The 3rd Party Thread

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  • CeciellaCeciella ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    @Ginjitsu

    Please take your time and read through the entire thread again.

    You want to be spoonfed and absolutely refuse to read and watch the videos that have been posted like the person who posted the insane difference in rapid fire given just a little bit of additional ping between the player and the server. If you just read the thread you can educate yourself on the issues and form an opinion from accurate facts. There are many arguments in this thread that explain things better than I can, and there's a certain player who has voiced their complaints as a banned developer and the post was subsequently locked and removed without a response.

    Rapid Fire, Burst Fire, Burning Breath, and other skills are intended to be used at low ping because of the way they function and the fact that it is a Korean developer making a game for a Korean audience. Something like a player regularly having 80-120 ping isn't thought of because the game is simply designed for a different audience due to the physical size of their nation and incredible internet connection. When issues like this arise it is because the expectations and reality differ. The skills SHOULD function in a certain way, but they absolutely do not. This has been a known issue for many years.

    However the issue is so much bigger than that in regards to third party things. DPS meters are used by a majority of the endgame community to improve themselves - not harass other players (although that does undeniably happen because there are always going to be [filtered] people in any community). Many top streamers up until this announcement streamed with a DPS meter on. Should they have been banned? Is it an unfair advantage that someone who's colorblind could theoretically see things properly given a third party program since there are absolutely no options for this ingame? What about someone else who gets motion sickness gets a significantly better experience from altering the FOV? Even something as simple as the removing the censorship EME has built into the game for certain costumes is something that they have said can technically be seen as a bannable offense if they know it is going on. Like if someone streams with any of these things could it reasonably result in a ban?

    It's almost unbelievable how many people think even simple optimization fixes are cheating and should result in a ban. If you think that this is trying to justify cheating or that many, many people that are concerned in this thread are simply filthy cheaters who don't want to play the game and just get a reward then please take the time and read through all of the opinions posted in this thread that word things better than I can.
  • ObsObs ✭✭✭
    Aryix wrote: »
    The only valid arguments related to ping issues on an NA server-based game are those from people that are native to NA. Everyone out of this comfort zone is aware beforehand that they will suffer ping issues. It is not a valid excuse to say "I don't live in the US, please take consideration." simply because you are consuming a product/using a service that does not cater to you. That does not give anyone any reason to break an agreement they made when they signed up to use said service. "It's leveling the playing field," is a lie tho, because not even those that live on the US play at 0 ms. You're not leveling the playing field, you are just getting an advantage for yourself because you are butthurt that other players that CASUALLY live closer to the server and pay more for their internet speed have a better ping than you do. The players were just fine before regardless of the issues.

    If you don't like the lag and delay and issues on NA Tera, play on a region closer to your country, I assure you that you will get better ping without the need of 3rd party add-ons. NA Tera isn't the only server in the world. You can even play KTera, they have talents and more goodies afaik, and they get content first hand.

    Grow up and stop feeling entitled to being pardoned for a ToS infringement just because you invested time, effort, and money. No one told you to do that, and you were aware you might get banned for it.

    But people in California have over 100 ping.
  • LegolamLegolam ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017


    You can cry all day about ping and try to justify, but in the end - 3rd party still wrong and illegal. BTW @Daight90 A dev was selling for real money, not just gold / RMT. Exploiting ways that directly interferes with EME's ability to make money. Yeah, not so pretty and innocent is it now. You all need to grow up and move on.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aryix wrote: »
    [...]
    If you don't like the lag and delay and issues on NA Tera, play on a region closer to your country, I assure you that you will get better ping without the need of 3rd party add-ons. NA Tera isn't the only server in the world. You can even play KTera, they have talents and more goodies afaik, and they get content first hand.

    Grow up and stop feeling entitled to being pardoned for a ToS infringement just because you invested time, effort, and money. No one told you to do that, and you were aware you might get banned for it.

    I'm gonna say that Brazil doesn't have much difference in ping to ANY of the regions. Not to mention Japan for example (dunno South Korean TERA) is region locked. So yes I also can't play unless I do trough a VPN. Not to mention language barriers, as you can see I'm no idiot using English albeit it's not perfect, but even tho I may know Japanese somehow more or less, I have no friggen idea on Korean. I can't decipher a single hangul character. TERA NA has been for me my "home" since 2014, and yes, I knew since beginning that the servers in the US wouldn't be perfect for me.

    Whoever it does not make the ping problem irrelevant for me, as it doesn't for many Brazilian or any South American, or even Europeans. Heck even Canadians are likely to have ping issues and they're even entitled for the Enmasse prizes like the figures and such.
    These are all consumers for their service. The company should focus on providing a good service so they reach out to more consumers isn't it?

    I'm not defending injector users here or ToS violators, I'm bringing up the fact that you can NOT ignore people outside US cause "They all agreed the ToS and should know they're screwed ping wise".
  • Or at least compile a list of known harmless applications and whitelist them? I'm red/green colorblind so I used to use a modification in order to change the game's colors to accomodate my vision, so I could see AoE circles a bit easier since I like to main a tank. Of course I uninstalled it once I read that EME was cracking down on the use of such things, however I really don't think users that use modifications that are clearly not harmful should be treated the same as people who are actually hacking. Of course that's personal bias and I do completely understand that EME has every right to run the game as their ToS states in order to enforce it, I just think it's overall more harm to the community than good considering a large chunk of the community does end up using client modification in order to improve the game's performance or, like me, to accomodate a handicap.

    And yes, I do understand that there are means to manage color settings within the monitor to help with deuteranopia, however I'm not the only one that uses this computer, and constantly changing these settings every time I use this PC became a bother so I looked into other means.
  • NeroZaph wrote: »
    you want players stop using those programs, then put pressure on BHS to fix the game and optimize, since we only get, "investigating" as an answer.

    The tail doesn't wag the dog.
  • TewiiTewii ✭✭✭
    Daight90 wrote: »
    And since that program is an open source program, other people who knows coding, could use it for exploit,
    the famous one is the one which is related to ruinous manor, where others can go pass the gate after first boss, and effectively skipping first boss.
    Effectively moving this program from grey zone into black zone.

    I can agree with most things in your post here but this part here implicates that the tool used to measure and analyze a fight's contents was the causation for the RMHM exploit, when it wasn't. As a matter of fact, RMHM could have been exploited without the use of any of the major three third party programs under controversy right now.
    Just wanted to point that out.
  • @ZeRoHouR95
    You are welcome. :>

    @Legolam
    Well, I know about that, I even know which Dev sells it for real money now, but from what I see, he only sells it for real money after he got banned.
    I don't deny that it is wrong of him to make that, I don't support it either. I am not even trying to hide it either, if I am, I wouldn't mention about him selling it for gold.

    I even know how much he is charging in terms of real money, but then, he IS the only one selling the 'main and important' program for money, the other 2 devs did not.

    I pity Dev P, although what he did is wrong, he really did increase the QoL(Quality of Life) of other players not living close to Chicago.
  • AryixAryix ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    ElinLove wrote: »
    Aryix wrote: »
    [...]
    If you don't like the lag and delay and issues on NA Tera, play on a region closer to your country, I assure you that you will get better ping without the need of 3rd party add-ons. NA Tera isn't the only server in the world. You can even play KTera, they have talents and more goodies afaik, and they get content first hand.

    Grow up and stop feeling entitled to being pardoned for a ToS infringement just because you invested time, effort, and money. No one told you to do that, and you were aware you might get banned for it.

    I'm gonna say that Brazil doesn't have much difference in ping to ANY of the regions. Not to mention Japan for example (dunno South Korean TERA) is region locked. So yes I also can't play unless I do trough a VPN. Not to mention language barriers, as you can see I'm no idiot using English albeit it's not perfect, but even tho I may know Japanese somehow more or less, I have no friggen idea on Korean. I can't decipher a single hangul character. TERA NA has been for me my "home" since 2014, and yes, I knew since beginning that the servers in the US wouldn't be perfect for me.

    Whoever it does not make the ping problem irrelevant for me, as it doesn't for many Brazilian or any South American, or even Europeans. Heck even Canadians are likely to have ping issues and they're even entitled for the Enmasse prizes like the figures and such.
    These are all consumers for their service. The company should focus on providing a good service so they reach out to more consumers isn't it?

    I'm not defending injector users here or ToS violators, I'm bringing up the fact that you can NOT ignore people outside US cause "They all agreed the ToS and should know they're screwed ping wise".

    Then you are in the wrong thread to comment, since this is after all a "3rd party" thread. If ToS violations isn't your way to solve ping issue, make a constructive thread asking for it, perhaps directly to BHS as well, or send in a ticket. I'm only directing my comments to the people defending and using the 3rd party mods. I'm not on NA, I don't have low ping, and I knew this from the beginning, but a lot of users from these 3rd party programs are now complaining, personally attacking GMs, and look forward to the demise of the NA version of this game simply because they didn't get a pat on the head for breaking an agreement they got into out of their own free will. Not only that, they are banning people from Tera communities simply because they do not agree with their views. They are actually behaving worse than EME, in their own terms honestly.

    It is not our job to take these issues into our hands and solve them, disregarding the legal repercussions that come with said actions and then complaining about it when the banhammer goes down.

    And not all players have innocent intentions with these things. Just one person can mess it all up for everyone, sadly.
  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinLove wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    .
    Ceciella wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    Tewii wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    On the 3rd party program side of things, there are players using programs that flip things around so that they're actually doing way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program.

    It has to be said that you're incorrect regarding this. The program I'm sure you know I'm speaking of doesn't alter damage values nor critrates, stats, etc etc...
    All it does is remove the delay inbetween the individual actions of the skill firing off for the client. Realistically, it brings those skills and those skills alone to work closer to how they should instead of being inherently broken.

    I did not know you were a developer from Bluehole, please do tell us why the delay was not removed in Tera instead of using a 3rd party tool?

    Or may be the delay was intentionally added to not overload the servers!

    I'm pretty sure EME and BHS are big boys who don't need you defending them, especially when your speculation is even less helpful than the original post. It's clear you're uneducated on the specifics of what you're taking about but don't let me stop you from shitting up every single thread involved while people just want honest straightforward answers about .ini tweaks, optimization and other things that are not the third party tools.

    Maybe educate people on the specifics instead of dismissing and insulting them ¬.¬?

    I'll take up the role then even tho I'm somehow a spectator:
    We've seen the b-utt allready let's not pretend we don't know what's under that skirt. The name of the program Tewii mentioned is the injector. We all know it let's not hide. Now regarding the statement that it just "unbreaks" the game, by removing unnecessary delays, is basically describing the technical workings of the program itself. I'll not enter into bigger details on how it works, but the fact is, that when you know how the program works, as in, you've been in touch with the mechanics of the program or downright the code of it, you don't need to be a BHS programmer to see how your side of the thing works.

    That is what seems to be missing from Spacecats' view, the deeper workings of the 3rd party tools used and how far they affect what. I don't know if he either doesn't know how it technically works or if he's just hiding the things like we didn't see the b-utt under that skirt already. Point in case is, the real deal about those injectors is not faking your DPS as is suggested, it's just fixing the issue with it to begin with.
    Correct me if I'm wrong on the matter, but the program that is the topic is pretty obvious to me at least.
    I'm not gonna say that it's impossible to fake the DPS on the server, like finding some exploit to go 100% crits or faking the power or anything like this, if this is the case and it's found, then yes ban on sight the hacker no questions asked. But the injectors are a different deal.

    There isn't enough technical evidence that it will either avoid or cause a DDoS type of command from the client, some players say it will by it's nature, some say it's nature fixes the possibility of the official client creating one under high ping. That's a matter for a deeper test.


    To be really fair, guys, create a goddemn test server again with client enabled injectors always on, and test the effects on client and server. If it fixes our issues and won't cause new (big) ones then apply it! There's many stuff the community has developed that could very well be used in the game natively but well, we're not the official devs so we can't.

    Wouldn't removing the delay give an advantage to a low ping player over a low ping player that chooses not to use a tool?

    I know Square-Enix intentionally adds a delay to not stress servers and so FFXIV can be played with a 100ms-200ms ping. Just because you have the good intentions of helping players with high ping, the changes made instead have created the fiasco.
  • BluehydraBluehydra ✭✭✭
    Aryix wrote: »
    The only valid arguments related to ping issues on an NA server-based game are those from people that are native to NA. Everyone out of this comfort zone is aware beforehand that they will suffer ping issues. It is not a valid excuse to say "I don't live in the US, please take consideration." simply because you are consuming a product/using a service that does not cater to you. That does not give anyone any reason to break an agreement they made when they signed up to use said service. "It's leveling the playing field," is a lie tho, because not even those that live on the US play at 0 ms. You're not leveling the playing field, you are just getting an advantage for yourself because you are butthurt that other players that CASUALLY live closer to the server and pay more for their internet speed have a better ping than you do. The players were just fine before regardless of the issues.

    If you don't like the lag and delay and issues on NA Tera, play on a region closer to your country, I assure you that you will get better ping without the need of 3rd party add-ons. NA Tera isn't the only server in the world. You can even play KTera, they have talents and more goodies afaik, and they get content first hand.

    Grow up and stop feeling entitled to being pardoned for a ToS infringement just because you invested time, effort, and money. No one told you to do that, and you were aware you might get banned for it.

    I both agree and disagree with you.
    On one hand, i disagree that any concern from people playing from outside USA should be ignored. If the game was catered solely to that demographic, it would be IP locked like many other games are. I think if BHS is gonna work on fixing the game, these people should be considered as well in those fixes.
    For some people, USA tera is the closest one so "growing up and moving to another tera" isnt a solution at all.
    Ive always played with high ping, and i knew those people would have a clear advantage over my 250ms, but i did my best regardless.
    I agree the ToS is clear about 3rd party software and that anything that gives an unfair advantage is a cheat , but many of the programs that were being used do not do this, and removing those programs makes the game almost unplayable, and just like ini fixes, its something completely benign.
    My point isnt that people should be pardoned, but that a fix should be worked upon that can cater to both. After all, we are part of the community that makes this game live.
  • TewiiTewii ✭✭✭
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    I know Square-Enix intentionally adds a delay to not stress servers and so FFXIV can be played with a 100ms-200ms ping. Just because you have the good intentions of helping players with high ping, the changes made instead have created the fiasco.

    FFXIV has built-in skill prediction, where if the skill is off cooldown, and you press it before the previous skill has been completely cast/completed, or the global cooldown built into the game is over [this is a small window]. Not a "delay."
    And if you meant the global cooldown itself.. its.. a.. global.. cooldown...?

    If there was legitimate delay before casting everything FFXIV would not be nearly as popular as it is, as people want a genuine, responsive gaming experience.

    Ironically, that's what one of the programs under fire recently does, while TERA does not.
  • Tewii wrote: »
    Daight90 wrote: »
    And since that program is an open source program, other people who knows coding, could use it for exploit,
    the famous one is the one which is related to ruinous manor, where others can go pass the gate after first boss, and effectively skipping first boss.
    Effectively moving this program from grey zone into black zone.

    I can agree with most things in your post here but this part here implicates that the tool used to measure and analyze a fight's contents was the causation for the RMHM exploit, when it wasn't. As a matter of fact, RMHM could have been exploited without the use of any of the major three third party programs under controversy right now.
    Just wanted to point that out.

    Well yeah it could, but I'm pretty sure most of the people who did that, uses that 'dreaded' program to pass through the gate easily.
    And I feel that this is one of the main reasons which made EME go on a witch hunt, so I added that in. :)
  • Bluehydra wrote: »
    Aryix wrote: »
    The only valid arguments related to ping issues on an NA server-based game are those from people that are native to NA. Everyone out of this comfort zone is aware beforehand that they will suffer ping issues. It is not a valid excuse to say "I don't live in the US, please take consideration." simply because you are consuming a product/using a service that does not cater to you. That does not give anyone any reason to break an agreement they made when they signed up to use said service. "It's leveling the playing field," is a lie tho, because not even those that live on the US play at 0 ms. You're not leveling the playing field, you are just getting an advantage for yourself because you are butthurt that other players that CASUALLY live closer to the server and pay more for their internet speed have a better ping than you do. The players were just fine before regardless of the issues.

    If you don't like the lag and delay and issues on NA Tera, play on a region closer to your country, I assure you that you will get better ping without the need of 3rd party add-ons. NA Tera isn't the only server in the world. You can even play KTera, they have talents and more goodies afaik, and they get content first hand.

    Grow up and stop feeling entitled to being pardoned for a ToS infringement just because you invested time, effort, and money. No one told you to do that, and you were aware you might get banned for it.

    I both agree and disagree with you.
    On one hand, i disagree that any concern from people playing from outside USA should be ignored. If the game was catered solely to that demographic, it would be IP locked like many other games are. I think if BHS is gonna work on fixing the game, these people should be considered as well in those fixes.
    For some people, USA tera is the closest one so "growing up and moving to another tera" isnt a solution at all.
    Ive always played with high ping, and i knew those people would have a clear advantage over my 250ms, but i did my best regardless.
    I agree the ToS is clear about 3rd party software and that anything that gives an unfair advantage is a cheat , but many of the programs that were being used do not do this, and removing those programs makes the game almost unplayable, and just like ini fixes, its something completely benign.
    My point isnt that people should be pardoned, but that a fix should be worked upon that can cater to both. After all, we are part of the community that makes this game live.

    But injector gives a advantage against other players , like she said theres no such thing as ping 0 so people with injector have advantage against those who dont use the 3rd party application besides that a lot of players started using not just for pve but on pvp as well and those players using injector on pvp they desync all over the place what makes really hard to fight against them, either way its wrong.
    You say that without it makes the game unplayable so i ask you something , how people played the game 2-3 years ago since there was no such thing as injector ? how many people from europe and south america made their way to the top without injectors ? your point is not that right besides that eme cant fix the "code" problems in the game thats BHS job, the only thing EME can and should do is fix their servers.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aryix wrote: »
    ElinLove wrote: »
    Aryix wrote: »
    [...]
    If you don't like the lag and delay and issues on NA Tera, play on a region closer to your country, I assure you that you will get better ping without the need of 3rd party add-ons. NA Tera isn't the only server in the world. You can even play KTera, they have talents and more goodies afaik, and they get content first hand.

    Grow up and stop feeling entitled to being pardoned for a ToS infringement just because you invested time, effort, and money. No one told you to do that, and you were aware you might get banned for it.

    I'm gonna say that Brazil doesn't have much difference in ping to ANY of the regions. Not to mention Japan for example (dunno South Korean TERA) is region locked. So yes I also can't play unless I do trough a VPN. Not to mention language barriers, as you can see I'm no idiot using English albeit it's not perfect, but even tho I may know Japanese somehow more or less, I have no friggen idea on Korean. I can't decipher a single hangul character. TERA NA has been for me my "home" since 2014, and yes, I knew since beginning that the servers in the US wouldn't be perfect for me.

    Whoever it does not make the ping problem irrelevant for me, as it doesn't for many Brazilian or any South American, or even Europeans. Heck even Canadians are likely to have ping issues and they're even entitled for the Enmasse prizes like the figures and such.
    These are all consumers for their service. The company should focus on providing a good service so they reach out to more consumers isn't it?

    I'm not defending injector users here or ToS violators, I'm bringing up the fact that you can NOT ignore people outside US cause "They all agreed the ToS and should know they're screwed ping wise".

    Then you are in the wrong thread to comment, since this is after all a "3rd party" thread. If ToS violations isn't your way to solve ping issue, make a constructive thread asking for it, perhaps directly to BHS as well, or send in a ticket. I'm only directing my comments to the people defending and using the 3rd party mods. I'm not on NA, I don't have low ping, and I knew this from the beginning, but a lot of users from these 3rd party programs are now complaining, personally attacking GMs, and look forward to the demise of the NA version of this game simply because they didn't get a pat on the head for breaking an agreement they got into out of their own free will. Not only that, they are banning people from Tera communities simply because they do not agree with their views. They are actually behaving worse than EME, in their own terms honestly.

    It is not our job to take these issues into our hands and solve them, disregarding the legal repercussions that come with said actions and then complaining about it when the banhammer goes down.

    And not all players have innocent intentions with these things. Just one person can mess it all up for everyone, sadly.

    Fair enough, this clarifies a lot. And in this aspect, 100% agreed.
    There sure are cases where some programs would be used harmlessly like VPNs or proxies (that if we're considering those as programs to begin with), and should be dealt with a different mindset than people who find hacks to literally kill out the ping or use their ping as an excuse to go with malicious 3rd party programs.

    This does open up the question about the injector then: it's a 3rd party program that some players have used to avoid partially the ping tax on some skills like the Rapid Fire, and as I mentioned above, I can't say I'm either against or in favor of the injectors until they're tested deeply on some test server. And then I think enmasse should go on this topic deeper: if someone did design a program that fixed BHS' code issues and is not malicious, then it should be implemented in game, so we don't have players that find the need to use 3rd party stuff and keep on the verge of a ban, but instead we all get a better experience.

    In other words: enmasse should take upon the task of evaluating many of the 3rd party solutions to either dismiss them or come with an official - 1st or 2nd party solution (for who's lost, 1st party is BHS, the original developer, enmasse being a subsidiary they're 2nd party. 3rd party ones are outside the chain).
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