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Backstab

edited June 2017 in PvP Discussion
Lets talk about backstab. Not the kind that has counterplay, the kind that doesn't.
This skill has always been the definition of unfun to play against since Warrior and now Valkyries have one that's just as unfun to play against.

You can't react to Backstab, you can only predict it and dodge preemptively.
Of course, there are many skills where this is the case. Take for example Reaper's Cable Step or Archer's Radiant/Penetrating Arrow.

However, what makes Backstab different from the examples above is that it takes no brains and practice to use.
Just watch as your opponent panics and uses all their i-frames, then press Backstab.

Why would they panic though? It's not like one Backstab = death
But it does. One Backstab is all it takes to kill your opponent, especially as a Valk.

So what do you do since you're so limited on i-frames and your opponent can't miss the skill no matter how bad they are?
You jump. Keep jumping. Being knocked down is way better than dying.

However, many people consider jumping BM, but it's a life or death situation we're talking about here.
Jumping used to be the answer against wars back then, but for some reason, wars and valks can KD lock you better than a serker.

Putting your retaliate on cooldown is like a death sentence as well.

Slayer's Backstab is the definition of balanced. It's a high risk high reward skill that rewards the pilot if they read their opponent.
Ninja's Decoy is the definition of balanced. It gives opponents a visual cue and enough delay to react against it. It also doesn't guarantee an entire combo rotation from the Ninja just for pressing a button.

Always loved Tera's PvP because it felt like a battle of outsmarting your opponent through real-time action combat.
You can't outsmart backstab, you can only play a guessing game and hope you guessed right.

The developers realized how unhealthy nonreactable skills were. Look what they did to Sorc's Time Gyre, it's not a root that's applied in the blink of an eye. You can actually dodge by reacting to it now. Ninja's one of the newer classes and the class has no brain dead way to set up their combos, they even made their version of backstab more of a repositioning tool and their single stun the smallest of hitbox.

So why have we gone backwards with Valk? By far Valks are the easiest class to play in PvP because almost every skill they have to set up for their one-combo requires no aim in a game that markets itself as action combat. Also went from a stun that requires proper spacing to one that even monkies can land.
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Comments

  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    They are reworking Backstab to something that goes on cooldown even if you don't hit anything, or target a person facing their back on a wall. as well as a longer cooldown when in PvP.

    Backstab isn't toxic to the game when implemented right like what you said, but I feel the biggest problem with the cancer backstab classes is that they chain too easily into more staggers/stuns. Valkyrie wasn't meant to be strong in PvP, because BHS have never balanced new classes towards PvP (If you haven't already realised, Reaper, Ninja, Brawler, Gunner, Valkyrie, why are they still stupidly stronger in PvP on release date?) This is why I, alongside many others, feel like BHS has never really thought about how to implement PvP at all.
  • MistrussMistruss ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    aeee98 wrote: »
    They are reworking Backstab to something that goes on cooldown even if you don't hit anything, or target a person facing their back on a wall. as well as a longer cooldown when in PvP.

    Backstab isn't toxic to the game when implemented right like what you said, but I feel the biggest problem with the cancer backstab classes is that they chain too easily into more staggers/stuns. Valkyrie wasn't meant to be strong in PvP, because BHS have never balanced new classes towards PvP (If you haven't already realised, Reaper, Ninja, Brawler, Gunner, Valkyrie, why are they still stupidly stronger in PvP on release date?) This is why I, alongside many others, feel like BHS has never really thought about how to implement PvP at all.

    The thing is though, all those newer classes you mentioned do not have access to a skill that instantly grants them their full combo.

    Reapers must aim their Cable Step and their Smite can be reacted against.
    Ninjas have to land Double Cut to lead into a combo which can be reacted against since it's not a huge 15m+ gap closer.
    Brawler's 3rd hit of Ground Pound can be i-framed and their Bull Rush into Kick combo can easily be avoided.
    Gunner's Bouncing Betty is only a threat when they're kiss up close.

    Valk on the other hand... Just press button.
  • You can react to Valkyrie backstab and Reaper cable step!
  • KDMWN5E3HJKDMWN5E3HJ ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    I don't mind removing all the stuns from warrior if u give him giga blades and aoes and dmg, cause in mass pvp i won't do [filtered] with my backstep
  • KiraboshiKiraboshi ✭✭✭
    The misinformation is strong with this thread.

  • TewiiTewii ✭✭✭
    Zerk: Block it, Mocking Shout, Tenacity to ignore the followup stun combo.
    Slayer: Use WW/KDS/HT, turn quickly and eviscerate to counter-KD backstab.
    Warrior: Block or backstab them yourself.
    Lancer: Block, Rallying.
    Sorc: Warp Barrier into staggering them yourself with LS.
    Brawler: Block.

    Requires some reading but if you knew everything someone was going to do 19 years in advance then PvP wouldn't be fun, would it? Just read them a little, use some game sense, or hell even count the cooldown in your head.
  • MiskuChanMiskuChan ✭✭✭
    Giga is worse.
  • MistrussMistruss ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Tewii wrote: »
    Zerk: Block it, Mocking Shout, Tenacity to ignore the followup stun combo.
    Slayer: Use WW/KDS/HT, turn quickly and eviscerate to counter-KD backstab.
    Warrior: Block or backstab them yourself.
    Lancer: Block, Rallying.
    Sorc: Warp Barrier into staggering them yourself with LS.
    Brawler: Block.

    Requires some reading but if you knew everything someone was going to do 19 years in advance then PvP wouldn't be fun, would it? Just read them a little, use some game sense, or [filtered] even count the cooldown in your head.

    Yes, what you listed can counter either warrior's or valk's backstab, but everything you listed requires the warrior or valk to Backstab into those attacks/defensive options.

    This wouldn't mean that you read the valk or warrior, the warrior or valk was just bad.
    For example, you know that a priest using purifying circle has super armor, therefore, you wait until they're out of the animation before throwing out backstab.

    However, you're aware that the priest may back step anticipating your backstab after the purifying circle animation is over so you hold your backstab. The Priest's final option is to kaia's or else they will die and so they use kaia's in hopes you backstab them. But you don't. You made the priest use purifying circle, back step, kaia's just by doing nothing.

    This doesn't just go for priests, this goes for any class. Classes with a block will turtle their block in hopes that you backstab into them while they're holding their block. They can't react to backstab, they only hope that you whiff it (god knows how?) or run into stun or stagger immunity by being bad.

    Take for example Reaper's Smite. Have a Reaper stand 10m next to any class with a block and do a showdown. The moment the Reaper hits Smite if your reaction is good enough, you can block it. It has enough frames in the attack which allows a human to block.

    Do the same for Warrior or Valk, you can't. You have to guess because there aren't enough start up frames in the attack which permits a human to block it.

    The main point I'd like to present is that the skill is too rewarding for how stupid easy it is to land.
  • Mistruss wrote: »

    This wouldn't mean that you read the valk or warrior, the warrior or valk was just bad.
    For example, you know that a priest using purifying circle has super armor, therefore, you wait until they're out of the animation before throwing out backstab.
    im starting to wonder if you have any knowledge of how classes and skills work. cleanse having stagger/kd immunity has nothing to do with a stun. if a priest cleanses, you can backstab right there lol...
    However, you're aware that the priest may back step anticipating your backstab after the purifying circle animation is over so you hold your backstab. The Priest's final option is to kaia's or else they will die and so they use kaia's in hopes you backstab them. But you don't. You made the priest use purifying circle, back step, kaia's just by doing nothing.
    kaias is kd/stagger immunity, not stun immunity, so kaias while anticipating a backstab is literally useless. the priest would have to anticipate backstab and use gs to become immune to stun. all the while you're holding your backstab and waiting for the priest to do something, you could get combo'd for standing around the priest and not doing anything. besides, a good priest wouldn't have to waste any of their skills. a priest that wastes skills anticipating a backstab is a garbage priest.
    This doesn't just go for priests, this goes for any class. Classes with a block will turtle their block in hopes that you backstab into them while they're holding their block. They can't react to backstab, they only hope that you whiff it (god knows how?) or run into stun or stagger immunity by being bad.

    if you're turtling with block against a warrior then you're doing something wrong. you dont need to turtle to block a backstab. you can tap block if you read the warrior. it's not hard.

    besides, any good warrior won't backstab out of the blue. it's a waste. most warriors will stagger confirm into a backstab like they should.
  • YraiYrai ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    I think the problem is that a possible backstab out of the blue is still an option. Even though good warriors (and Valks I guess) don't do this all the time, it's still there. It adds pressure for some people and causes them to panic, because they expect it to be thrown out regardless of how skilled said player is. No animation tell for a long range stun skill does sound pretty intimidating for anyone who's getting into pvp or even some who are experienced.
  • MistrussMistruss ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    im starting to wonder if you have any knowledge of how classes and skills work. cleanse having stagger/kd immunity has nothing to do with a stun. if a priest cleanses, you can backstab right there lol...

    Internally laughing. I just love the fact you came in here thinking you knew what you're talking about, but then show how ignorant you are.

    Did you know that Valk's backstab is a stagger? Well clearly you didn't from reading your response.
    That response you quoted was in regards to a valk's backstab. If you'd like, I can give you the warrior version.

    Get lucky and try to anticipate warrior's backstab with back step, if you don't, godbless and try to guess with Gaurdian Sancturary.
    This isn't 2015 where you can live a warrior combo as a cloth class.

    Back then if you were a healer, a backstab combo most likely wouldn't kill you and you could play around after a warrior did their full combo on you. However, right now one backstab is all it takes to kill any cloth user and sometimes even leather.

    Look, if you're going to try and be condescending at least read into the context of the conversation you're trying to jump into.
    Maybe then you'll give a productive answer?
  • Mistruss wrote: »

    Did you know that Valk's backstab is a stagger? Well clearly you didn't from reading your response.
    That response you quoted was in regards to a valk's backstab. If you'd like, I can give you the warrior version.
    did you know that you mentioned both warrior and valk when you were talking about backstab? that's kinda why i was talking about warrior backstab.
    Get lucky and try to anticipate warrior's backstab with back step, if you don't, godbless and try to guess with Gaurdian Sancturary.
    This isn't 2015 where you can live a warrior combo as a cloth class.
    its a good thing gs lasts like 10 seconds so that even if you predict wrong you're still untouchable by backstab for 10 seconds.
    Back then if you were a healer, a backstab combo most likely wouldn't kill you and you could play around after a warrior did their full combo on you. However, right now one backstab is all it takes to kill any cloth user and sometimes even leather.
    well it's a good thing that priests have kd and stagger immunity so that they can counter a backstab and live it without being full combo'd.
    this also isnt 2015 where everything was determined by 1v1s. most pvp nowadays is group pvp with the exception of duels.
    Look, if you're going to try and be condescending at least read into the context of the conversation you're trying to jump into.
    Maybe then you'll give a productive answer?

    i mean, my answer was pretty productive in terms of warrior backstab.
  • Read the post I quoted. They gave examples of skills that come with anti stagger which counter backstab.
    So I did what you weren't able to do. Respect their knowledge and that they're responding in specific to valk's.

    If it's not painfully obvious that warrior's backstab stuns as I mentioned in my original post and you're imposing this lack of knowledge from your post, what are you even trying to communicate here?

    Warrior's backstab stuns. I get it.

    What's the cooldown on GS vs backstab? You just made a Priest use one of their key skills for survival from doing nothing.
    You're just contradicting your earlier statement of: "besides, a good priest wouldn't have to waste any of their skills. a priest that wastes skills anticipating a backstab is a garbage priest."

    My god. Please. Just stop.
  • MirakaelMirakael ✭✭✭
    Yeah, I agree. I saw a guy who did this. When they were pvping, a slayer vs warr. When the slayer missed his backstab and some stun, he was jumping and trying to get some distance, and when the warr backstabed. The slayer got kd but he got retal so he managed to fight back. Interesting.
  • kknaexkknaex ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Plus Dstance warriors have that counter +backstab thing. Back to old days Warrior have no damage in pvp ppl dont really mind about backstab, but now? Even before revamp, warriors' backstab starts to scare ppl. Yes, u have to guess and burn your iframe, and then a skilled warrior wont fall into that trick, they know your class and estimating the cooldown and watch how awkward u r by failing to predict a backstab. In my opinion, a warrior who wasted his backstab so easily is just not skilled enough.
    Valk, on the other hand, her backstab has a very short delay, and if u have good ping and fast reaction u can iframe it after u see the blink. But even when I was practicing with a friend and intentionally trying to iframe that, I rarely made it. Let along in more complicated situation when u have alot things to consider. I know they will nerf the valk's damage and CD but they probably wont touch the core problem which is the mechanism of their skillset. Valk and Warrior pvp players will be raged as [filtered] if BHS dare to change how backstab works.
    If backstab stun and stagger were not there or replaced with slayer's version in the 1st place, then ppl would still be fine with that. But well, BHS is working on a new MMO now I dont know if they ever will care about Tera's PVP. Now, we have to make jackpot events to make normal players to even play bg, otherwise u q for hours for nothing. 3s? everytime I q, most of them r from FF, come on ppl.
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