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Ideas for improving existing BGs

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Comments

  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    FaytEsteem wrote: »
    I question if the ppl here arguing with Vunak and Gib actually do pvp bg's as a healer.

    I question if you know that there are other roles besides healer class and suggesting to give advantage to a class without making it lose some pros then that lead to more inbalances.

    If you make a half baked sugestion you are not making a suggestion to improve the BG at all but only to improve your own gameplay experience in them.

    Try to think about it and stop to troll each time you post here since you haven't posted a sugestion besides "I need my farmed gear" that is not even a suggestion to improve the BG.

    So far arguing with Vunak is by now the only one that has came to agree with points you don't even acknowlege, I will resume that he has told if you have missed the point of it:

    1. He acknowledge that UNEQ BG won't be fair until each one of the contenders would have the top gear with the top accesories, that leads to think he also acknowledge that master glyps and dyaeds are also part of it. He suggested to make the BGs equalized gear to that top gear and allow players full costumization of the rolls so that way each player can play to their best gameplay style and have more tactical advantages/disadvantages in a BG.
    2. He is trying to explain why he thinks healer classes should be more favored in BGs than other classes and he is pointing examples but is a personal point of view as many of us here has stated also but seems that you don't want to acknowledge that and you were first to start to bait others in a flame war. Sad for you haven't succeded in that, right?
    3. He acknowledge that PvPers shouldn't be punished for not doing hard PvE content for gearing in a PvP match.

    So far you only cares to use your gear because you feel insecure playing with your prefered class in a BG and need some kind of advantage over other players to feel comfortable.

    By now what we are arguing here with Vunak is about why healers shouldn't be near as hard or harder to kill than a tank.

    Tera right now have lots of inmbalances and that revolve around class balances that persist even in BiS but if you don't even know that then of course you will think that playing in BiS will solve everything, right?

    Having healers harder to kill than a tank and not being able to be erased in a combo with a DPS leads to longer skirmish with players respawning non-stop to join a really boring BG that will make anyone to lose interest.

    Right now the only BG you bring to defend your point is only Griddion because I don't see you trying to make your point valid in other BGs and is understandable you don't because your suggestion is not aimed even for FWC and CS.

    Aside from Griddion other BGs have objetives that make them way more tactical than a sandbox of skirmish like Griddion, however you should be careful when saying something if you don't even know how that affects mos of the PvP content in the game.

    All your post have been to try to attack others but not to even defend your point not even to make a clear suggestion for improving BGs so that's why you are not more than a troll as you have called others in this thread.

    Things we need in BGs to catter temporally more players on it are rewards and that is something even I have suggested in this thread but you don't. Here in this thread have been discussed to make a better match making system so the BGs can have more fair comps in each team leading a better player experience but you haven't even pointed that. Here in this thread several people including myself have been discusing to make a revamp on equalized gear that even several of the people that wants uneq bgs have accepted it would be a good thing to do, but you don't even acknowledge that.

    If we read all your post we can see how you don't acknowledge anything mentioned above but keep on the "I need muh gear" "pvpers should to pve content to be in the balance peak of the pvp content" "I die so easy as a healer in eq gear so that is unfair, sob, sob".

    Try to make even a good sugestion before continue to troll at least.
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Here is something that i think you don't get. 1v1 healers are hard to kill with a build for that I agree but in BG if healer go for the build to do the support role as it should be then solo comboed with a dps class should be easy to kill,if a healer dares to enter a BG with the same build for 1v1 then it should be punished because they are not tanks and shouldn't aim to be superhealers and supper resistant to damage, it is not balanced to have a support healer class in a mass pvp that is inmorthal due to be the hardest class to kill (unless you have the best of BiS to counter that healer).

    It is not competitive to make a class a nood class to please noob play. Healers focus are one of the more common strategics in BGs for a team to succed because you know that you will risk being killed in the proccess but if you succed then your team gain a great advantage but if healer will need to be killed by 2 o 3 dps then where does this strategy lies? it is lost complete then Healers become the safe class to play and the most rewarding for the least effort in game, if that would be the case then I would rather then that we can choose our team composition so we can have a 15 healer team vs a mixed class team so you will see who wins.

    Stop clompaining for something that is not anormal from many other "competitive BGs" unless you want Tera to be always a casual game where it would lose even more PvP player base against other games.

    Many old and new MMORPG has been doing things properly to make their game competitive while players in Tera want it to be always a mediocre PvP game experience in BGs.

    3v3 strategy and larger BG strategy are two completely different things. In BGs, the general strategy is to focus healers because you can overwhelm them with relative ease, and its very hard to peel against that type of focus in BGs. Which means in BGs they are being focused by multiple people usually at all times. If they were able to be bursted by one DPS, how balanced would that be when they have a team focusing them down? As it stands right now in equalized, their role is downplayed a lot because they are very easy to kill. You don't need to focus them down as much in TERA because one DPS can keep them locked pretty hard, especially a warrior or another class with a lot of CC capability.

    Edited: Added note, I want to say that BGs are very chaotic in comparison to 3s so it is easier for a healer to slip into the crowd and be lost to perform their role. But when you have proper players that know their roles, like warriors that focus on healers, it is a very one sided fight.

    On the other hand in top rated arenas in any game, your kill target is generally the squishiest DPS class (depending on composition). You keep pressure on the healers so they can't firehose heal, make them burn CDs, keep them CCed/interrupted to keep Healing Done as low as possible and keep up max dps time on their squishiest target. Then when you see a window where CC is ready to push max time again, CDs aren't ready, you burst. Outside of that, its a lucky crit or chain of crits that cause kill target switches.

    So no generally healers are not easy kills for one DPS, because in large BGs and even in smaller scale they are the focus of very intense pressure that they need to be able to not only survive through but be able to heal their team through as well at the same time.
    Borsuc wrote: »
    Contradiction much? Are healers incredibly important, or are they useless in eq gear? Or what am I missing?!? You can't have both. Why is it that 2 DPS vs 1 DPS + 1 healer tend to just give up if healers are so useless in eq gear?
    Depends on the 2 DPS vs 1 DPS + 1 Healer. I know multiple times where I would go in on a healer and a DPS solo let alone with two DPS because I knew I could keep the healer CCed long enough to burst down the opposing DPS. I've even won 3s matches where my DPS and healer died but I was able to pull the win by keeping positioning correct, CCing the healer with sleeps and bursting the DPS behind pillars and picking up motes that my mystic dropped (granted that is before revamp Sorcerer and we could do things like the Spirited Away combo. Not to mention 2 warriors could eat a healer and a DPS for breakfast depending on what the other DPS was, or two Valks, two reapers. That's why games aren't balanced around 1v1 or 2v2 even if those game modes are added.

    And yes, the healing role can be important, but it doesn't mean that they are performing that role well. So it isn't a contradiction. The healing role is an important role to have and important for it to be done correctly. TERA doesn't in equalized. Again, classes that can perform optimally in equalized vs others that are gimped by equalized gear with no recourse.
    Borsuc wrote: »
    @Vunak: I didn't want to quote your post as it's too large and want to avoid quote pyramids, but I did read it. So that said, giga is forgiving since it's a high cooldown skill. Unforgiving means they shouldn't just feel instantly "safe" just because giga is on cooldown, but need to always avoid potential pressure. Similar with DPS peeling/protecting the healer.

    Either way, see the reply to @gib. If healers are so useless, then surely replacing one with a DPS would be favorable in eq gear, right?

    Giga is one CC and that is kind of how it works. You force the opposing team to burn priority CDs like (I feel I need to bold that word since I am not referring to a single skill or scenario here) Giga. When those CDs are refreshing that makes things less stressful and opens up opportunity for your team to land a kill or apply more pressure tipping the match more in your favor. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that they immediately feel "safe". I didn't even use the word safe. It was an example of one CC that you seem to have latched onto in a strawman argument.
    Borsuc wrote: »
    Have you ever done Skyring with 3 DPS? (you can actually queue as 3 DPS, unfortunately no eq gear in premade) I did, for laughs, during EU equalized event -- just to see if "eq gear" is so bad for healers and we could pull off a win. Let's say, it's not very uhm... "viable". Wasn't even close. Sorry. (oh, I've won against most of the teams I faced without a healer, but only when I had a healer/serious composition against them, they weren't anything exceptional, I didn't mean going against the top tier obviously, those I didn't count)

    I guess healers must be pretty strong then, since a DPS replacing them would perform worse. That's what balance ultimately is, not what some people want it to be (healers who don't like it, even though they know they're required and useful)

    Again a strawman argument. That is like arguing that 2 warriors/healer teams would perform way better than others. Some compositions just don't work because they aren't an optimal comp. Even in equalized gear a healer still has a role to play. AGAIN... It doesn't mean they are performing that role optimally against other classes that are performing their roles.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Vunak

    So far I want to resume.

    1. We agreed a eq gear revamp is needed, only thing discused is why would uneq gear would be better or not than a eq gear. I would like to read your opinions based on an overall scene and not only focused on healers as we can see many games have diferent ways for healers to be played and some healers are squishy to be bursted in one second for an enemy and other games they can be as hard to kill as a tank. So I think focusing on healers are not making us progress in the discussion.
    2. I think we agreed that reward for BGs need also a revamp and make them more apealing if uneq gear is going to come to them because is unfair that only PvE content can give the best gear and PvPers that don't want to do PvE content would be always at disadvantage because you won't ever get master glyps, top tier gear; now would be oblit and even deathwrack is something most of PvPers wont be able to get at how drops in BGs are, even PvP jewellery is not accesible for PvPers if they don't run PvE content to get first PvE jewellery, you cannot craft anykind of brooches doing PvP content, even crafting diadem seems something that would take really long for a PvPer, you will never get the best belt in PvP content, you wont never get inners doing PvP content, Now that some people cryed for dragon scales to be removed from BGs jackpots then now PvPers lost their way to get a dragon (you can correct me but I saw draconis procced against bams on FWC) so that would be another disadvantage and right now with the lose of bonanzas PvPers have no means to get semis doing PvP content.
    3. Revamping match makig system so players can get a more fair team comp in each team fighting in a BG.
    4. Class balance should be done more often and properly so an OP class won't be ruling PvP matches for more than a month. It's been 3 months and Valks are way better dps than others still.

    In point 2 I think is the more viable we can discuss as this is the main diference between a player that run PvE content against a player that only run BGs.

    A PvE player would be able to gear up properly faster for PvP doing only PvE content than a PvP player doing BGs, something that is quite funny since it should be the other way around.

    This is the kind of thing I want people don't forget when talking about uneq gear would bring more balance to the BGs, something that is not true until all contenders have maxed all their gear so then we can talk about a more balanced match.
  • gib wrote: »
    a healer's role in 3v3 is incredibly important, but they are essentially useless in eq gear
    gib wrote: »
    if you're running a comp without any form of heals then you are screwing yourself over.

    Well you heard him boys and girls, healers are both useless and important but if you run without one you're screwed.
    gib wrote: »
    if you have a team that is willing to peel for you in a matter of seconds then you will probably succeed. if they don't, you will die

    So I need a teammate who actually knows how to play the game? That's easily solved with equalised team queues.

  • edited August 2017
    I think we have to consider business of EME? Since population of Tera has been highly decreased, they need to earn money. One way to increase their income is not to allow multiple queue but random map rotation on a single queue, because,

    With multi queue, you can select equalized map onlys since you can choose. This will not get EME money. But with random map rotation they could get match in unequalized maps so that it forces people to grind in some degree in order to win in those unequalized maps. This get EME money.

    This cannot be completely P2W because they can get matched in equalized map as well.
  • ElinUsagi wrote: »
    FaytEsteem wrote: »
    I question if the ppl here arguing with Vunak and Gib actually do pvp bg's as a healer.

    I question if you know that there are other roles besides healer class and suggesting to give advantage to a class without making it lose some pros then that lead to more inbalances.

    If you make a half baked sugestion you are not making a suggestion to improve the BG at all but only to improve your own gameplay experience in them.

    Try to think about it and stop to troll each time you post here since you haven't posted a sugestion besides "I need my farmed gear" that is not even a suggestion to improve the BG.

    So far arguing with Vunak is by now the only one that has came to agree with points you don't even acknowlege, I will resume that he has told if you have missed the point of it:

    1. He acknowledge that UNEQ BG won't be fair until each one of the contenders would have the top gear with the top accesories, that leads to think he also acknowledge that master glyps and dyaeds are also part of it. He suggested to make the BGs equalized gear to that top gear and allow players full costumization of the rolls so that way each player can play to their best gameplay style and have more tactical advantages/disadvantages in a BG.
    2. He is trying to explain why he thinks healer classes should be more favored in BGs than other classes and he is pointing examples but is a personal point of view as many of us here has stated also but seems that you don't want to acknowledge that and you were first to start to bait others in a flame war. Sad for you haven't succeded in that, right?
    3. He acknowledge that PvPers shouldn't be punished for not doing hard PvE content for gearing in a PvP match.

    So far you only cares to use your gear because you feel insecure playing with your prefered class in a BG and need some kind of advantage over other players to feel comfortable.

    By now what we are arguing here with Vunak is about why healers shouldn't be near as hard or harder to kill than a tank.

    Tera right now have lots of inmbalances and that revolve around class balances that persist even in BiS but if you don't even know that then of course you will think that playing in BiS will solve everything, right?

    Having healers harder to kill than a tank and not being able to be erased in a combo with a DPS leads to longer skirmish with players respawning non-stop to join a really boring BG that will make anyone to lose interest.

    Right now the only BG you bring to defend your point is only Griddion because I don't see you trying to make your point valid in other BGs and is understandable you don't because your suggestion is not aimed even for FWC and CS.

    Aside from Griddion other BGs have objetives that make them way more tactical than a sandbox of skirmish like Griddion, however you should be careful when saying something if you don't even know how that affects mos of the PvP content in the game.

    All your post have been to try to attack others but not to even defend your point not even to make a clear suggestion for improving BGs so that's why you are not more than a troll as you have called others in this thread.

    Things we need in BGs to catter temporally more players on it are rewards and that is something even I have suggested in this thread but you don't. Here in this thread have been discussed to make a better match making system so the BGs can have more fair comps in each team leading a better player experience but you haven't even pointed that. Here in this thread several people including myself have been discusing to make a revamp on equalized gear that even several of the people that wants uneq bgs have accepted it would be a good thing to do, but you don't even acknowledge that.

    If we read all your post we can see how you don't acknowledge anything mentioned above but keep on the "I need muh gear" "pvpers should to pve content to be in the balance peak of the pvp content" "I die so easy as a healer in eq gear so that is unfair, sob, sob".

    Try to make even a good sugestion before continue to troll at least.

    I love it when you reply back to me everytime I post something. You're the only troll here on the whole entire thread since you're too [filtered], You don't know what I care to do or what I'm even trying to say because I doubt at this point you even read a word I say.

    I said "bg's" that means all the battlegrounds TERA has or can you not break that down?

    Anyways continue replying back to me with your bogus statements because It sure proves to me that you're just full of [filtered].
  • gibgib ✭✭✭
    MiskuChan wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    a healer's role in 3v3 is incredibly important, but they are essentially useless in eq gear
    gib wrote: »
    if you're running a comp without any form of heals then you are screwing yourself over.

    Well you heard him boys and girls, healers are both useless and important but if you run without one you're screwed.
    gib wrote: »
    if you have a team that is willing to peel for you in a matter of seconds then you will probably succeed. if they don't, you will die

    So I need a teammate who actually knows how to play the game? That's easily solved with equalised team queues.

    i think you are just picking and choosing random statements in order to make what im saying invalidated.

    their ROLE is important. have you ever tried doing any form of competitive pvp without healers?? if you have, it's probably because you dont know anyone who is a healer. any and every form of competitive PVP needs a healer to do well, or at least better, than those without a healer.

    but healers are useless in the sense that they can be killed easily with the current equalized gear. what's the point of a healer if you can sneeze on them and they die?

    equalized gear is the issue here. it's complete garbage. everyone is always whining about how classes are imbalanced but i'd argue that equalized gear is more imbalanced than the classes themselves, because the gear allows the classes to become even MORE imbalanced.

    i don't understand why pvp gear was even made in the first place. pvp would benefit 1000x more if everyone was given the same TYPE of gear but allow them to reroll it to whatever they find fit. i can't find a single downside to implementing this over the current situation.

    1) pvp players dont have to do content they dont like or want to do in order to grind for gear they need to do well in.

    2) everyone is given the same opportunity to succeed

    3) they can focus more on balancing classes in equal terms rather than having to take gear into account as well.

    but can you think of a downside? because i can't.


    while we're on the topic, pvp leaderboards seriously need to be brought back. what point is competitive pvp is there is no recognition out of it? when people want to be the best, or are the best, they should be known for it. as is, you can only go by who people say are the best, which isnt reliable.

    "oh but leaderboards lead to toxicity!!!!!!!!!!11!!!" not really. the only drama that can come from leaderboards is competition over who is the best. which is healthy to maintain a good pvp atmosphere.

    "ppl will look down on those lower on the leaderboards!!1!!!" easy enough to fix.

    let's say the leaderboards for 3v3 is like this.

    only the top 100 players are shown on the leaderboard. the baseline for calculating the top 100 is based on the base elo (1000) and only goes up.

    therefore, players who are not as high up as the baseline elo will not be shown in the top 100 and there wont be any drama over that.

    "oh but when ppl see how low ur elo is they will kick u from 3s!!!" its not like that doesnt happen without leaderboards lol


  • BorsucBorsuc ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    gib wrote: »
    i think you're missing what im saying. a healer's role in 3v3 is incredibly important, but they are essentially useless in eq gear. if your team cant peel you in a matter of seconds if you're being focused then you are dead. 3 dps vs a proper team comp will almost always be in favor of the one with the proper team comp.
    How can something be useless and irreplaceable at the same time? This makes no sense.

    useless from dictionary: not fulfilling or not expected to achieve the intended purpose or desired outcome.

    If it doesn't achieve the intended purpose (win) then pick something else than a healer? Except that picking something else doesn't actually achieve the intended purpose either, and has less chances of doing so.

    If you can "sneeze on them and they die" then PICK A DPS and go pick and sneeze on the healer and kill him with 50% more DPS/spike damage? Except you won't be able to, and you know it. Because DPS do more than just damage. They can defend.

    Stop exaggerating with such words because they are simply not true. If they were, nobody would take healers because they'd be dead before they could do anything useful. What's the point of taking a healer who dies instantly instead of a DPS class? There isn't, because a healer doesn't die as fast as you make it out to be. Stop this stupid exaggeration and accept the fact they are balanced.
  • gibgib ✭✭✭
    Borsuc wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    i think you're missing what im saying. a healer's role in 3v3 is incredibly important, but they are essentially useless in eq gear. if your team cant peel you in a matter of seconds if you're being focused then you are dead. 3 dps vs a proper team comp will almost always be in favor of the one with the proper team comp.
    How can something be useless and irreplaceable at the same time? This makes no sense.

    useless from dictionary: not fulfilling or not expected to achieve the intended purpose or desired outcome.

    If it doesn't achieve the intended purpose (win) then pick something else than a healer? Except that picking something else doesn't actually achieve the intended purpose either, and has less chances of doing so.

    "useless" was a bad use of words on my part. i just can't think of a better word to use for their situation. they are irreplaceable up until they get one combo'd. this is not a form of class imbalance, but eq gear imbalance. i've been trying to tie that in since i first began my discussion.

    If you can "sneeze on them and they die" then PICK A DPS and go pick and sneeze on the healer and kill him with 50% more DPS? Except you won't be able to, and you know it. Because DPS do more than just damage. They can defend.

    dps can defend but they cant heal back chip damage from trading with dps that are being healed.
    because a healer doesn't die as fast as you make it out to be. Stop this stupid exaggeration and accept the fact they are balanced[/b

    (they do die incredibly fast to any class with any form of cc and burst dps)

    class balance has no place in what im trying to discuss. class balance doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things when the equalized gear is not even close to balanced. i'll try to break this down for you.

    a warrior in +15 deathwrack. pvp rolled everything to max efficiency.

    a priest in +15 deathwrack. pvp rolled everything to max efficiency.

    these two people are 1v1ing. is the +15 deathwrack warrior going to one combo the priest? probably not. because the gear is balanced to a point where both players have a near equal chance of success.

    now, lets take a look at the equalized gear.

    a warrior in the equalized gear with crystals and glyphs for max efficiency (since rolls are not an option)

    a priest in the equalized gear with crystals and glyphs for max efficiency (since rolls are not an option)

    these two players are 1v1ing. the warrior has a near 99.9% chance of one combo-ing the priest. this is because the gear is wildly imbalanced in the warriors' favor. and this is not okay.

    i hope that this analogy serves its purpose well enough to explain what im trying to say.


  • gib wrote: »
    Borsuc wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    i think you're missing what im saying. a healer's role in 3v3 is incredibly important, but they are essentially useless in eq gear. if your team cant peel you in a matter of seconds if you're being focused then you are dead. 3 dps vs a proper team comp will almost always be in favor of the one with the proper team comp.
    How can something be useless and irreplaceable at the same time? This makes no sense.

    useless from dictionary: not fulfilling or not expected to achieve the intended purpose or desired outcome.

    If it doesn't achieve the intended purpose (win) then pick something else than a healer? Except that picking something else doesn't actually achieve the intended purpose either, and has less chances of doing so.

    "useless" was a bad use of words on my part. i just can't think of a better word to use for their situation. they are irreplaceable up until they get one combo'd. this is not a form of class imbalance, but eq gear imbalance. i've been trying to tie that in since i first began my discussion.

    If you can "sneeze on them and they die" then PICK A DPS and go pick and sneeze on the healer and kill him with 50% more DPS? Except you won't be able to, and you know it. Because DPS do more than just damage. They can defend.

    dps can defend but they cant heal back chip damage from trading with dps that are being healed.
    because a healer doesn't die as fast as you make it out to be. Stop this stupid exaggeration and accept the fact they are balanced[/b

    (they do die incredibly fast to any class with any form of cc and burst dps)

    class balance has no place in what im trying to discuss. class balance doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things when the equalized gear is not even close to balanced. i'll try to break this down for you.

    a warrior in +15 deathwrack. pvp rolled everything to max efficiency.

    a priest in +15 deathwrack. pvp rolled everything to max efficiency.

    these two people are 1v1ing. is the +15 deathwrack warrior going to one combo the priest? probably not. because the gear is balanced to a point where both players have a near equal chance of success.

    now, lets take a look at the equalized gear.

    a warrior in the equalized gear with crystals and glyphs for max efficiency (since rolls are not an option)

    a priest in the equalized gear with crystals and glyphs for max efficiency (since rolls are not an option)

    these two players are 1v1ing. the warrior has a near 99.9% chance of one combo-ing the priest. this is because the gear is wildly imbalanced in the warriors' favor. and this is not okay.

    i hope that this analogy serves its purpose well enough to explain what im trying to say.


    This I agree to. I noticed in all battlegrounds for priests and mystics that our gear is like literal paper. Valks can almost one shot a priest with just Dream Slash and and class that does burst or cc damage can kill a healer or a cloth like it is nothing. I feel like people should go back to what they used to somewhat do: Peel. EME could also give healers a heal increase/defense increase (not much but enough to not be paper).
  • gib wrote: »
    they are irreplaceable up until they get one combo'd

    So they're like every other class in 3's then?
    gib wrote: »
    equalized gear is not even close to balanced

    No one said it's balanced, you're repeatedly ignoring the fact that what we're saying is that it's preferable to the current dead queues and unequal fights that happen. Full +15 isn't an achievable goal for most people, and therefore full +15 people will stomp everyone before them.

    That's why everyone stopped queuing for these bgs the day +15 arrived.

    The opposite is true for equalised gear, everyone started queuing the day solo queue was equalised and the day tera EU equalised their team 3's. Then they stopped when it was unequalised again.
    gib wrote: »
    these two players are 1v1ing. the warrior has a near 99.9% chance of one combo-ing the priest

    No it doesn't, you're just a bad priest.

  • gib wrote: »
    Borsuc wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    i think you're missing what im saying. a healer's role in 3v3 is incredibly important, but they are essentially useless in eq gear. if your team cant peel you in a matter of seconds if you're being focused then you are dead. 3 dps vs a proper team comp will almost always be in favor of the one with the proper team comp.
    How can something be useless and irreplaceable at the same time? This makes no sense.

    useless from dictionary: not fulfilling or not expected to achieve the intended purpose or desired outcome.

    If it doesn't achieve the intended purpose (win) then pick something else than a healer? Except that picking something else doesn't actually achieve the intended purpose either, and has less chances of doing so.

    "useless" was a bad use of words on my part. i just can't think of a better word to use for their situation. they are irreplaceable up until they get one combo'd. this is not a form of class imbalance, but eq gear imbalance. i've been trying to tie that in since i first began my discussion.

    If you can "sneeze on them and they die" then PICK A DPS and go pick and sneeze on the healer and kill him with 50% more DPS? Except you won't be able to, and you know it. Because DPS do more than just damage. They can defend.

    dps can defend but they cant heal back chip damage from trading with dps that are being healed.
    because a healer doesn't die as fast as you make it out to be. Stop this stupid exaggeration and accept the fact they are balanced[/b

    (they do die incredibly fast to any class with any form of cc and burst dps)

    class balance has no place in what im trying to discuss. class balance doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things when the equalized gear is not even close to balanced. i'll try to break this down for you.

    a warrior in +15 deathwrack. pvp rolled everything to max efficiency.

    a priest in +15 deathwrack. pvp rolled everything to max efficiency.

    these two people are 1v1ing. is the +15 deathwrack warrior going to one combo the priest? probably not. because the gear is balanced to a point where both players have a near equal chance of success.

    now, lets take a look at the equalized gear.

    a warrior in the equalized gear with crystals and glyphs for max efficiency (since rolls are not an option)

    a priest in the equalized gear with crystals and glyphs for max efficiency (since rolls are not an option)

    these two players are 1v1ing. the warrior has a near 99.9% chance of one combo-ing the priest. this is because the gear is wildly imbalanced in the warriors' favor. and this is not okay.

    i hope that this analogy serves its purpose well enough to explain what im trying to say.


    Agreed, I've seen too many matches in fwc where a warrior can solo 1 healer.
  • gibgib ✭✭✭
    MiskuChan wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    they are irreplaceable up until they get one combo'd

    So they're like every other class in 3's then?
    no... because not every class can get one combo'd like healers can.
    gib wrote: »
    equalized gear is not even close to balanced
    MiskuChan wrote:
    No one said it's balanced, you're repeatedly ignoring the fact that what we're saying is that it's preferable to the current dead queues and unequal fights that happen. Full +15 isn't an achievable goal for most people, and therefore full +15 people will stomp everyone before them.

    i'm not ignoring that fact. this thread is for ideas for improving the existing battlegrounds. the BEST idea (at least in my and others' opinions) is to get rid of usage of PvPvE gear and PVP gear in general in exchange for truly equalized gear for all PVPers.

    i completely agree that full +15 people will stomp everyone without +15. that's why gear in pvp is bullshlt. everyone should have an equal chance of success. that is the meaning of equalized.

    MiskuChan wrote:
    The opposite is true for equalised gear, everyone started queuing the day solo queue was equalised and the day tera EU equalised their team 3's. Then they stopped when it was unequalised again.

    everyone started queuing for equalized soloqueue because it was a better alternative than having to grind for weeks upon weeks to do uneq soloqueue. do you think everyone wants to grind? it was a preferable alternative to having to spend weeks to get gear just to compete with those who already had it. but does that make equalized gear better than +15 BiS gear? no it doesn't. it's just a quicker and easier alternative.

    gib wrote: »
    these two players are 1v1ing. the warrior has a near 99.9% chance of one combo-ing the priest
    MiskuChan wrote:
    No it doesn't, you're just a bad priest.

    you're joking yourself and everyone else here if you think that in an equalized 1v1 as it is a warrior won't one-combo the priest.
  • gib wrote: »
    no... because not every class can get one combo'd like healers can.

    You're right, it's far easier to kill any other class than it is a healer with a 10 second GS, 40k kaias and pillar hugging etc.
    gib wrote: »
    everyone started queuing for equalized soloqueue because it was a better alternative than having to grind for weeks upon weeks to do uneq soloqueue. do you think everyone wants to grind? it was a preferable alternative to having to spend weeks to get gear just to compete with those who already had it.

    You're finally starting to understand, now understand this.

    In 5 years

    5 years

    5 years

    5 years

    5 years

    The only significant change they made to equalised gear was scaling it up to level 65 abilities and stopping reapers from being able to blacksmith hammerstrike people in solo queue.

    That's it.

    So asking for a rework of equalised gear to BHS of all people is stupid to the point of hilarity, they will never do it especially in the current state PvP is in. The only feasible way forward is to start with equalising with the current gear, which is actually something EME can do themselves.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    gib wrote: »
    (they do die incredibly fast to any class with any form of cc and burst dps)

    class balance has no place in what im trying to discuss. class balance doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things when the equalized gear is not even close to balanced. i'll try to break this down for you.

    a warrior in +15 deathwrack. pvp rolled everything to max efficiency.

    a priest in +15 deathwrack. pvp rolled everything to max efficiency.

    these two people are 1v1ing. is the +15 deathwrack warrior going to one combo the priest? probably not. because the gear is balanced to a point where both players have a near equal chance of success.

    now, lets take a look at the equalized gear.

    a warrior in the equalized gear with crystals and glyphs for max efficiency (since rolls are not an option)

    a priest in the equalized gear with crystals and glyphs for max efficiency (since rolls are not an option)

    these two players are 1v1ing. the warrior has a near 99.9% chance of one combo-ing the priest. this is because the gear is wildly imbalanced in the warriors' favor. and this is not okay.

    i hope that this analogy serves its purpose well enough to explain what im trying to say.

    I think this is the main issue in the discussion, people should stop thinking as a 1v1 a battleground don't need healers to be able to takedown a warrior becuase they have the same chance of success in 1v1, that would make healers broken again and then again, if a healer is capable to success 1v1 vs a warrior then why the heck with need dps in the first place? then better for a full priest comp or a priest + tank comp rather to have dps that will never be able to takedown healers.

    So we can have a really good PvP BG experience we need to make evident the advantages and disadvantages from each class in that enviroment and if one support healer class can heal, debuff, buff cc and make a 1v1 to get rid of the oponent who is harrassing him then that is a broken class.

    Healers don't need +15 for a battleground, what they need is stun reductions and debuff from brooches, if that were added to the equalized gear then hearles would have it better and won't be inmorthal as +15 make them.

    One thing that makes people confuse the current state of healers in BGs is that there is bad team comp in several games and also players who doesn't care at all about team play, then healers have if awfull when they are in the team that doesn't care about team play and that should be punished with wipes and defeat.
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