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Un-equalized gear in FWC

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Comments

  • LancerJivaLancerJiva ✭✭✭✭✭
    > @W7GNYAP55A said:
    > vtctma wrote: »
    >
    > There used to be both an eq and un-eq FWC. Only one popped. It's pretty clear a majority of the PvP community preferred the unequalized version. It's not hard getting a conflate set or misery gear now, which only has slightly lower attk modifier than +15 ambush. So yeah, all these excuses of +15 premade cancer is pretty moot. If you want functional gear, you can easily get it. There's no longer separate pvp and pve sets like in the past with tensus/lucid, renegade/generation.
    >
    > The only reason OP has stated for wanting FWC to remain EQ is so he/she get the box with the best reward. PVE favors players with better gear to run harder instances. PVP SHOULD favor players who work to obtain better gear. All those arguments about full +15 premades ruining games are irrelevant. If you played against them in EQ, they would still smash you because they took the time to learn how to PvP. MT has turned into a PvE server now that every BG has become EQ and there's no open world pvp. That pretty much sums up how players feel about FWC.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Excuses? Let me make this more clear for you. The reason they separated BG and PvE content is to make it more enjoyable for both sides of the spectrum for players who enjoy PvP or PvE.
    >
    > I enjoy PvP, I do NOT like PvE, nor am I willing to buy any of the feedstocks to gear up the gear. That isn't excuses, that's just me preferring PvP content over PvE. You're telling me to sacrifice all the resources and income I've generated through the market just so I can stay relevant in FWC un-equalized? How selfish.
    >
    > You are literally forcing players who enjoy PvP content to run PvE and spend their currency in-game to gear up just so we can participate in FWC for the rewards. Lets measure up the cost and time it takes to gear up properly for an un-equalized FWC.
    >
    > T4 Etchings x2 = 200k
    > T3 Etchings x2 = 120k
    > Spellbinds, Semi-Enigmatic, Master Enigmatic, Feedstocks, Alkahest = 200k minimal to get +12 on all gear
    > Mastering +12 to +15 ==> Lets not even go there, but I'll give it a total of 500k for all gears.
    > Time it takes to get a VM set ==> I'll give it a month if doing it the hard way, no money spent, and you don't play 24/7. (1 weapon)
    >
    > Mannnn, just so I can stay relevant and win those reward prizes more, I have to invest in 1,200,000 million in-game currency. Tough luck casual gamers, new comers, and anyone who wants to use battleground as a source of income! You won't be able to use FWC (which has the best rewards) because it has now been un-equalized and only the top tier guilds with all +15 will probably run sack that entire battleground 24/7. And lets not forget, a big blow to PvP content players only (like myself) who avoids PvE content because it's utterly boring and time consuming.
    >
    > Lets look at Civil Unrest, look at how that's performing... Oh wait, it's run sacked by top +15 tier guilds who probably run those injector also.

    Holy wall of text. You can do fwc fine in mid tier gear with tier 2 etchings and the right crystals
  • W7GNYAP55A wrote: »
    vtctma wrote: »
    There used to be both an eq and un-eq FWC. Only one popped. It's pretty clear a majority of the PvP community preferred the unequalized version. It's not hard getting a conflate set or misery gear now, which only has slightly lower attk modifier than +15 ambush. So yeah, all these excuses of +15 premade cancer is pretty moot. If you want functional gear, you can easily get it. There's no longer separate pvp and pve sets like in the past with tensus/lucid, renegade/generation.

    The only reason OP has stated for wanting FWC to remain EQ is so he/she get the box with the best reward. PVE favors players with better gear to run harder instances. PVP SHOULD favor players who work to obtain better gear. All those arguments about full +15 premades ruining games are irrelevant. If you played against them in EQ, they would still smash you because they took the time to learn how to PvP. MT has turned into a PvE server now that every BG has become EQ and there's no open world pvp. That pretty much sums up how players feel about FWC.

    Excuses? Let me make this more clear for you. The reason they separated BG and PvE content is to make it more enjoyable for both sides of the spectrum for players who enjoy PvP or PvE.

    I enjoy PvP, I do NOT like PvE, nor am I willing to buy any of the feedstocks to gear up the gear. That isn't excuses, that's just me preferring PvP content over PvE. You're telling me to sacrifice all the resources and income I've generated through the market just so I can stay relevant in FWC un-equalized? How selfish.

    You are literally forcing players who enjoy PvP content to run PvE and spend their currency in-game to gear up just so we can participate in FWC for the rewards. Lets measure up the cost and time it takes to gear up properly for an un-equalized FWC.

    T4 Etchings x2 = 200k
    T3 Etchings x2 = 120k
    Spellbinds, Semi-Enigmatic, Master Enigmatic, Feedstocks, Alkahest = 200k minimal to get +12 on all gear
    Mastering +12 to +15 ==> Lets not even go there, but I'll give it a total of 500k for all gears.
    Time it takes to get a VM set ==> I'll give it a month if doing it the hard way, no money spent, and you don't play 24/7. (1 weapon)

    Mannnn, just so I can stay relevant and win those reward prizes more, I have to invest in 1,200,000 million in-game currency. Tough luck casual gamers, new comers, and anyone who wants to use battleground as a source of income! You won't be able to use FWC (which has the best rewards) because it has now been un-equalized and only the top tier guilds with all +15 will probably run sack that entire battleground 24/7. And lets not forget, a big blow to PvP content players only (like myself) who avoids PvE content because it's utterly boring and time consuming.

    Lets look at Civil Unrest, look at how that's performing... Oh wait, it's run sacked by top +15 tier guilds who probably run those injector also.

    Your calculations legit show that you are making excuses. Conflate was obtainable through purely PvP. Only thing you neede was like colluva ingots which are like 100g each. Conflate was tier 9 equipment so it's very very easily masterworked and enchanted. You can get a full +12 conflate set with tier 2 etchings with like 150k. In terms of pvp output, it's only slightly weaker than ambush, not to mention most players have their ambush gear rolled for PvE. So no, you could easily stay relevant without running PvE. Stop making excuses. If you want good rewards, earn it.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    LancerJiva wrote: »
    > @W7GNYAP55A said:
    > vtctma wrote: »
    >
    > There used to be both an eq and un-eq FWC. Only one popped. It's pretty clear a majority of the PvP community preferred the unequalized version. It's not hard getting a conflate set or misery gear now, which only has slightly lower attk modifier than +15 ambush. So yeah, all these excuses of +15 premade cancer is pretty moot. If you want functional gear, you can easily get it. There's no longer separate pvp and pve sets like in the past with tensus/lucid, renegade/generation.
    >
    > The only reason OP has stated for wanting FWC to remain EQ is so he/she get the box with the best reward. PVE favors players with better gear to run harder instances. PVP SHOULD favor players who work to obtain better gear. All those arguments about full +15 premades ruining games are irrelevant. If you played against them in EQ, they would still smash you because they took the time to learn how to PvP. MT has turned into a PvE server now that every BG has become EQ and there's no open world pvp. That pretty much sums up how players feel about FWC.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Excuses? Let me make this more clear for you. The reason they separated BG and PvE content is to make it more enjoyable for both sides of the spectrum for players who enjoy PvP or PvE.
    >
    > I enjoy PvP, I do NOT like PvE, nor am I willing to buy any of the feedstocks to gear up the gear. That isn't excuses, that's just me preferring PvP content over PvE. You're telling me to sacrifice all the resources and income I've generated through the market just so I can stay relevant in FWC un-equalized? How selfish.
    >
    > You are literally forcing players who enjoy PvP content to run PvE and spend their currency in-game to gear up just so we can participate in FWC for the rewards. Lets measure up the cost and time it takes to gear up properly for an un-equalized FWC.
    >
    > T4 Etchings x2 = 200k
    > T3 Etchings x2 = 120k
    > Spellbinds, Semi-Enigmatic, Master Enigmatic, Feedstocks, Alkahest = 200k minimal to get +12 on all gear
    > Mastering +12 to +15 ==> Lets not even go there, but I'll give it a total of 500k for all gears.
    > Time it takes to get a VM set ==> I'll give it a month if doing it the hard way, no money spent, and you don't play 24/7. (1 weapon)
    >
    > Mannnn, just so I can stay relevant and win those reward prizes more, I have to invest in 1,200,000 million in-game currency. Tough luck casual gamers, new comers, and anyone who wants to use battleground as a source of income! You won't be able to use FWC (which has the best rewards) because it has now been un-equalized and only the top tier guilds with all +15 will probably run sack that entire battleground 24/7. And lets not forget, a big blow to PvP content players only (like myself) who avoids PvE content because it's utterly boring and time consuming.
    >
    > Lets look at Civil Unrest, look at how that's performing... Oh wait, it's run sacked by top +15 tier guilds who probably run those injector also.

    Holy wall of text. You can do fwc fine in mid tier gear with tier 2 etchings and the right crystals

    You can do the same with equalized gear on FWC, the only things you need are good crystals, skills and team work to win. Making it unequalized will add more variables to the equation like etchings, gear, jewellery; making skills and team work harder for those who don't have the same things as the other team.

    Right now what screw more the BG is the team composition, since you can know who is going to win almost at the start of the match, if we assume each team has the same skill team composition is the most important thing in Mass PvP.

    I would better balance the matching system to make the battles more equal between teams, before making it unequalized.
  • Unfortunately I think most people in this thread are looking over the underlying reason that fwc has always popped. Rewards. During crusades fwc seldomly popped outside of the first 2 days of a new season because the top PvP guilds wanted the ranks. At that time fwc didn't really give any rewards that made people keep running it. CS was much more popular because you could level with it and get sea chests.

    During the last 3-4 seasons of crusades they buffed the amount of ks you got from fwc and nerfed CS. Thus fwc started popping like crazy.

    Now since then fwc has continued to pop due to rewards but the population has shifted. Previously it was the top PvP guilds and dedicated PvP players who were willing to invest in gear. Since the shift to eq gear those players have stopped spamming fwc like they did and moved to PvE due to it being more profitable and eq pvp is vastly different to un-eq PvP. (On a side note, many PvP players also feel betrayed and let down because of how much dedicated PvP content has been cut out).

    Instead of the "top PvP guilds", it's now pve players or players who feel investing in PvP gear is wasteful. This is perfectly fine, they are players like the rest who want PvP, they just don't want to do pve or other content to get gear(also okay because some players don't have the time to).

    Now the current issue is the PvP players are being split, the eq people don't want to have to pve for gear and the non-eq want higher quality PvP (sadly only players who have experienced both can understand how poor the eq gear is in the larger scale bgs, gridiron is the biggest example, anyone saying it is quality PvP has not done any form of un-eq PvP). The real way to resolve this is to bring the eq players up to non-eq standard. Give PvP players a PvP avenue to advance their character and gear. Not only will the eq players get the enjoyment of seeing improvement in their own character, but the non-eq players will get to use their gear more and not have to be forced to play with the even more unbalanced gear that is eq gear.

    TL;DR

    Rewards are the biggest issue. Let PvP players gear doing PvP. Help bring players up, not drag higher players down.
  • TewiiTewii ✭✭✭
    W7GNYAP55A wrote: »
    Lets measure up the cost and time it takes to gear up properly for an un-equalized FWC.
    T4 Etchings x2 = 200k
    T3 Etchings x2 = 120k
    Spellbinds, Semi-Enigmatic, Master Enigmatic, Feedstocks, Alkahest = 200k minimal to get +12 on all gear
    Mastering +12 to +15 ==> Lets not even go there, but I'll give it a total of 500k for all gears.
    Time it takes to get a VM set ==> I'll give it a month if doing it the hard way, no money spent, and you don't play 24/7. (1 weapon)

    Mannnn, just so I can stay relevant and win those reward prizes more, I have to invest in 1,200,000 million in-game currency. Tough luck casual gamers, new comers, and anyone who wants to use battleground as a source of income! You won't be able to use FWC (which has the best rewards) because it has now been un-equalized and only the top tier guilds with all +15 will probably run sack that entire battleground 24/7. And lets not forget, a big blow to PvP content players only (like myself) who avoids PvE content because it's utterly boring and time consuming.

    Lets look at Civil Unrest, look at how that's performing... Oh wait, it's run sacked by top +15 tier guilds who probably run those injector also.

    If you're paying 100k per T4 etching you're getting ripped off. Most people sell them in-guild for about 30k.
    If you're paying 60k per T3... look at the example above.

    If you're enchanting conflate or midtier, which is perfectly fine, it won't cost as high as 200k. And to tell me that it's difficult to get midtier and enchant it is dumb. It's a mixed PvPvE game. Even if you have no gear, you still get equalized gear. I personally have a Reaper in full Slaughter, with Dyads equipped purely because I know I'll still be able to pull massive weight by means of my own skill, even if it becomes unequalized, I'll still have my Conflict Weapon with 22k attack power which rivals Behemoth.

    Also your entire point is kind of silly, you want to put no effort into getting the highest form of rewards from a certain type of content? That isn't exactly what happens in literally every other MMO out there. If you want the best rewards, you invest and gear yourself in able to do so. Pick up the slack and you'll get rewarded.
    I also like the random injector callout. To me it just seems like you're trying to blame something on losses - gear, third party programs and all. Might be a l2p issue.
  • 5H96Y49G6D5H96Y49G6D ✭✭✭
    How much u wan a bet most complaining bout fwc going back to eq are not even pvpers
  • 5H96Y49G6D wrote: »
    How much u wan a bet most complaining bout fwc going back to eq are not even pvpers

    They aren't. Every dedicated PvPer has a conflate set or has moved onto end game PvE. Casuals want everything catered to them since all they care about is the rewards, not the content.
  • edited May 2017
    back in the old days fwc unequalised was actually balanced pve gear was bad so you worked to get BP gear once you had 2nd tier PvP gear you could win against raids in full +12 nightforge. So long as your team was full strikeforce or mostly strikeforce and nightforge.

    But then again I'll say again it was balanced better. No super op classes no super broken ultimate gear pieces that put everyone at much much higher levels. You went in with pve you got wrecked hence why you felt the need to do corshairs to get PvP and then you'd be fine. Strikeforce was good and it felt good to have.

    That is not how tera is these days there is no 2nd tier gear that is comparible to Vm8 or VM9. Which is needed to compete in pvp these days. Anything less and you'll be destroyed​. The fact that this game is still despite this patch still catering to pve does not help.

    Unequalised would only work if there were gear sets specifically designed for PvP that absolutely smash and destroy pve and slowly progressed giving you a better stats over time like how wow arena gear worked. It didn't put you above your enemy so much so they wouldn't win unless they were full pve as there gear got scaled down in stats to be lessser than the arena gear.

    Those who have conflate have something going for them for now but the moment more people start getting vm8 and vm9 is when balance will shift tremendously in the worst possible way.
  • back in the old days fwc unequalised was actually balanced pve gear was bad so you worked to get BP gear once you had 2nd tier PvP gear you could win against raids in full +12 nightforge. So long as your team was full strikeforce or mostly strikeforce and nightforge.

    But then again I'll say again it was balanced better. No super op classes no super broken ultimate gear pieces that put everyone at much much higher levels. You went in with pve you got wrecked hence why you felt the need to do corshairs to get PvP and then you'd be fine. Strikeforce was good and it felt good to have.

    That is not how tera is these days there is no 2nd tier gear that is comparible to Vm8 or VM9. Which is needed to compete in pvp these days. Anything less and you'll be destroyed​. The fact that this game is still despite this patch still catering to pve does not help.

    Unequalised would only work if there were gear sets specifically designed for PvP that absolutely smash and destroy pve and slowly progressed giving you a better stats over time like how wow arena gear worked. It didn't put you above your enemy so much so they wouldn't win unless they were full pve as there gear got scaled down in stats to be lessser than the arena gear.

    Those who have conflate have something going for them for now but the moment more people start getting vm8 and vm9 is when balance will shift tremendously in the worst possible way.

    Hello? Conflate is fine against vm8? Not sure how the balance isn't fine at the moment. Only thing unbalanced are the new classes and the EQ gear.
  • ElinerdElinerd ✭✭
    vtctma wrote: »
    There used to be both an eq and un-eq FWC. Only one popped. It's pretty clear a majority of the PvP community preferred the unequalized version. It's not hard getting a conflate set or misery gear now, which only has slightly lower attk modifier than +15 ambush. So yeah, all these excuses of +15 premade cancer is pretty moot. If you want functional gear, you can easily get it. There's no longer separate pvp and pve sets like in the past with tensus/lucid, renegade/generation.
    The only reason OP has stated for wanting FWC to remain EQ is so he/she get the box with the best reward. PVE favors players with better gear to run harder instances. PVP SHOULD favor players who work to obtain better gear. All those arguments about full +15 premades ruining games are irrelevant. If you played against them in EQ, they would still smash you because they took the time to learn how to PvP. MT has turned into a PvE server now that every BG has become EQ and there's no open world pvp. That pretty much sums up how players feel about FWC.
    The reason the old EQ FWC didn't pop was because it was solo-queue only and compared to non-EQ it was slow as hell. And since people were even worse players than they are today(the first EQ FWC was still in the days of new F2P players) it was just a terrible experience.

    And yeah geared people should win in FWC, obviously, but the rules of the game and the gear progressions have changed drastically. Like I said yesterday if there's a 100% chance people will lose they will stop doing the BG. And the mere existence of +15, etchings, and class imbalance(energetic brawlers probably being the worst thing for fun PVP) makes a modern un-EQ FWC an almost polar opposite of FWC during the glory days when you always had a chance to win or at least do well however your play style. Back then, even against VM pre-mades, there were solo q champs who still maintained 80+% win ratios because the game was balanced around wit and individual skill. Modern FWC is nearly pure zerging with FOTM classes that are grossly overpowered. If the gear is un-EQ, which is objectively less balanced by a huge margin, it won't be remotely fun for the vast majority of people. That even includes the tryhard groups because it will be too easy and the BG will be even more dead.

    Also I read someone else saying that this game isn't P2W(lol) and that not everyone swipes. That may be true, but it's still a fact that people will cap out gear fast and most people will never even get close to doing that. It doesn't seem possible to foster a decent FWC population if the game is unbalanced like that.

    The most fun FWC has been for me as well was during the tournaments where everyone had the same gear. Because it was an equal playing field and the gear wasn't poorly balanced. 'EQ' in that regard proves that it can work, in my opinion. EQ gear as it stands just sucks.
    W7GNYAP55A wrote: »
    So no, you could easily stay relevant without running PvE. Stop making excuses. If you want good rewards, earn it.
    I haven't played constantly over the past few years so I can't be sure but from what I experienced years back when FWC started getting [filtered] was that bad players wouldn't work toward gearing up for PVP because they were getting curb stomped every single match. It was basically impossible to enjoy doing it and there wasn't a chance of ever catching up to the top tiers. Yes people like gear progression but when there's a massive gap in the potential or whatever that a player can become relevant, the lower echelon is just going to cop out. And there will always be people dragging down even the average players who do want to gear up but can't do it in one day like the serious epeen players can. It's just not fun rolling into a FWC match with your friendly neighborhood +8 BRs against 2 capped premades. I don't think people will do it just like those old days. And now there is far more class imbalance.
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Right now what screw more the BG is the team composition, since you can know who is going to win almost at the start of the match, if we assume each team has the same skill team composition is the most important thing in Mass PvP.
    It's not really team composition, it's players carrying matches. If those top tier players(anyone who does FWC knows them) lose a match it's because they had legendary BRs holding them back or the other team had a good and lucky KS hero.
  • ElinerdElinerd ✭✭
    Rewards are the biggest issue. Let PvP players gear doing PvP. Help bring players up, not drag higher players down.
    I've been saying for a long time that there should be PVP specific gear you can earn just by doing PVP so that the progression is similar to how it was when FWC was new. Have everyone gear up simultaneously, purely through grinding BGs. Most people had a pretty good time grinding for Fraywind then +9 then Conjunct then +12 and tryhards could get VM1 which was extraordinarily hard for many months. The sense of progression back then was real. The only negative back then was how hard it was to enchant but that's a non-issue now!
  • W7GNYAP55A wrote: »
    roxxapoxx wrote: »
    W7GNYAP55A wrote: »
    roxxapoxx wrote: »
    People who claim P2W also don't spend their time gathering and making etchings or using any of the methods for in-game gold making.... so it's pretty hilarious.

    Yea and one of that main method of making gold in-game is to run FWC. But if you un-equalize it, say bye bye to that casual gamer and new comers! Because you're forced to go +15 your gear into order to get the rewards in FWC or tough luck.

    They should just create a balance system. But anything like that is too much to ask. But screw all of us hardcore gamers that grind for hours in hard mode to gain our +15 gear.. with nothing to show for it. We're also the ones paying to play. :) So yeah... catering to casual gamers and new players sounds wonderful.

    That's category prejudice. EME and yourself are wanting to change FWC into a +15 just so those elitist can show off their gear while at the expense of other players in the game? No. It's favoritism for only the strongest, while everyone else can't have the piece of the pie. I do not stand for that kind of logic or reasoning.

    Just for what it's worth... the only reason why EME "wants to change it," and the reason why Player Council brought it up at the time, was because there was massive player outcry after the change was originally made. People were complaining bitterly about how stupid it was that the game no longer allowed you to use the gear you worked/grinded to earn. This was long after +15 gear existed in the game, although after BHS nerfed the difference compared to when it was at its worst.

    I personally argued at the time that I thought rewards were a bigger factor than gear (although equalized gear still needed many improvements to not suck), but anyway... it's literally only because a lot of people complained and made their case to EME, and they promised to bring it forward to them as a NA PvP community request. It's not like I expect 100% of the community agreed then, or will agree now many months after the current system is in place... but the idea to do this was definitely by "popular request" at the time.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    As mentioned about the reason FWC pops fast as rewards being it, I can confirm by experience: when CS was the top dog of the BGs, Sea Chests were worth some nice money, diamond jackpots every now and then (and the classical Global flaunting of the hard earned jewel) it would pop in decent times (~5miin for 30+ days) even for DPS classes, heals being almost or literally insta-queue, I think this was around 2015, could be wrong on date.

    At those times people did mock FWC as being dead. And it was unequalized FWC by the way.
    I tried queing for that, even on my pug gear just to check how it looked like, if I maybe could get some kills, dunno maybe I could have some fun. Nothing. Nada. Nanimo. Ei mitään. About an hour on queue and then I gave up.

    Then they pumped up the credits and made it semi-EQ, voilla FWC pops fast, about same time as CS did. People started to farm it for KS and Belcarium (most KS tho, Belcarium was still CS), even I did it and in fact, it was pretty fun. Those were Dreadnaught days if I recall, I was on Reaper that time.
    Then they killed CS queue and the rest you should know.

    TL;DR: FWC was dead on the non-EQ days, EQ one was separate and didn't have a slight bit of life to it.
  • ElinerdElinerd ✭✭
    edited May 2017
    vtctma wrote: »
    They aren't. Every dedicated PvPer has a conflate set or has moved onto end game PvE.
    I'm pretty dedicated and some of my alts still wear level 60 gear because of the sxc custom outfits I put on them. I don't have any Conflate and don't ever do PVE.

    There are lots of dedicated BG fanatics who don't play for the rewards.
    ElinLove wrote: »
    TL;DR: FWC was dead on the non-EQ days, EQ one was separate and didn't have a slight bit of life to it.
    It was dead at this time because of years of gear imbalance dragging down interest. Basically what I've been mentioning in my posts. And like you say because of mismanaging rewards.
  • Elinerd wrote: »
    vtctma wrote: »
    They aren't. Every dedicated PvPer has a conflate set or has moved onto end game PvE.
    I'm pretty dedicated and some of my alts still wear level 60 gear because of the sxc custom outfits I put on them. I don't have any Conflate and don't ever do PVE.

    There are lots of dedicated BG fanatics who don't play for the rewards.
    ElinLove wrote: »
    TL;DR: FWC was dead on the non-EQ days, EQ one was separate and didn't have a slight bit of life to it.
    It was dead at this time because of years of gear imbalance dragging down interest. Basically what I've been mentioning in my posts. And like you say because of mismanaging rewards.

    I can assure you 90% of the players who have Windjammer Title want unequalized FWC back. The removal of unequalized PvP from BG then open world in combination of the removal of rankings has killed PvP. I'm sure @StarSprite 's former guild pretty sums up the death of PvP in this game. The dedicated players who want to use their gear for pvp have all quit or switched completely to pve.

    Gridiron used to pop nonstop every night during tensus and starfall patch. That was when it was un-EQ and all those cheese totems used to exist. Grid was fun. Now that it's EQ and all the small totems have been removed, it really is such a boring BG. People only queue for rewards instead of for fun. If FWC was once again separated into EQ and un-EQ, it's pretty clear which one would pop.
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