal by adding it in game... the harm is almost nonexistant...
    today i caried a sloughter zerk in ssnm he was blocking every mechanic and he kept shouting "why it isnt working"... i didnt have a dps meeter but im sure he didnt do much... as he was dieing at every mechanic... we kept him there and some tried to tell him he has to move... no one told him anything bad... and after 9 mins on last boss we cleared with him and he got the items...he didnt even say thx or something.... he kept swearing at...the instance o.0...
    if these are the players you are fighting so hard to protect... you should take responsability for the state of the comunity...
    Im happy we are having a constructive conversation over here .. its important to see the pro's and the con's of a posible solution...

    I can't even begin to talk about how many people have joined in the same guild as me and have been taught how to DPS. Why not to use certain skills/crystals/etc. I was even advertising for a while how we will help anyone who wants to learn to get better. Some of our better players we met in ssnm and they had no clue what they were doing until they were shown meters.
  • DPS meters have been used as a means to bully players in games that have them. Anyone paying the least amount of attention in such games see it happening. It isn't a question of would it happen, but rather would it happen to such a degree that the negative affects of adding a DPS meter to the game would be greater than the positive ones.

    From what I've seen, games that feature or favour them aren't prone to having the best of communities. with DPS being prominently used as a means of exclusion of the unwashed masses by those that feel they are the elite.

    I don't see why it would be any different here.

    Be that as it may, it really doesn't matter to me if a DPS meter is added to the game. If it should come to pass I will have my own uses for it.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Your other points are sound, but that last one displays a colossal problem within the community.

    However, that statement makes the dichotomy both for and against DPS meters make so much more sense. In fact, I'm seeing a pattern...

    Wanting to finish a dungeon is a colossal problem within the community?
    DeadX wrote: »
    they're for the lazy sods who don't want to think in other words. who don't understand the game or who want to do stupid things like all out dps with no regard to handling aggro or their own safety relying solely on healers. ANYONE can figure out how well r badly they do without meters...and did for YEARS. not that hard. but every nub wants a crutch instead of learning the game except in the case of tera that crutch doesn't even HELP. since it won't teach you positioning, it won't teach when and how to use your skills, it won't teach when to avoid damage. it won't IMPROVE you or tell you HOW TO IMPROVE.

    this isn't like every other mmo that has a meter where you can face roll skills and your gear soaks damage. the games where a meter is actually useful BECAUSE of the limited combat options.

    So why are so many people doing 1/10th of the dps they are supposed to be doing while also dying to every mechanic? Are they being purposefully bad? Because that contradicts every single " newbies just need a chance" post in this topic as, according to you, those newbies are very much aware of how poorly they are performing, they just refuse to improve. I will admit, this does make kicking people that much easier.
    As for your inability to utilise a dps meter, well, that's your problem.

    Oh, and:
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Yeah, removing a new dps on ssnm or lknm because in his slaughter and almost non-existent mechanics knowledge he is making your run 30 secs longer. Right?

    That is better than telling him what he should do to avoid death and do more damage.

    But is better for us who have BiS or mid tier gear and knowledge to neglect the posibility of new players to improve in that very same run. Right?

    It's not about the 30 seconds longer. It's about people who never open their mouth to say " hey, I don't really know what I'm doing, can you explain it to me?" It's about people who never check out -anything- before entering a dungeon. A while back I "lucked" into a mystic who had recently returned to the game and decided to queue for SC HM without as much as looking through their glyph page. And when I tried to explain VoC to him, he yelled at me and called me an elitist. So, you can take your attitude with you as you get booted from the party. I'm under no obligation to put up with baddies who think they are owed my time and my effort. You wanna improve? Ask. You don't know you need to improve? Not my problem.
  • KnightFalz wrote: »
    Typed words have been used as a means to bully players in games that have chat. Anyone paying the least amount of attention in such games see it happening. It isn't a question of would it happen, but rather would it happen to such a degree that the negative affects of adding a chat box to the game would be greater than the positive ones.

    From what I've seen, games that feature or favour them aren't prone to having the best of communities. with typing being prominently used as a means of exclusion of the unwashed masses by those that feel they are the elite.

    I don't see why it would be any different here.

    Be that as it may, it really doesn't matter to me if a chat box is added to the game. If it should come to pass I will have my own uses for it.

    /altered to illustrate a point.

    We should not throw the baby out with the bath water, mean people will exist with or without a chat box and dps meter.

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