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The 3rd Party Thread

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Comments

  • LuniackLuniack Velika Outskirts ✭✭✭
    Services are services, if the point of the problem are people who not alive in US, simple, do ip block, no ip block servers ARE FREE to accept any player from any country. Have to care about? OF COURSE! because we all are same clients.
    Toxic comments about non US players give me nausea...
  • BronzeTubeBronzeTube ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Daight90 wrote: »
    Tewii wrote: »
    Daight90 wrote: »
    And since that program is an open source program, other people who knows coding, could use it for exploit,
    the famous one is the one which is related to ruinous manor, where others can go pass the gate after first boss, and effectively skipping first boss.
    Effectively moving this program from grey zone into black zone.

    I can agree with most things in your post here but this part here implicates that the tool used to measure and analyze a fight's contents was the causation for the RMHM exploit, when it wasn't. As a matter of fact, RMHM could have been exploited without the use of any of the major three third party programs under controversy right now.
    Just wanted to point that out.

    Well yeah it could, but I'm pretty sure most of the people who did that, uses that 'dreaded' program to pass through the gate easily.
    And I feel that this is one of the main reasons which made EME go on a witch hunt, so I added that in. :)

    It was a massive fearmongering episode that probably was due to wires being crossed with the fact that the reward store got taken down around the same time that the exploit was publicly addressed. As someone who has played this game since f2p first hit in 2013, I can tell you that desyncing through barriers has been a common issue that has been regularly exploited by the player base since that time, and even prior to me playing.

    A good example of this is back when people used to do full clears of LoT for MES and alk. Classes like warrior and berserker could easily just iframe through the barriers for quite a while, skipping useless bosses and making the farming run significantly faster. They eventually fixed this by making the collision boxes on them so massive you couldn't do it. During wonderholme patch as well, people would spam opening/closing their inventory window to force their client to lag, which allowed them to desync past a barrier to make one of the bosses significantly faster.

    Those are just a couple of examples but there are way more during the history of TERA. It's been a problem since long before these programs were even conceived, and this idea that "most people" who exploited it were using it and that it made it "easier" is just an assumption with no evidence.
  • PalochiPalochi ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    @Diineve
    Using the 0-ping program in PvP is MUCH worse for who is using it than for who is trying to kill them.
    The "advantage" that the program gives compared to people with 10~40 ping is barely noticeable, however the disavantage that the 140~250+ ping ppl get compared to the 10~50 is gigantic. I play at 200 ping for over 2 years and i'm used to it; i can still see the difference and the reasons to use the 3rd party programs; something that those who are defending the stance from EME seems to be ignoring.
    Also if you remove everyone who isn't from US/NA from the game, the game would probably not have more than 1 or 2 servers, hate to see people bringing that "people who don't want high ping shouldn't be playing" argument.

    Btw, if you banned EVERYONE who actually uses 3rd party programs, at least half of the 65 people would get banned because of how famous the measure program was. Many of you guys defending the bans probably went past the ToS rules as well with that program since it was used by so many people.
  • seraphinushseraphinush ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Spacecats wrote: »
    It can be pretty unfortunate for players with higher ping to use those skills, I agree. There are often "high latency builds" for glyphs and rotations that simply ignore those abilities in the case that your ping is so high that it affects them. That's not an excuse for why the skills shouldn't be changed mechanically, but there are workarounds. There are players out there that still do decent DPS (enough to clear hard mode dungeons) with those other builds.

    On the 3rd party program side of things, there are players using programs that flip things around so that they're actually doing way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program. I'm not saying they all function like that or that it's even a majority of people, but when it happens it changes from a solution to blatantly cheating the system and other players, and we have to act on that.
    1. This totally ignores the fact that PvP is still a content in this game. there is no high latency glyphs and rotations in PvP and you don't just do decent DPS to fight one another
    2. On the note of 'high latency builds' for glyphs and rotations- if people could play the game properly, they would have never existed in the first place. to add on, doing some simple math compounded with real data can prove that these so-called 'high latency builds' will never out DPS those who use optimal builds for classes or i guess the 'low latency builds'
    3. I don't think it's rash to assume players in NA playing NA_TERA have much higher ping on average relative to K_TERA players. this means on average, K_TERA players will output more DPS than we do. if we're succumbing to the fact that we have to use 'workarounds' to play the game, it means (as stupid as this sounds) that the same content we get should be localized to accommodate the workarounds for every patch
    4. The game is meant to be played at a low ping, and the trend of previous patches clearly show this is true, as mechanics are faster, and players are expected to react faster and faster. up until a few years ago, dungeon's like Balder's Temple and Manaya's Core were the end-game dungeons. i'm sure you have some experience looking into the 21st or the 22nd floor of Dreadspire. if you compare Shandra of Manaya's Core to Shandra of Dreadspire, you can feel and see that the game has become faster and faster. issues with ping will only hinder this. and again, on average, we're already at a disadvantage to counter these dungeon mechanics because while the dungeons were designed to be played at a ping lower than 50ms, we're on average playing it at a much higher ping
    5. The tweaks and 3rd party programs exist because the game isn't optimized and the game cannot be played like it should be. you have to understand that because of our high ping, everyone in the game is playing at a disadvantage. is playing at a disadvantage going to be our standard in this game? if so, then refer to 3
    6. And even though it is developed against the ToS, why have you guys not decided to accept the research that players have done and incorporate it into the official patches? I mean, you do that with the raw batch you get from BHS anyways. so simply acknowledging the INI file tweaks out there and implementing it into the official patch should be part of localizing the content for NA_TERA
    7. Saying that "players using programs .. [do] way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program" is simply wrong since a player at 30ms ping with a program will not do more DPS than and a player at 30ms ping without a program, if not the opposite is more probable. you're saying all players using the 3rd party program will do more DPS than others and i just can't emphasize enough that this is not true. if anything, it is admitting that a player who is using a 3rd party program is able to play how the game should be played, that it is lifting the disadvantage players have due to ping.
    There are players out there that still do decent DPS (enough to clear hard mode dungeons) with those other builds.
    Saying that clearing a hard mode dungeon is 'good enough' is only possible now because the game has taken away the competitive aspects of PvE. during Alliance, during Crusades, parties and guilds had to compete against each other to receive the best scores to contribute to guild rankings. to say it is 'good enough' because the developers removed those contents as an excuse not to push for removing ping-dependency on skills and optimizing the game is simply being lazy, and while the words of the publisher constantly ring each year since the official opening of this game, no actions have been shown for the players to trust the publisher enough, and most importantly, no results have been made.

    Maybe asking 'why' these 3rd party programs and decisions to edit TERA files against the ToS were initially made should have been the starting point in the discussion.

    ps. Thanks for taking my suggestion and making this mega-thread

    Edit : I do report comments that are not productive or add constructive criticism to this thread so please stop being abusive and posting comments that are against the forum rules thanks o/
  • Can anyone tell me if Proxy (or "less lag programs") are considered 3d party programs?
    I suposse they not. Because they dont mess at all with client... Just with connections between nodes selecting a route with less jumps.
    Am i right?? I was tinking on test BP if it is allowed.
  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ceciella wrote: »
    @Ginjitsu

    Please take your time and read through the entire thread again.

    You want to be spoonfed and absolutely refuse to read and watch the videos that have been posted like the person who posted the insane difference in rapid fire given just a little bit of additional ping between the player and the server. If you just read the thread you can educate yourself on the issues and form an opinion from accurate facts. There are many arguments in this thread that explain things better than I can, and there's a certain player who has voiced their complaints as a banned developer and the post was subsequently locked and removed without a response.

    Rapid Fire, Burst Fire, Burning Breath, and other skills are intended to be used at low ping because of the way they function and the fact that it is a Korean developer making a game for a Korean audience. Something like a player regularly having 80-120 ping isn't thought of because the game is simply designed for a different audience due to the physical size of their nation and incredible internet connection. When issues like this arise it is because the expectations and reality differ. The skills SHOULD function in a certain way, but they absolutely do not. This has been a known issue for many years.

    However the issue is so much bigger than that in regards to third party things. DPS meters are used by a majority of the endgame community to improve themselves - not harass other players (although that does undeniably happen because there are always going to be [filtered] people in any community). Many top streamers up until this announcement streamed with a DPS meter on. Should they have been banned? Is it an unfair advantage that someone who's colorblind could theoretically see things properly given a third party program since there are absolutely no options for this ingame? What about someone else who gets motion sickness gets a significantly better experience from altering the FOV? Even something as simple as the removing the censorship EME has built into the game for certain costumes is something that they have said can technically be seen as a bannable offense if they know it is going on. Like if someone streams with any of these things could it reasonably result in a ban?

    It's almost unbelievable how many people think even simple optimization fixes are cheating and should result in a ban. If you think that this is trying to justify cheating or that many, many people that are concerned in this thread are simply filthy cheaters who don't want to play the game and just get a reward then please take the time and read through all of the opinions posted in this thread that word things better than I can.

    You're making assumptions on how a skill is intended to work, removing the delay will give a clear advantage against players that choose to not use any tools to overcome challenges brought on by circumstances.

    DPS meters aren't really needed and players did just fine without it for years, even class changes have been made do to player feedback before it was meters were introduced. The "Cheating and Third Party Tools in TERA" announcement was very clear, but people jumped to conclusions about third party part of the thread and completely forgot about the cheating in TERA part. Changing INI files to optimize Tera isn't really cheating, sure technically it can be considered cheating but making that argument is just as stupid as saying you'll be banned for using a third party software like Windows 10.

  • Daight90Daight90 ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    @BronzeTube

    Haha I've played since it first went f2p too! *hi5*
    Hmm about that 'easier' part, I did see people glitching LoT for MWA farming, and people glitching wonderholme's first boss's fence to skip going to 2nd floors as well, with a couple of tries.
    And I seen people with injector, glitching pass ruinous manor with only 1 try. But I haven't seen anybody glitching it without injector though, so I don't know the steps for that, but better not discuss about that further in case our post got deleted for explaining exploits. haha
  • AyiAyi ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Why does it feel like everybody is trying to justify injectors to keep their advantages over legit players? Just quit if you want to cheat so badly, or you'll end up getting banned anyways :3

    Eme made it clear that injectors won't be allowed, so stop repeating yourselves.
  • LoennLoenn
    edited April 2017
    Kind of in-topic but also off. Letting it out here.

    I've been that honest player that hasn't played with mods or meter or whatever. I never felt the need to use one. I supported many of your decisions. Now you've done it, on the twitch stream.

    All that I said was "!raffle early on" and it got me PERMA BANNED. Good job. Great job even. These that go !banned or !proxy didn't get any consequences, but a simple "!raffle early on" was enough for a PERMA BAN? What's the point with this TRIGGERHAPPY on everyone?

    If you keep at it, you ain't gonna only lose the ones at fault but honest ones as well.
    Your turn now.
  • Ayi wrote: »
    Why does it feel like everybody is trying to justify injectors to keep their advantages over legit players? Just quit if you want to cheat so badly, or you'll end up getting banned anyways :3

    Eme made it clear that injectors won't be allowed, so stop repeating yourselves.

    Thats my boy hue
  • LuniackLuniack Velika Outskirts ✭✭✭
    Dhrizzit wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me if Proxy (or "less lag programs") are considered 3d party programs?
    I suposse they not. Because they dont mess at all with client... Just with connections between nodes selecting a route with less jumps.
    Am i right?? I was tinking on test BP if it is allowed.

    no

    Third Party Porgrams as Winamp ( benefits of hear music to play better ) or discord ( benefits of use your voice to get an advantage in your party or raid party while you play ) or overclock thirdparty software ( to get better fps even knowing u are going to drop fps ) and also a proxy ( who isnt used by pirates, hackers, criminals, extraterrestrials, spirits from another dimension and stuff like that ) its legal, but if used by that evil people its going to be closed with a big fire wall to make tera great again

    thats all

    EDIT: macros arent allowed, that means if you have a special mouse with software macros included, its something you maybe need a answer because i dont have idea, guess not, because i play with normal mouse and normal keyboard so i dont know about that stuff, let gms answer

    LMAO i can't alt + tab to use Google Chrome, or play music with Windows Media Player because they are running at same time with Tera ( windows OS as well ) RIP ERROR 404 NOT FOUND xD
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dhrizzit wrote: »
    [...]
    EDIT: macros arent allowed, that means if you have a special mouse with software macros included, its something you maybe need a answer because i dont have idea, guess not, because i play with normal mouse and normal keyboard so i dont know about that stuff, let gms answer

    The game has built in macro blocking already. My keyboard has hotkeys and such (Microsoft Wireless Desktop 2000) and a software that deals with it, that includes macros. I tried once creating some macros for chat like the classic "Heyya all, don't PVP the babies, just DPS their mama" for Kumas Royale and the macro was entirely blocked, but the hotkeys/shortcut keys work normally, so the software isn't disabled per se, but the macros are blocked.
  • MelyodisMelyodis ✭✭✭
    I didn't realize that there are many developers from BHS here and even if they are not from BHS they know how the skills of classes should work wow I'm amazed

    windows 10 could never be classed as a 3rd party why cause tera can't run without an operating.

    Noesis said this not me (Any third party tool or modification of the TERA client is a violation of the TOS and will fall under this. There won't be any exceptions. If you are thinking, "but what about XXXXX? Is it ok?" the answer is: "No. It's not." and you should expect action to be taken.)

    it's not our job to optimize the game if they allow us to do this then those who got banned they will have to unban them. rules are rules understand that.
  • @Legolam Agreed. People are trying to justify cheating and call people [filtered] who disagree. The "shall-not-be-named" gave advantages to people who lived in Chicago compared to people who didn't use it that also lived in Chicago (so "negates a disadvantage" isn't a valid argument.) This is called cheating and with only SP in mind. Add the other modules and everyone's argument gets worse. The Devs should've known this and the risks. Dev.M threatening to release malicious content just proves EME right. SP may not be used maliciously but it has potential for abuse. He should know this or he's stupid. Dev.P took the ban quite hard and is deciding to discontinue his actions and work on a private server. Admirable

    Dev. M did no such thing, stop spreading lies, please. It was something that someone misinterpreted, so please stop blaming them for something they didn't even do.
  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ceciella wrote: »
    @Ginjitsu

    Please take your time and read through the entire thread again.

    You want to be spoonfed and absolutely refuse to read and watch the videos that have been posted like the person who posted the insane difference in rapid fire given just a little bit of additional ping between the player and the server. If you just read the thread you can educate yourself on the issues and form an opinion from accurate facts. There are many arguments in this thread that explain things better than I can, and there's a certain player who has voiced their complaints as a banned developer and the post was subsequently locked and removed without a response.

    Rapid Fire, Burst Fire, Burning Breath, and other skills are intended to be used at low ping because of the way they function and the fact that it is a Korean developer making a game for a Korean audience. Something like a player regularly having 80-120 ping isn't thought of because the game is simply designed for a different audience due to the physical size of their nation and incredible internet connection. When issues like this arise it is because the expectations and reality differ. The skills SHOULD function in a certain way, but they absolutely do not. This has been a known issue for many years.

    However the issue is so much bigger than that in regards to third party things. DPS meters are used by a majority of the endgame community to improve themselves - not harass other players (although that does undeniably happen because there are always going to be [filtered] people in any community). Many top streamers up until this announcement streamed with a DPS meter on. Should they have been banned? Is it an unfair advantage that someone who's colorblind could theoretically see things properly given a third party program since there are absolutely no options for this ingame? What about someone else who gets motion sickness gets a significantly better experience from altering the FOV? Even something as simple as the removing the censorship EME has built into the game for certain costumes is something that they have said can technically be seen as a bannable offense if they know it is going on. Like if someone streams with any of these things could it reasonably result in a ban?

    It's almost unbelievable how many people think even simple optimization fixes are cheating and should result in a ban. If you think that this is trying to justify cheating or that many, many people that are concerned in this thread are simply filthy cheaters who don't want to play the game and just get a reward then please take the time and read through all of the opinions posted in this thread that word things better than I can.

    You're making assumptions on how a skill is intended to work, removing the delay will give a clear advantage against players that choose to not use any tools to overcome challenges brought on by circumstances.

    DPS meters aren't really needed and players did just fine without it for years, even class changes have been made do to player feedback before it was meters were introduced. The "Cheating and Third Party Tools in TERA" announcement was very clear, but people jumped to conclusions about third party part of the thread and completely forgot about the cheating in TERA part. Changing INI files to optimize Tera isn't really cheating, sure technically it can be considered cheating but making that argument is just as stupid as saying you'll be banned for using a third party software like Windows 10.
    Tewii wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    I know Square-Enix intentionally adds a delay to not stress servers and so FFXIV can be played with a 100ms-200ms ping. Just because you have the good intentions of helping players with high ping, the changes made instead have created the fiasco.

    FFXIV has built-in skill prediction, where if the skill is off cooldown, and you press it before the previous skill has been completely cast/completed, or the global cooldown built into the game is over [this is a small window]. Not a "delay."
    And if you meant the global cooldown itself.. its.. a.. global.. cooldown...?

    If there was legitimate delay before casting everything FFXIV would not be nearly as popular as it is, as people want a genuine, responsive gaming experience.

    Ironically, that's what one of the programs under fire recently does, while TERA does not.

    Yes I'm aware of the queue system FFXIV has, global cooldown was the reason I didn't play ARR.
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