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Ingame DPS meeter ?

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Comments

  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    I will throw this question into the air.

    If your dps in question isn't even high, would you rather stay as your usual low dps self and make that excuse of "I am a casual, it doesn't matter" or do something about it and actually improve your own dungeon runs as a whole?

    This is the only game i have played that requires the player to know how to handle their class properly in order to do damage.

    An in game dps meter (with no chat pastes) will help immensely in helping the player know how to improve their skills. The only reason why it is used for harassment is really that they allow pastes.

    In a scenario where there is an official dps meter, if I see one person having a lower-than-average rate, I would take note of their rotations, tell them very nicely where they are doing wrong and they could see their own dps increasing. This is one of the better uses of this kind of device rather than showing off a 3mil/s run lol.
  • DeadXDeadX ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    they're for the lazy sods who don't want to think in other words. who don't understand the game or who want to do stupid things like all out dps with no regard to handling aggro or their own safety relying solely on healers. ANYONE can figure out how well r badly they do without meters...and did for YEARS. not that hard. but every nub wants a crutch instead of learning the game except in the case of tera that crutch doesn't even HELP. since it won't teach you positioning, it won't teach when and how to use your skills, it won't teach when to avoid damage. it won't IMPROVE you or tell you HOW TO IMPROVE.

    this isn't like every other mmo that has a meter where you can face roll skills and your gear soaks damage. the games where a meter is actually useful BECAUSE of the limited combat options.

    So why are so many people doing 1/10th of the dps they are supposed to be doing while also dying to every mechanic? Are they being purposefully bad? Because that contradicts every single " newbies just need a chance" post in this topic as, according to you, those newbies are very much aware of how poorly they are performing, they just refuse to improve. I will admit, this does make kicking people that much easier.
    As for your inability to utilise a dps meter, well, that's your problem.

    lol "why are so many doing 1/10 the dps" well it's not because they don't have dps meters. point of fact you and the rest seem to keep forgetting is that DPS meters weren't around for tera at the start. what you say? was everyone doing only 1/10 of the damage? with TOUGHER BAMS AND BOSSES? why no they were NOT. blows that BS out of the water. care to try again?
    KnightFalz wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    walking isn't a game kid. learn to analogy. i gave a clear example when dps meters are actually USEFUL, you should have kept that in mind. this IS NOT a game where they're useful OR necessary. can you read your combat log? can you see how much damage you do or take? why YES YOU CAN. going to try and deny for the years in this game there wasn't one that NO ONE COULD DO ANYTHING? well, you can't. so your entire claim of them being necessary is bull. they aren't. useful? for what? they don't TELL you what you're doing wrong now do they? they also don't tell you what you're doing right, they can't tell you where to be and when or what skills to use. going to claim they can?

    my point was NEVER that they didn't have access so they shouldn't NOW, learn to read. it was as stated above, they are not NECESSARY, not USEFUL, not BUILT for this type of game. dps meters came about for mmo's that have far less in the way of ANY combat options. tab target faceroll repeat games. WoW, STO, DDO, AION, etc. where how you move, when to move, etc is less or totally irrelevant to combat and damage output...going to deny that? i think not. just because you used something in another style of game doesn't mean it's suitable or useful for EVERY GAME. dps meters in CoD? overwatch? what would be the point? street fighter? mortal kombat? again, what would be the point? tera is more like those than any classic mmo.

    your dps is timing, knowledge and movement. not standing and trading blows until something dies. that's a fact. because if you try and stand toe to toe with a boss or a bam and just trade...it's going to win flat out. just like in any brawler if you only go for offense and no timing, movements, and counters, you're going to lose there as well. shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp if you're a 'gamer' who understands teras system.

    My analogy was clear and apt.

    DPS meters are useful in any game where you do damage rated in numbers.

    You may be the greatest multi-tasker in the world, but it is not my habit to read combat logs in precise detail while in combat.

    I never said DPS meters are necessary. I said they have legitimate uses.

    My point was just because someone didn't have access to something doesn't illegitimate their use upon becoming available.

    DPS meters tell you how much damage you are doing. If you change what you are doing they will provide you with new data. By observing the changes in data over time you will be able to determine optimal damage output, all other factors being equal.

    That it wouldn't be quite as useful in games where positioning isn't as much a factor does not negate that it is useful.

    Whatever the process is in delivering that damage... whether you stand there like a lump, or jump around like a spastic weasel on a sugar rush having a seizure... whenever you do inflict damage the numbers you can produce matter.

    X + 1 > X. Trying to pretend this isn't so in a game that involves numbers is just plain silly.

    your analogy was crap kid. still is. a meter won't tell you what you're doing wrong, as i stated, and i told you to deny that if you can...you can't, so instead you throw up more irrelevant "points" that in no way show dps meters are necessary...while claiming at the same time they aren't...which is it? they don't have a "legitimate" use in this style of game. proven by the fact that the game and players didn't need them at all before and many don't even bother with them now.

    for both of you, show me where a dps meter will tell you howto optimize output against a variety of bosses or bams eh? teach you how to move, teach you how to apply skills at opportune moments to maximize output? why they DON'T. i can WATCH a player and know whether they know their class or not...as anyone with experience in this game SHOULD be able to do...as well as watch how they themselves perform. do you both have such poor memories you can't remember what shows on your screen and when? when those big numbers pop up? are you disabled in that fashion?

    i mean if you have such poor short term memories i suppose you do need an aid...a crutch to help you get by. but then again you probably shouldn't be playing such a tough game...or any since most require at least a modicum of memory retention.

    both of you along with the rest who want these silly meters mainly wantthem because they're bragging tools and they're something you're used to from other games. you still cannot show me where they teach you a damn THING. because they DON'T. and you'd be a liar claiming that they do. they don't teach you positioning, they don't teach you timing, they don't teach you skill rotations or crystal/gear setups.

    they do NOTHING but display how much damage you did or did not do, no tips, no guides, nothing else. prove me wrong? oh wait...you can't.

  • KarmaTheAlligatorKarmaTheAlligator ✭✭✭✭✭
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    So why are so many people doing 1/10th of the dps they are supposed to be doing while also dying to every mechanic? Are they being purposefully bad? Because that contradicts every single " newbies just need a chance" post in this topic as, according to you, those newbies are very much aware of how poorly they are performing, they just refuse to improve.

    How does that contradict the 'newbies need a chance'? Obviously newbies aren't going to perform optimally, so they do need a chance (or a few).

    But yes, there are plenty of people who are bad and don't care, who want to be carried. People who want to improve do so even without a meter.
  • Or maybe instead of asking BHS just ask the third party app devs to code it for you.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    How does that contradict the 'newbies need a chance'? Obviously newbies aren't going to perform optimally, so they do need a chance (or a few).

    But yes, there are plenty of people who are bad and don't care, who want to be carried. People who want to improve do so even without a meter.

    "Everyone can figure out if they are performing at an optimal level or not" vs " Newbies just don't know and need help". If somebody is udnerperforming it could either be that they are new and just don't know they are underperforming or they are aware of it and just don't care to improve. Now, his statement makes the first part an impossible assumption as everyone is aware of how they are performing. In which case that gunner standing behind the tank, he's not clueless, he's doing it on purpose. Why should i gave a chance to anyone who's deliberately being bad?
    DeadX wrote: »
    lol "why are so many doing 1/10 the dps" well it's not because they don't have dps meters. point of fact you and the rest seem to keep forgetting is that DPS meters weren't around for tera at the start. what you say? was everyone doing only 1/10 of the damage? with TOUGHER BAMS AND BOSSES? why no they were NOT. blows that BS out of the water. care to try again?

    I saw the first dps meter around CBT time(maybe up to the first month of tera's western release). I don't know what you consider "the start" but I think that'd count. And back in the good old days, dps check fails were a lot more common since the dps meters were reserved for the select few who had access(or created their own). The rest of the plebs had to guess who was the reason kaprima went berserk for the 5th time in a roll. It also mattered less since dungeons had 6h cooldowns so it's not like you had much to do the rest of the time anyway. But, yeah, considering I've seen plenty of dps check fails, I'll go ahead and say, yup, a lot of people were doing less than what they could've been doing and very few were aware of it.

    PS: At some point asking sorcs to swap to poundings became a thing because people believed sorcs don't crit enough to make a backcrit build work. As in, the chance of your backcrit sorc being kicked from a party that was failing a dps check was rather high(assuming you decided to stick to your build).
    And one of the biggest things back then was calling the TN endurance glyph "useless". The endurance decrease and chance to apply weren't worth it. But, yeah, back then everyone was pro and stuff. True story.
  • KarmaTheAlligatorKarmaTheAlligator ✭✭✭✭✭
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    How does that contradict the 'newbies need a chance'? Obviously newbies aren't going to perform optimally, so they do need a chance (or a few).

    But yes, there are plenty of people who are bad and don't care, who want to be carried. People who want to improve do so even without a meter.

    "Everyone can figure out if they are performing at an optimal level or not" vs " Newbies just don't know and need help". If somebody is udnerperforming it could either be that they are new and just don't know they are underperforming or they are aware of it and just don't care to improve. Now, his statement makes the first part an impossible assumption as everyone is aware of how they are performing. In which case that gunner standing behind the tank, he's not clueless, he's doing it on purpose. Why should i gave a chance to anyone who's deliberately being bad?

    I thought the argument was more for dungeons/boss mechanics ("newbies needing help"), and things they should know by end game, like positioning, rotation (maybe), crystals ("they should know what performs well"). Not impossible if you think of it that way. Dunno, maybe I'm wrong.

    But yes, I agree with kicking people deliberately being bad.
  • Lets not forget that without dps meters and receiving such a big feedback from community about every class performing differently, BHS would refuse to ever balance the classes. Without ppl being aware of the average dps and so on, BHS would still be in denial.

    TBH i've never met any parties harrassing players with dps meters. The point is you just have to find alike ppl to stick to and play with, like in every other game/sport.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    How does that contradict the 'newbies need a chance'? Obviously newbies aren't going to perform optimally, so they do need a chance (or a few).

    But yes, there are plenty of people who are bad and don't care, who want to be carried. People who want to improve do so even without a meter.

    "Everyone can figure out if they are performing at an optimal level or not" vs " Newbies just don't know and need help". If somebody is udnerperforming it could either be that they are new and just don't know they are underperforming or they are aware of it and just don't care to improve. Now, his statement makes the first part an impossible assumption as everyone is aware of how they are performing. In which case that gunner standing behind the tank, he's not clueless, he's doing it on purpose. Why should i gave a chance to anyone who's deliberately being bad?

    I thought the argument was more for dungeons/boss mechanics ("newbies needing help"), and things they should know by end game, like positioning, rotation (maybe), crystals ("they should know what performs well"). Not impossible if you think of it that way. Dunno, maybe I'm wrong.

    But yes, I agree with kicking people deliberately being bad.

    I think the part missing here is: Most good players have, at some point or another, tried to offer help. Then we got yelled at. "You mean elitist, I play for fun, this is how I like it, it's my playstyle"(and I don't mean as a response to "you beeping noob, gitgud" but to genuine, polite attempts to teach somebody like "hey, you should try this, it'll really improve your survival/dps/support). As a result, a number of people don't want to make the first step. Which means the newbie has to be aware that they are underperforming in order to seek help. Let's say Johnny is a gunner. he's new to the game, he thinks he's doing fine, not dying all that much. Johnny doesn't ask for help. now, Johnny gets a dps meter and sees that he's doing 100k/sec while Peter, who's also a gunner, is doing 1mil/sec. That should prompt Johnny to wonder what he's doing wrong and ask Peter for advice. If Johnny had remained oblivious to the vast difference between his performance and Peter's, he'd eventually find himself in a party that insults and kicks him for "no apparent reason"(at least to him). That's the point I'm driving at.
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    @DeadX
    Seeing how you disapprove of DPS meters so badly, can you help solve the following problems without using DPS meters please?

    1) How would you know if someone was "doing only 1/10 of the damage" or not? Tera didn't have any DPS meters back then right? So how are you so sure that everyone was playing at their best potential? Could it not be possible that bosses in dungeons back then had so little HP that most players could clear it without playing better? Keep in mind I'm only theorising here, but since you're the one trying to make a point, you have to give substantial proof, not me.

    2) Find out any person in your party that is not pulling their own weight, and CONVINCE them that they need to improve, be it changing crystals or gear rolls.
    Doesn't matter if you can carry them through the dungeon with your op +15 Behemoth if you have it. Ignoring them would just make you as mean as the players using DPS meters calling them out, since it doesn't help them improve at all. It's an MMO right? We're supposed to be co-operating and helping each other, are we not? I edited this post to add in a condition of convincing these players, since I highly doubt some random tom/[filtered]/harry would listen to someone who doesn't have solid evidence.

    3) Prove that you can concentrate on DPSing a boss to the best potential of your class while "WATCH(ing) a player and know whether they know their class or not". I'm adding the condition of "best potential" since it would be hypocritical to criticise someone about doing bad rotations, while doing suboptimal rotations yourself. The burden of proof is on you, since not everyone can multitask like what you're asking for here.



    Now onto counterarguments.
    DeadX wrote: »
    they do NOTHING but display how much damage you did or did not do, no tips, no guides, nothing else. prove me wrong? oh wait...you can't.

    And how does displaying how much damage you do equate to doing nothing? It's precisely because no tools exist to give us tips/guides on what we're doing right or wrong that we resort to using primitive data to better ourselves. I also have this question for you: Can you make a better tool? If not, seriously stfu, or show some proof that you can learn to play better without a tool, since you're so opposed to having the only tool we have to teach us something. Otherwise, what you're saying is just total BS.
    DeadX wrote: »
    for both of you, show me where a dps meter will tell you howto optimize output against a variety of bosses or bams eh? teach you how to move, teach you how to apply skills at opportune moments to maximize output? why they DON'T.
    DeadX wrote: »
    you still cannot show me where they teach you a [filtered] THING. because they DON'T. and you'd be a liar claiming that they do. they don't teach you positioning, they don't teach you timing, they don't teach you skill rotations or crystal/gear setups.

    Obviously DPS meters don't teach you such things. It's supposed to let you know if you're doing good damage or not, and it's called a "DPS meter" for god's sake. Positioning? Timing? You learn these through experience. Crystal/gear setups? You learn these through reading item tooltips.
    OR
    You can learn them by looking at guides, which make use of the very DPS meters you hate so much to come up with concrete numbers (aka facts) to justify choices, instead of theories used back in the day. There's a very big difference between a fact and a theory, just so you know. If players back then didn't have DPS meters, then their guides would've been based on theories, not facts.

    Secondly, just because something doesn't teach YOU anything, does not immediately mean it teaches nothing to everyone else. What if I told you that reading books teaches nothing since it's just lots of paper with a lot of words? Doesn't make sense, does it?
  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    actually reading books teach nothing if you can't absorb it lol, but that is besides the point.

    But here is the thing, you can only learn something if you can actually read it. Just like books of foreign languages being gibberish to the unknown, if a person don't know how to read a dps meter, they won't understand how to better themselves. And viceversa.

    I have been on both camps before: the 10k/s scrublord camp and "the good-enough-to-be-accepted-into-raids" (but not top 1% level) camp.

    Anyways, the whole reason why DPS meters were rife in other MMOs is that they want to know how to minmax their rotations. The ones that actually fulfill their job doesn't' only give DPS, but also statistics on which skill does more damage, how many times it is used and average damage per hit. With that concept in mind many other games follow the trend of statistics raw than raw dps values.

    Given @TWMagimay 's analogy, if the meter shows enough information, he has one extra guide to turn to: the statistics page, where he can compare which skill gives a higher contribution to the battle. Coupled with advice from the better player (rotations, glyphs and the like), the "Johnny" player will then practice to improve in his gameplay. This strategy of improving is way better than just giving raw guides with no indicators to turn to.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    aeee98 wrote: »
    Given @TWMagimay 's analogy, if the meter shows enough information, he has one extra guide to turn to: the statistics page, where he can compare which skill gives a higher contribution to the battle. Coupled with advice from the better player (rotations, glyphs and the like), the "Johnny" player will then practice to improve in his gameplay. This strategy of improving is way better than just giving raw guides with no indicators to turn to.

    Another aspect would be more precise questions. Instead of asking "what I am doing wrong?" the question can be "why do you do more damage with this skill?"(and then you learn about some powerlink glyph, for example). Asking general questions is more likely to get you a "I ain't got time to teach you all the things" but a specific question will almost always get you a proper answer. Plus, by having a "leaderboard" of sorts you know who to ask. Even people you'd normally never meet could be willing to answer your question and then you are on their radar. Next thing you know, they need 1 more dps for their raid and remember that one guy who was eager to learn. Having the opportunity to not only find out you need help but also figure out who to ask for it is priceless.
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    @aeee98
    With regards to "you can only learning something if you can actually read it", I believe most players here have gone to school and learnt what 1m/s means, or what percentages/averages mean. Otherwise, they should be focusing more on their studies rather than concern themselves with DPS meters. I also believe that the layout is designed well enough, so players should be able to understand it fairly easily.

    Next, i don't know if people know about this yet, but the DPS meter we're discussing about does give a statistics page. It tells you how much damage you do, even in percentages, on all your skills, and much, much more useful information.

    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.
  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    Haloist wrote: »
    @aeee98
    With regards to "you can only learning something if you can actually read it", I believe most players here have gone to school and learnt what 1m/s means, or what percentages/averages mean. Otherwise, they should be focusing more on their studies rather than concern themselves with DPS meters. I also believe that the layout is designed well enough, so players should be able to understand it fairly easily.

    Next, i don't know if people know about this yet, but the DPS meter we're discussing about does give a statistics page. It tells you how much damage you do, even in percentages, on all your skills, and much, much more useful information.

    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.

    You kinda didn't understand what I mean.

    Not everyone comes from a background where they are half-good at math. And I know about the stats page in said meter you are talking about (actually most of these resources have this already). Sure there can be a statistics page but they won't know which is better prioritised from just looking at the said number. No matter how detailed the statistics can be, a clueless player will continue to be clueless. That is a problem with all implementations of the DPS meter, but it isn't the meter's fault to begin with.

    The only con that I can think of is that it could show a vulnerability of the game code, and could induce potential hacking. The blanket ban on these resources basically is just to deter people from potentially hacking the game and ruining the fun for legitimate players (even if it means taking away the safest 3rd party program). It isn't just the bullying cases (which while contribute to this problem isn't a huge factor at all)
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    @aeee98
    You must also understand where I'm coming from when making that post. I'm assuming anyone who can play a game like TERA has a certain level of intelligence. If someone doesn't even know 2>1 or 10>9 or anything similar, then I would automatically exclude him from my argument since it would make no sense if I didn't. However, if someone is bad at math but not THAT bad, they can get help from their friends/guildies, or the [filtered] internet (google is your friend). Don't understand statistics page? Do the same.

    And if the main downside is the vulnerability of the game code, then perhaps people should start putting more focus on it, instead of beating about the bush and hating DPS meters for the wrong reasons. It ends up wasting many people's time.
  • MinazukiMinazuki ✭✭✭
    Haloist wrote: »
    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.

    The reason that why you cannot understand why some players are giving so much hate to DPS meter is cause you just haven't experience what they experienced.

    Progression raid/run
    40m/25m raid
    There 2 kinds of raider. One is for the party, one is for themselves.
    Someone lower their DPS to pick up boss fight mechanics that need to take care of.
    Someone ignore the mechanics just to do more DPS, even taken the buff that suppose tank only to build more aggro/DPS, so it end up over aggro and boss turned 1 AOE wipe the raid.
    There more but I lazy to type it.

    Why you guy only see the bad side of DPS meter?
    THEN
    Why you guy only see the good side of DPS meter?
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