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Ingame DPS meeter ?

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Comments

  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    DeadX wrote: »

    thanks for proving my point...SEVERAL TIMES. it's ALL up to the player thinking. movement, gear, crystals, rotations...lol. meter provides nothing for any of that.

    further, did you know that more people want guides more than meters in this game? or guidance? since a meter can't help you with what you're doing wrong? rofl. want to try again? help me further prove my point that a meter is useless in this game? that EVERYTHING comes down to the player learning how to play their character? and that by your own argument...a dps meter doesn't help that AT ALL. this is what happens when you try to rationalize something you want without any actual basis in reality to back it up. it's a totally useless piece of software for this game except for elitests and braggarts.

    it can't tell you how to play better, a fact YOU yourself pointed out...lol. so...better to just learn how to play in the first place than installing a piece of software that does NOTHING to help you get better.

    Thanks for not answering my question. I answered every single one of yours and yet you couldn't answer a simple "how do you know you need to improve if you don't know you are doing a bad job". *slow clap*
  • MagichanMagichan ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how comparing DPS is fundementally different than inspecting your gear :\

    I can kick someone for being undergeared or with terrible rolls/crystals, but not for what he does with that gear?
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    "DPS meter doesn't show you what you're doing wrong, only that you did wrong"

    When on a race, you'll only have a clock to check your times. Your car's instruments will also not tell you if you're doing anything wrong other than over revving or logging the engine. That could very well be ported over to TERA as an analogy to your HP bar, edge bars, whatever.
    The clock won't show you what you did wrong, just showed that you can improve. Same with DPS meter. Of corse it doesn't guide you trough your hand. It's a racer's clock not his technique books.

    "how can you use it to learn how to do better?"

    3 options:

    1 - Trial and error. Do it, change, do it again and compare.
    2 - Ask around.
    3 - Observation. Do it, compare. See what better ones do, try to imitate. Compare. Rinse and repeat.

    "It can be used to bully people"

    Heck yeah it can. Inspect can. Death count can. Positioning can. Your char's appearance can.
    The game's community is as good as the people on it.

    DPS meter is just like any other tool. You can use a hammer to many things included killing people, that doesn't classify it as a weapon. It's not a cheating device to make your DPS higher, just showing it.


    The whole matter about carrying people or not is sensitive, and a line drawn on water: how far is it considered carrying, how can you prove that the player is not trying his all and is deliberately trolling? There are many obvious cases. Cases where people really will move into the red areas to make the healer work and so on. People who you tell the mechanics and they get all pissy cause "you don't tell me what to do! I'm trying it here don't be elitist!" Yes, there are cases like that. But let's also not just side with the ones that "carry" it, there are many players out there that will indeed b!tch about not doing the run in the low minutes, players that will just wave their dang in your face cause they do more DPS.

    And in this aspect, I think these players should just get isolated into their elite bubble, where they're safe from "carrying" people, and can just fight against the ones doing 10% less than they do and call them trash, or try to find excuses when they're surpassed. In this aspect, the meter is doing no harm, in fact just isolating the ones that wanted to isolate themselves from others anyway. Let them be there and not bother the ones that are trying to perform better.

    This also brings up the ping issue: I do believe that a player doing stuff right, getting bellow optimal damage by technical reasons like ping taxing shouldn't get axed like that out of raids and the likes just because he can't be on the top of the top - sure like I said, the ones that are the top of the top elitists that don't care about others can isolate themselves there, but there should be a limit to how far you'll complain about it.


    The community has to learn how to use them well. Or just get reported.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Haloist wrote: »
    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.

    So many times I have said that I am not against the dps meter for personal improvement use but if many players in-game are using those tools to make their harrassment on others and making asumptions, the heck, once I got into an argument becuase the first boss on SSHM I was got always targeted and thus my damage was lower than others, but for he the dps meter was all about and I was a burden for the party. Pls don't be ridiculous, if you don't even know the mechs on a dungeon the dps meter will get the toxic behaviours from many ppl more even more toxic, becuase dps meter don't teach them that some bosses target players based on RNG.

    The players got a condition from EME to use the dps meters and was not to brag in chat, not harrass others using them, but many didn't care about that condition and those who spread the use of meters also don't care about that so, as you don't care about the condition EME give you then EME resort to take measures against it.

    Back to the first point, if you care for the dps meter to help you improve then why do not care for a change on it that don't allow to share it's numbers in-side the game?. If you care for your tool so much you will think on ways to get it doing the same job (help you to improve) while impeding to show its statistics inside the game, but that never has been done, right?

    At this point EME is not at fault in a warning they give long time ago because the players didn't care for the sole condition for the use of DPS meters.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Haloist wrote: »
    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.

    So many times I have said that I am not against the dps meter for personal improvement use but if many players in-game are using those tools to make their harrassment on others and making asumptions, the heck, once I got into an argument becuase the first boss on SSHM I was got always targeted and thus my damage was lower than others, but for he the dps meter was all about and I was a burden for the party. Pls don't be ridiculous, if you don't even know the mechs on a dungeon the dps meter will get the toxic behaviours from many ppl more even more toxic, becuase dps meter don't teach them that some bosses target players based on RNG.

    The players got a condition from EME to use the dps meters and was not to brag in chat, not harrass others using them, but many didn't care about that condition and those who spread the use of meters also don't care about that so, as you don't care about the condition EME give you then EME resort to take measures against it.

    Back to the first point, if you care for the dps meter to help you improve then why do not care for a change on it that don't allow to share it's numbers in-side the game?. If you care for your tool so much you will think on ways to get it doing the same job (help you to improve) while impeding to show its statistics inside the game, but that never has been done, right?

    At this point EME is not at fault in a warning they give long time ago because the players didn't care for the sole condition for the use of DPS meters.

    Part of improvement is comparing your results to those of other people. Also, if you think nobody will bully you without dps meter, you are in for a huge disappointment. It's usually the bad players who bully with it anyway so it's even more useful to shut them up.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Haloist wrote: »
    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.

    So many times I have said that I am not against the dps meter for personal improvement use but if many players in-game are using those tools to make their harrassment on others and making asumptions, the heck, once I got into an argument becuase the first boss on SSHM I was got always targeted and thus my damage was lower than others, but for he the dps meter was all about and I was a burden for the party. Pls don't be ridiculous, if you don't even know the mechs on a dungeon the dps meter will get the toxic behaviours from many ppl more even more toxic, becuase dps meter don't teach them that some bosses target players based on RNG.

    The players got a condition from EME to use the dps meters and was not to brag in chat, not harrass others using them, but many didn't care about that condition and those who spread the use of meters also don't care about that so, as you don't care about the condition EME give you then EME resort to take measures against it.

    Back to the first point, if you care for the dps meter to help you improve then why do not care for a change on it that don't allow to share it's numbers in-side the game?. If you care for your tool so much you will think on ways to get it doing the same job (help you to improve) while impeding to show its statistics inside the game, but that never has been done, right?

    At this point EME is not at fault in a warning they give long time ago because the players didn't care for the sole condition for the use of DPS meters.

    Part of improvement is comparing your results to those of other people. Also, if you think nobody will bully you without dps meter, you are in for a huge disappointment. It's usually the bad players who bully with it anyway so it's even more useful to shut them up.

    Oh, but you said dps meters teach you but the one using it didn't learn about the mechs from that boss because the dps meter and only cared about its data to decide in the first boss who was doing poorly, however didn't care to think that if a mele dps is target always or most of the times then his dps will go down.

    Then again you didn't care for me saying that I am not against it for personal use and you didn't care for the condition EME give you to use it but you defend it when many ppl aren't following that condition and that make it even more agraviating.

    If you care for the tool then you should show concern and look with the devs some ways for the tool not being used in the way EME forvid you to use it, but you are only "I don't care for what EME says and I don't care for those who have bad experience with ppl usin it the wrong way", with that stance from many of you that defend that tool then I will clearly stand to the side of the one who give you the oportunity to use it based on a condition rather to side with those who clearly don't care at all for that condition.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Haloist wrote: »
    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.

    So many times I have said that I am not against the dps meter for personal improvement use but if many players in-game are using those tools to make their harrassment on others and making asumptions, the heck, once I got into an argument becuase the first boss on SSHM I was got always targeted and thus my damage was lower than others, but for he the dps meter was all about and I was a burden for the party. Pls don't be ridiculous, if you don't even know the mechs on a dungeon the dps meter will get the toxic behaviours from many ppl more even more toxic, becuase dps meter don't teach them that some bosses target players based on RNG.

    The players got a condition from EME to use the dps meters and was not to brag in chat, not harrass others using them, but many didn't care about that condition and those who spread the use of meters also don't care about that so, as you don't care about the condition EME give you then EME resort to take measures against it.

    Back to the first point, if you care for the dps meter to help you improve then why do not care for a change on it that don't allow to share it's numbers in-side the game?. If you care for your tool so much you will think on ways to get it doing the same job (help you to improve) while impeding to show its statistics inside the game, but that never has been done, right?

    At this point EME is not at fault in a warning they give long time ago because the players didn't care for the sole condition for the use of DPS meters.

    Part of improvement is comparing your results to those of other people. Also, if you think nobody will bully you without dps meter, you are in for a huge disappointment. It's usually the bad players who bully with it anyway so it's even more useful to shut them up.

    Oh, but you said dps meters teach you but the one using it didn't learn about the mechs from that boss because the dps meter and only cared about its data to decide in the first boss who was doing poorly, however didn't care to think that if a mele dps is target always or most of the times then his dps will go down.

    Then again you didn't care for me saying that I am not against it for personal use and you didn't care for the condition EME give you to use it but you defend it when many ppl aren't following that condition and that make it even more agraviating.

    If you care for the tool then you should show concern and look with the devs some ways for the tool not being used in the way EME forvid you to use it, but you are only "I don't care for what EME says and I don't care for those who have bad experience with ppl usin it the wrong way", with that stance from many of you that defend that tool then I will clearly stand to the side of the one who give you the oportunity to use it based on a condition rather to side with those who clearly don't care at all for that condition.

    That...made no sense at all.
  • I hope u guys do realize that some guilds use DPS meter to gauge new candidates and without it couldn't fairly/effectively accomplish that.
  • YamazukiYamazuki ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Haloist wrote: »
    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.

    So many times I have said that I am not against the dps meter for personal improvement use but if many players in-game are using those tools to make their harrassment on others and making asumptions, the heck, once I got into an argument becuase the first boss on SSHM I was got always targeted and thus my damage was lower than others, but for he the dps meter was all about and I was a burden for the party. Pls don't be ridiculous, if you don't even know the mechs on a dungeon the dps meter will get the toxic behaviours from many ppl more even more toxic, becuase dps meter don't teach them that some bosses target players based on RNG.

    The players got a condition from EME to use the dps meters and was not to brag in chat, not harrass others using them, but many didn't care about that condition and those who spread the use of meters also don't care about that so, as you don't care about the condition EME give you then EME resort to take measures against it.

    Back to the first point, if you care for the dps meter to help you improve then why do not care for a change on it that don't allow to share it's numbers in-side the game?. If you care for your tool so much you will think on ways to get it doing the same job (help you to improve) while impeding to show its statistics inside the game, but that never has been done, right?

    At this point EME is not at fault in a warning they give long time ago because the players didn't care for the sole condition for the use of DPS meters.

    Part of improvement is comparing your results to those of other people. Also, if you think nobody will bully you without dps meter, you are in for a huge disappointment. It's usually the bad players who bully with it anyway so it's even more useful to shut them up.

    Oh, but you said dps meters teach you but the one using it didn't learn about the mechs from that boss because the dps meter and only cared about its data to decide in the first boss who was doing poorly, however didn't care to think that if a mele dps is target always or most of the times then his dps will go down.

    Then again you didn't care for me saying that I am not against it for personal use and you didn't care for the condition EME give you to use it but you defend it when many ppl aren't following that condition and that make it even more agraviating.

    If you care for the tool then you should show concern and look with the devs some ways for the tool not being used in the way EME forvid you to use it, but you are only "I don't care for what EME says and I don't care for those who have bad experience with ppl usin it the wrong way", with that stance from many of you that defend that tool then I will clearly stand to the side of the one who give you the oportunity to use it based on a condition rather to side with those who clearly don't care at all for that condition.

    That...made no sense at all.

    -A meter can only be used for improvement when the dungeon mechanics aren't what's keeping the dps down. As having a better rotation is pointless when the mechanics kill you.

    -He isn't against meters for personal use

    -Neither of you cared that meters were acceptable if it wasn't abused, and they're being abused

    Anyways, justifying meters to be used for comparisons makes no sense (they should never be used that way), and I already see this mistake being made. A dps can only be compared in the context of the group, you can't compare the dps of two people from two different groups. The environment of the run or the experience of the rest of the group and not the individual impacts dps. No matter how good you are as an individual if your healers aren't debuffing, using contagion+hurricane, not using auras or buffing then your dps by default is going to be lower than a person in a group who had high up times for everything. If your group is dying then by default you take a dps loss regardless of how you as an individual performed especially for boss fights like HM Lach with the debuff mechanic killing you at two stacks, or the knock back mechanic where you're forced to be cleanse, or the plague mechanic where you don't get to dps for a minute.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    I hope u guys do realize that some guilds use DPS meter to gauge new candidates and without it couldn't fairly/effectively accomplish that.

    I think that every guild need to have some freedom to select their members.

    I said that I am not against DPS meters for personal improvement use and Guilds I think are a group of people with the same goals in mind. IF their goals are not meant to bring harm then is ok.


    But what I am agaisnt how this tool has lost his purpose for many people not using it for self improving but rather to give conclusions on something that is not even relevant. As I said before there are some bosses that will screw with your dps becuase their target you random and you could be targeted every single time in that fight and losing lots of dps (ie. first boss on SS and spider from RM) and several people still use the dps meter as a way to harass the dps class that got targeted, yeah right, those dps statistics won't show any of that so that is a toxic behaviour and the toxic behaviour is what must be punished. That is why EME told before to not be braggin about it and keep quiet if you use it, but many players won't follow an advice from EME to use something that is already forviden in the rules and now they are crying to every single post that are mean to their point of view.

    Pls, there are people against its use, there are people that are in favor and there are people that don't care if you use it or not while you keep it to your self, now tell me what is the best way of action for those who want to use it? obviously to use it with discretion, something that has not been acomplished, right?
  • MinazukiMinazuki ✭✭✭
    ...
    Haloist wrote: »
    Minazuki wrote: »
    Haloist wrote: »
    This is why I cannot understand why some players are giving so much unjustified hate to DPS meters. I know that there have been players getting bullied with DPS meters (exact numbers though, no one knows, which makes it even more unconvincing), but having 1 downside doesn't immediately make a tool bad altogether.

    The reason that why you cannot understand why some players are giving so much hate to DPS meter is cause you just haven't experience what they experienced.

    Progression raid/run
    40m/25m raid
    There 2 kinds of raider. One is for the party, one is for themselves.
    Someone lower their DPS to pick up boss fight mechanics that need to take care of.
    Someone ignore the mechanics just to do more DPS, even taken the buff that suppose tank only to build more aggro/DPS, so it end up over aggro and boss turned 1 AOE wipe the raid.
    There more but I lazy to type it.

    Why you guy only see the bad side of DPS meter?
    THEN
    Why you guy only see the good side of DPS meter?

    Problem with your scenario is that you have in no way shown how having the DPS meter resulted in anything bad.
    Sure, the guys with the large e-peen can ignore adds etc., but in such a large raid, would a sane person really care about how much damage 1/2 individuals are doing?
    Moreover, I would expect that in such large raids, boss mechanics would have been sorted out before the raid started, like who to do what and when, so again, DPS meter shouldn't concern anyone in this regard.
    Also, if the raid failed due to someone messing up non-"dps check" mechanics leading to an AOE wipe, are you sure the raid would be more concerned about dps than finding out what went wrong? Again, illogical counterargument.
    Not to mention, TERA only has 1 such large scale raid, which is HH, and it's mostly for top-geared/skilled players, so I shouldn't be reasonably expected to have experienced what other players have experienced from other games. Context is key, my friend.

    So to make it clear, I'm speaking in terms of 5-10 man dungeons, and any number more than that is considered a large scale raid like HH, which have their own mechanics that have mostly nothing to do with dps (aside from dps checks).
    I do mostly dungeons in TERA, very few pvp, and not done any HH, but I can still assure you that I understand that dps drops when dps stop hitting the boss to do boss mechanics. It is very obvious since if you're a dps, you would be together with the other dps hitting the boss from behind. Therefore, I would understand how some players feel when they see other dps skipping boss mechanics to do more damage, just not in the large scale raid sense like you mentioned. However, bringing this up is irrelevant since I have stated before that we do not know how many people have been bullied because they do slightly worse dps just because they went to do boss mechanics. I would assume it's a small handful since I've experienced none myself, so all the more it's insignificant to my argument.

    Right, I don't have a way to show you how crazy that there was a guy form a top guild on other MMORPG before wipe a raid just cause he would like to do a little more DPS, since I don't do live steam or record game play at all.

    Like I said there two kinds of raiders, one would pick up mechanics for party and one for themselves. Why I use PICK UP? Mechanics assigned to players at start yet there often accident happen that assigned players die. Then there people pick up and there people just simple ignore and enjoying the big number on their screen and DPS meter.

    The one that I said lead to boss turn and aoe wipe raid is cause someone care about his damn DPS and taken buff that suppose tank needed to have. Just cause he want to looks more better on the raid DPS meter!!!

    All I did was share some experience... and it become counterargument?

    HH form the guides I saw... all you need is 30 people know the strategy follow it and you win, also with a computer that with decent fps. Top geared/skilled? You kidding right?
    Tera raid is joke... not kidding

    You don't understand why other hate DPS so other give you their experience, even it form other game yet what cause it happen is DPS meter and if it can happen on other game, it could happen on TERA. cause player base is the same.

    Then here the experience I had in Tera back in 2-3 years ago on SF. It was a bad run that pug tank, warrior refuse to tank and just DPS. The outcome is the one new player in group with idonel gear get bully by DPS meter and left.
    You haven't seem it happen doesn't mean it not happen.

    Even DPS was need to do mechanics back in MC queen fight. DPS rotation? care on the meter?
    Tera now just really lacking on boss fight mechanics.

    At the end do I care if there DPS meter or not. I don't care.
    With pug I just do what I can.
    End game dungeon I would make my own static if I want to run it.

    There enough ways to bully people, you want more?

    Sorry for my bad engrish
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    Minazuki wrote: »
    Like I said there two kinds of raiders, one would pick up mechanics for party and one for themselves. Why I use PICK UP? Mechanics assigned to players at start yet there often accident happen that assigned players die. Then there people pick up and there people just simple ignore and enjoying the big number on their screen and DPS meter.
    Minazuki wrote: »
    The one that I said lead to boss turn and aoe wipe raid is cause someone care about his [filtered] DPS and taken buff that suppose tank needed to have. Just cause he want to looks more better on the raid DPS meter!!!

    You do know that you're talking about a different form of DPS meter usage here right? What I'm arguing against is using the DPS meter to bully people. like calling them out for low DPS, which is different from this. In this scenario you're referring to, these players are skipping mechanics to boost their DPS, and for what? If the raid is going to wipe due to them not "picking up" and skipping mechanics or taking the tank's buffs since they decided to continue DPSing, who in the world in their right minds would give a [filtered] about their DPS on the DPS meter? AND, as stated by me in the quote you're referring to, these guys would've been kicked from the raid if they indeed were stupid enough to boast about their DPS after the wipe, therefore I don't see anyone getting bullied by the DPS meter results, which in turn makes stating your experience irrelevant in the context of my argument.
    Minazuki wrote: »
    All I did was share some experience... and it become counterargument?

    Not related to discussion, but please realise that if your experience did indeed prove that I knew nothing about what I was talking about, then it would invalidate my argument. So yes, it became a counterargument, even if you did not intend it to be.
    Minazuki wrote: »
    HH form the guides I saw... all you need is 30 people know the strategy follow it and you win, also with a computer that with decent fps. Top geared/skilled? You kidding right?
    Tera raid is joke... not kidding

    Then are you sure without top-gear, you can clear the DPS checks in the raid? Without being skilled in your class, can you clear DPS checks?
    Minazuki wrote: »
    Then here the experience I had in Tera back in 2-3 years ago on SF. It was a bad run that pug tank, warrior refuse to tank and just DPS. The outcome is the one new player in group with idonel gear get bully by DPS meter and left.
    You haven't seem it happen doesn't mean it not happen.

    That's not the point I was making. I'm saying that since after playing for 1-2 years, I've rarely seen any cases of players getting bullied with DPS meters, therefore I'm questioning those people who claim that it is a widespread issue, when they are unable to give solid evidence as to how many players are being bullied with the DPS meter.
    Indeed, you gave an experience of someone getting bullied with DPS meter, but how am I to know if it was a legit case and not just an example made out of thin air? Not questioning your integrity here, but I'm just trying to let you see things from my perspective.
    If it was really such a widespread issue, then I have to reasonably assume that many players would've taken screenshots of such things happening, and made a big fuss out of it, but until now, I have yet to see any. You can't just argue that many players are getting bullied without showing that there are indeed many players getting bullied.
  • msoltysplmsoltyspl ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Note that currently:

    - meters (developed by na/eu folks) are officially allowed in KR
    - Nexon did unban people for using them (and apologized)
    - other 3rd party tools are implicitly allowed unless proven malicious
    - ToS was rewritten together with players

    (source: Loriri)

    While out third rate publisher wants to ban people for using same meters. The irony.

    Maybe EME should get some [filtered] clue and learn about business from Nexon KR (FWIW they are doing far better job than Hangame ever managed to).
  • YitharYithar ✭✭✭
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Your other points are sound, but that last one displays a colossal problem within the community.

    However, that statement makes the dichotomy both for and against DPS meters make so much more sense. In fact, I'm seeing a pattern...

    Wanting to finish a dungeon is a colossal problem within the community? In picture I showed, every single DPS (all 8 of them) had lower DPS than me, but not only that, they couldn't even perform a simple mechanic which is to kill adds. We ended up abandoning the raid. I've carried lots of low DPS players through that raid, but I had never said a single thing as long as we could complete the dungeon.

    Also, you are sort of wasting other people's time if you're just pressing random keys instead of doing a proper rotation. But I sort of expect that when I queue for IMS, sadly.
  • ObsObs ✭✭✭
    DeadX wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    tell me how it tells you how to position your character?

    Your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check what they are doing differently -> You find out about positioning.
    tell me how it tells you what rotations to use?

    Your dps is lower than that of other players -> You compare the skills you used to the skills they used -> You notice a difference -> You ask them how come -> You learn a better rotation
    what crystals?

    Your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check their gear -> You notice different crystals -> (You ask why) -> You learn about crystals.
    what timings?

    Define timings?
    what gear rolls?

    You notice your dps is lower than that of other people -> You check their gear -> You see they have different rolls -> You learn about gear rolls.
    what gear in general?

    If you need help to figure out what gear to use in a game this straight-forward, you are beyond help.
    you can't because it doesn't.

    I just did. now you answer me this: How do you learn all those things if you have no idea that you are udnerperforming? If you are sitting there, with the crystals you got from the game/saw on the welcome screen, with your recommended glyph set-up, with your random compilation of yellow stat rolls, breaking your spacebar with the recommended chains, standing in that spot that doesn't seem to get any red circles...how do you know you are doing something wrong when you are doing exactly what the game tells you to do?
    lol sorc backcrit build? any build based on backcrits was viable...dunno what build forums you were looking at...the only NON backcrit build was for primarily SOLO players. as to your 'less damage' BS...which is what it is, you played with some lousy players then. and a DPS meter wouldn't have helped them at ALL...since you know it doesn't do a [filtered] thing but show damage. see above. so kindly STOP trying to claim it can help, players learning the class, learning builds or copying them, learning rotations and playing classes they're comfortable with. this game is more of a /fighterbrawler than a classic style mmo...care to argue that? as there is no point in using dps meters in fighters, there's no point in using one in tera.

    except to brag.

    I wasn't looking at forums, I was looking inside the game. And, yeah, there were a lot of lousy players with opinions back then. Not sure why contradicting your own argument(that before dps meters were wide-spread everyone was superpro) helps your case, but, hey, who am I to question your decisions.
    Did you know that a lot of people are too lazy to look up guides on the internet? A dps meter is an in-your-face " you are doing it wrong" statement that can at least tell those people they need to go and look for those guides, learn those things. But you'd rather they never figure out that they are actually bad, huh. and that's the point you are missing. You don't need a dps meter to tell you how you are doing. Great, neither do I. But a lot of people do need it. If they didn't, we wouldn't be seeing so many people with all the wrong things. Unless your argument is that people who do 100k/sec in SS NM and LK Nm are aware they are playing badly but do so by choice and not because they simply don't know any better. If that's the case, I'll gladly take that free-kicks card you are offering and presume there are no unknowingly bad players and everyone who's bad is just a troll.

    PS: Is your next argument going to be "But dps meter doesn't make me coffee in the morning so it's useless"?

    thanks for proving my point...SEVERAL TIMES. it's ALL up to the player thinking. movement, gear, crystals, rotations...lol. meter provides nothing for any of that.

    further, did you know that more people want guides more than meters in this game? or guidance? since a meter can't help you with what you're doing wrong? rofl. want to try again? help me further prove my point that a meter is useless in this game? that EVERYTHING comes down to the player learning how to play their character? and that by your own argument...a dps meter doesn't help that AT ALL. this is what happens when you try to rationalize something you want without any actual basis in reality to back it up. it's a totally useless piece of software for this game except for elitests and braggarts.

    it can't tell you how to play better, a fact YOU yourself pointed out...lol. so...better to just learn how to play in the first place than installing a piece of software that does NOTHING to help you get better.

    How do you think people write their guides?
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