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Ideas for improving existing BGs

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Comments

  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    • Bring back old FWC where capping points and defending points was much more meaningful. FWC today is just whoever has the better zerg now rather than who has the better team.
    • Make gear progression through PvP be an actual viable option without needing to do PvE content.
    • Unequalize FWC (best solution as it actually gives a reason to gear as a PvPer) or add stun reduction on earrings for equalized gear
    • Bring back leaderboards
    • Give legitimate rewards for all participants in CU based on their ranking
    There are so many other things that could be said about CU that could breathe new life into that form of PvP. Reduce the tower HP and player defense/attack on repeat winners for example.

    Something En Masse can do without needing BHS at all. Host Canyon Clash and Skyring Slam tournaments again.
  • xoBarbxoBarb ✭✭✭
    Vunak wrote: »
    There are so many other things that could be said about CU that could breathe new life into that form of PvP. Reduce the tower HP and player defense/attack on repeat winners for example.

    Towers can already be burned extremely fast - the second point would just promote guild hopping and would be easily abused

  • BorsucBorsuc ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    Vunak wrote: »
    Host Canyon Clash and Skyring Slam tournaments again.
    The problem with these is that they're a temporary thing. I mean, they have to be temporary, but at least give people access to play them in the meantime (which is what B&S for example does with arena, at least in KR and regions where it has actual esport tournaments). Skyring Slam would be like B&S's actual tournaments, but you can't just throw in tournaments and call yourself an esport. You need to foster a community outside the tournaments but how can you do that when you don't have the tournament experience in the game?

    Now of course people will say that PvP doesn't need to be esport-viable to be good or improved or fun, but the fact of the matter is that, at least for competitive genres and modes (like Skyring is), esport-viability is a measurement of how good the PvP is, because good PvP design can lead to esports not the other way around. So you can just take it as a sign of that. (note by "good" I don't mean what some people's opinion of good is, I'm sure a lot of people find many PvP esport games "garbage", but the fact of the matter is to be popular means a lot of people must like it, even if you don't; for TERA it doesn't matter if you personally like it or not, in its current state it will never come even close and that is a statistical fact not an opinion)
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    Borsuc wrote: »
    Vunak wrote: »
    Host Canyon Clash and Skyring Slam tournaments again.
    The problem with these is that they're a temporary thing. I mean, they have to be temporary, but at least give people access to play them in the meantime (which is what B&S for example does with arena, at least in KR and regions where it has actual esport tournaments). Skyring Slam would be like B&S's actual tournaments, but you can't just throw in tournaments and call yourself an esport. You need to foster a community outside the tournaments but how can you do that when you don't have the tournament experience in the game?

    Now of course people will say that PvP doesn't need to be esport-viable to be good or improved or fun, but the fact of the matter is that, at least for competitive genres and modes (like Skyring is), esport-viability is a measurement of how good the PvP is, because good PvP design can lead to esports not the other way around. So you can just take it as a sign of that. (note by "good" I don't mean what some people's opinion of good is, I'm sure a lot of people find many PvP esport games "garbage", but the fact of the matter is to be popular means a lot of people must like it, even if you don't; for TERA it doesn't matter if you personally like it or not, in its current state it will never come even close and that is a statistical fact not an opinion)

    There are extremely popular MMOs that were some of the best PvP MMOs to exist that didn't foster an ESport environment, DAoC for example. That is the father of PvP MMOs. That is a fact. Most MMOs that include PvP draw inspiration from DAoC because of that. Even TERA, even GW2, even WoW, Everquest 2, WAR, SWTOR, BnS. Just about every MMO that has PvP in them has taken inspiration from DAoC.. FFXIV. So saying ESports are a measurement of how good your PvP is, is asinine.

    Being popular doesn't mean your game is E-Sport viable. GW2 is a testament to that. They are a very popular game, they tried to incorporate E-Sports. They pushed and pushed for it. They have the game modes to support it, they have the population and development team to support it. Yet their partners dropped them because it didn't work.

    There is a lot more to ESport viability than popularity and ability. GW2 is a hard game to follow if you have never played the game. MMOs in general are hard games to follow if you have never played them. Which is a large cause for why they don't work well with ESports. CS:Go, LoL, DOTA, Super Smash. All of those are really easy to follow even if you have never played them. You can easily understand whats going on in them. Making them viable to have an audience watch them without having to have a deep understanding of them. The reason BnS works as an ESport is because of that reason. It is designed almost like a Fighting game when you watch it. It is easy to follow.

    The point of Skyring Slam and Canyon Clash in TERA isn't about fostering an ESport community. Its about giving PvP players something to look forward to every year or so. To bring attention to an underdeveloped part of the game. It was fun for the community to watch and participate in.

    xoBarb wrote: »
    Towers can already be burned extremely fast - the second point would just promote guild hopping and would be easily abused

    I didn't say it couldn't be exploited. There would obviously need to be more thought into how to do it. The problem with CU as a larger system is that it is only really viable for the largest guilds on whatever server to really do anything in. The very first CU was by far the funnest. It had the most people doing it, there were fights happening everywhere not just at the top guilds towers. When people realized their time was better spent in a FWC or in a Dungeon because they had no chance in hell to ever get first place, that population dwindled extremely quickly.

    Now if on that first CU players/guilds received some decent stuff for themselves and their guild for that time spent, that population that was in the first CU may have stayed a lot longer and kept it populated when it happened. Add in the chance that perhaps a smaller guild has the ability to compete against the bigger guilds because they are being debuffed for wining constantly that adds the underdog victory scheme to the mix that people love.
  • LancerJivaLancerJiva ✭✭✭✭✭
    1 - Remove premades: It's quite unfair when you get stacked teams. Make it so a maximum of 2 people can queue in a party for CS / FWC

    2 - Remove HP pots and minuscule amounts of feedstock from victory boxes. Getting that is like getting slapped in the face when you worked so hard for the win.

    3 - Remove dragon scales and feedstock from jackpots. We want VM mats, not dragon scales or feedstock.
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    Borsuc wrote: »
    Vunak wrote: »
    Host Canyon Clash and Skyring Slam tournaments again.
    The problem with these is that they're a temporary thing. I mean, they have to be temporary, but at least give people access to play them in the meantime (which is what B&S for example does with arena, at least in KR and regions where it has actual esport tournaments). Skyring Slam would be like B&S's actual tournaments, but you can't just throw in tournaments and call yourself an esport. You need to foster a community outside the tournaments but how can you do that when you don't have the tournament experience in the game?

    Now of course people will say that PvP doesn't need to be esport-viable to be good or improved or fun, but the fact of the matter is that, at least for competitive genres and modes (like Skyring is), esport-viability is a measurement of how good the PvP is, because good PvP design can lead to esports not the other way around. So you can just take it as a sign of that. (note by "good" I don't mean what some people's opinion of good is, I'm sure a lot of people find many PvP esport games "garbage", but the fact of the matter is to be popular means a lot of people must like it, even if you don't; for TERA it doesn't matter if you personally like it or not, in its current state it will never come even close and that is a statistical fact not an opinion)

    There are plenty of PvP MMOs that were popular and had amazing PvP that didn't have E-Sports. DAoC for example was one of the best PvP MMOs there ever was. The father of PvP MMOs. That is a fact. Most of the MMOs today draw inspiration from that game because it was so good. WoW, GW2, BnS, EQ2 etc. So saying E-Sports is a measurement of h ow good a games PvP is, is asinine...FFXIV. The only MMO that has ever had a truly successful E-Sports community is BnS.

    There is a lot more to having a successful E-Sports than popularity and ability. GW2 is a testament to this. They have a large population. They have the PvP modes to support it. They have a development team that has tried and tried and tried to push E-Sports, but it doesn't work. So much so that their E-Sport partnership was dropped. CS:GO, SuperSmash, Dota, LoL they are all easy to follow. You don't have to have a deep understanding of the games mechanics to understand what is going on. GW2 is very convoluted for people that have never played it. BnS does well in the E-Sports environment because its PvP is built almost like a fighting game for the audience. It is easy to follow and understand.

    As for TERA. The point of Skyring Slam and Canyon Clash isn't to foster an E-Sports environment. It is to bring attention to the PvP community, give them something to look forward to every year or so and it was fun for the community to watch and participate in.

    I had a lot more written, but the forums decided to gobble it up and not save it.

    xoBarb wrote: »

    Towers can already be burned extremely fast - the second point would just promote guild hopping and would be easily abused

    I never said it couldn't be exploited or that there was deep thought process behind that one example. It would obviously need more in-depth discussion. CU's larger system flaw is in that only the largest guilds on the server can really accomplish anything. By far the funnest CU was the first one (the first one that worked) where it was largely populated. There were fights happening all over the map, not just on the largest guilds towers. But when people realized they had no chance in hell of winning and their time was better spent in FWC or in a dungeon because there was nothing there for the time they spent in CU they abandoned it.

    Add in the ability for people to actually receive things for their time spent/participation especially since its only a once a week thing. Add in systems that allow smaller guilds - medium sized guilds to actually compete and CU would likely become more populated again similar to how it was the first few weeks.
  • xoBarbxoBarb ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    Vunak wrote: »
    xoBarb wrote: »

    Towers can already be burned extremely fast - the second point would just promote guild hopping and would be easily abused

    I never said it couldn't be exploited or that there was deep thought process behind that one example. It would obviously need more in-depth discussion. CU's larger system flaw is in that only the largest guilds on the server can really accomplish anything. By far the funnest CU was the first one (the first one that worked) where it was largely populated. There were fights happening all over the map, not just on the largest guilds towers. But when people realized they had no chance in [filtered] of winning and their time was better spent in FWC or in a dungeon because there was nothing there for the time they spent in CU they abandoned it.

    Add in the ability for people to actually receive things for their time spent/participation especially since its only a once a week thing. Add in systems that allow smaller guilds - medium sized guilds to actually compete and CU would likely become more populated again similar to how it was the first few weeks.

    There was a quiet recent change that we didn't get notes for but it is present and has been active for just over the past month.

    Adjusted treasury rewards
    First place—50% of treasury balance
    Second place—30% of treasury balance
    Third place—10% of treasury balance
    Fourth and Fifth Place—5% of treasury balance
    Added ranking rewards
    Players who rank from 1–20 now receive reward boxes.
    Players must participate in a significant portion of the event to receive reward boxes.
    Guild members who do not directly participate in Civil Unrest: Velika will not receive rewards.
    Modified the rules for ranking determination
    Destroying enemy towers improves your ranking.
    Keeping your tower’s HP high improves your ranking.
    Enemies killed by your guild improve your ranking.
    Length of time your tower survives improves your ranking

    (https://board.tera.gameforge.com/index.php/Thread/68183-Patch-Notes-57-03-–-Vergos’s-Revenge-04-07-2017/?postID=870655)

    LancerJiva wrote: »
    1 - Remove premades: It's quite unfair when you get stacked teams. Make it so a maximum of 2 people can queue in a party for CS / FWC

    Premades generally have longer qs because they preemptively get matched against other premades, why punish people who want to q with their friends - It's quite frustrating being extremely dependent on your teammates expecially with the matchmaking RNG system we have where one game you can get, No Tanks, No Priests and 4 Mystics in hardy niveots vs a team that has a perfect FWC/CS comp.
  • - For corsairs stronghold, it would be great to give airships more health, so that they die with 1 more shot. This would make airship assaults more viable and not just for last ditch strategies.

    - Bringing back level 30 corsairs stronghold would increase the popularity of the game. To level the playing field, players below level 65 could temporarily get specific niveot crystals.

    - Remove the barriers that prevents the inner tank from getting in. It can be easily glitched to block the inner gate, so it is unfair to the team who does not know how to perform this trick.

    - Slightly increasing the range of the tower turrets behind the outer gate would help give it more of a use to fend off the enemy team.

    - I agree that increasing the damage produced by the bombs would be a great idea (perhaps to 70,000 damage). This could potentially stave off extremely powerful inner gate pushes with no hope for the enemy team to assemble against their attack.

    - Make corsairs stronghold not so restricted. An 8 minute base time essentially forces an outer gate or a mid capture at the start. Giving 10 minutes base time would incentivise ninja ladder raids or airship attacks that if failed, would not spell the end of the raids efforts for which they can retry another tactic. The gates should give a minute extra time rather than 2 minutes, with mid staying at 3 minutes extra time.

    - Give the captain of the raid an additional reward for winning. This will greatly increase the number of raid leaders, for which there isnt many who are confident

    - If I was to really push it, perhaps we could give the tunnels in the game a use. Perhaps the tunnels would open after the anchorstone is partially damaged (eg. about 30%), but to get in, is blocked by a gate roughly 10% of outer gate's health. This could make ninja ladder pushes a viable strategy when planning for the raid. These tunnels however, can be easily guarded as the enemy team can be spotted from the map the moment they go inside.

    Some ideas I believe would make cs more fun and popular!
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    xoBarb wrote: »

    There was a quiet recent change that we didn't get notes for but it is present and has been active for just over the past month.

    Adjusted treasury rewards
    First place—50% of treasury balance
    Second place—30% of treasury balance
    Third place—10% of treasury balance
    Fourth and Fifth Place—5% of treasury balance
    Added ranking rewards
    Players who rank from 1–20 now receive reward boxes.
    Players must participate in a significant portion of the event to receive reward boxes.
    Guild members who do not directly participate in Civil Unrest: Velika will not receive rewards.
    Modified the rules for ranking determination
    Destroying enemy towers improves your ranking.
    Keeping your tower’s HP high improves your ranking.
    Enemies killed by your guild improve your ranking.
    Length of time your tower survives improves your ranking

    (https://board.tera.gameforge.com/index.php/Thread/68183-Patch-Notes-57-03-–-Vergos’s-Revenge-04-07-2017/?postID=870655)

    That is definitely a step in the right direction for bringing back a population in CU. I haven't played in a few months so I am a bit behind and I don't generally check the EU patch notes either so that's why I missed them. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
  • BorsucBorsuc ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    @Vunak: I didn't mean that E-sports "make" a good PvP game. Rather, if it does have E-sports, it means its PvP is done right (even if some of us think it's garbage, people have different opinions so that's natural). It's a measurement, but it's not the only one. You gauge the game's interest in PvP and a proper PvP setup if it has esports. Of course if it doesn't have esports, it does not mean that the PvP in the game is terrible or bad. But it doesn't mean it's good either; so it's a simple gauge. It could be good without esports, but I doubt that any game with esports has bad PvP (objectively bad), so the other way around doesn't apply. You won't likely see hours long queues and such for those games, unlike in TERA. (again it doesn't mean a game lacking esports will necessarily have hours long queues, but there's no guarantee)

    As for, Skyring Slam, it would be perfect for an esport setting, it has everything it needs for that setup -- including good viewability/watchability. Personally, much more fun to watch TERA Skyring PvP than GW2, so I'm a bit triggered due to BHS's decisions.
  • xoBarbxoBarb ✭✭✭
    LancerJiva wrote: »
    1 - Remove premades: It's quite unfair when you get stacked teams. Make it so a maximum of 2 people can queue in a party for CS / FWC

    Premades that queue corsairs/fwc generally have longer queues because they get matched against other premades. Why punish players that wan't to queue with friends or want to group queue to avoid the dreadful matchmaking system where you can get games with, No Tanks, No Priests, Players in PVE crystals or no crystals at all.
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    Borsuc wrote: »
    @Vunak: I didn't mean that E-sports "make" a good PvP game. Rather, if it does have E-sports, it means its PvP is done right (even if some of us think it's garbage, people have different opinions so that's natural). It's a measurement, but it's not the only one. You gauge the game's interest in PvP and a proper PvP setup if it has esports. Of course if it doesn't have esports, it does not mean that the PvP in the game is terrible or bad. But it doesn't mean it's good either; so it's a simple gauge. It could be good without esports, but I doubt that any game with esports has bad PvP (objectively bad), so the other way around doesn't apply. You won't likely see hours long queues and such for those games, unlike in TERA. (again it doesn't mean a game lacking esports will necessarily have hours long queues, but there's no guarantee)

    As for, Skyring Slam, it would be perfect for an esport setting, it has everything it needs for that setup -- including good viewability/watchability. Personally, much more fun to watch TERA Skyring PvP than GW2, so I'm a bit triggered due to BHS's decisions.

    Oh I agree. TERA has the ability to become a great game to watch and dedicate to E-Sports. Its just unfortunate that TERAs PvP for whatever reason was abandoned. The old Skyring and Canyon Clashes are an example of that, they were very watchable and enjoyable. If they had facilitated an environment for E-Sports in TERA to flourish it likely would have.

    I don't necessarily think that the PvP systems and PvP in general of TERA had anything to do with its "failure" in regards to being a popular PvP MMO similar to BnS. Rather a lack of every other system in TERA being generic or very badly implemented. Had TERA kept the combat system it has now and created an interesting starting experience with more than simple dungeons at endgame to do. Actually done a lot for optimization to allow for a smooth experience early on, it is very likely TERA would be a very different and a decently popular MMO today.
  • JXE5356AKEJXE5356AKE ✭✭✭
    LancerJiva wrote: »
    1 - Remove premades: It's quite unfair when you get stacked teams. Make it so a maximum of 2 people can queue in a party for CS / FWC

    2 - Remove HP pots and minuscule amounts of feedstock from victory boxes. Getting that is like getting slapped in the face when you worked so hard for the win.

    3 - Remove dragon scales and feedstock from jackpots. We want VM mats, not dragon scales or feedstock.

    I actually queue for the scales and feedstock. I don't need VM mats since i do both pve and pvp.
  • LancerJivaLancerJiva ✭✭✭✭✭
    > @xoBarb said:
    > LancerJiva wrote: »
    >
    > 1 - Remove premades: It's quite unfair when you get stacked teams. Make it so a maximum of 2 people can queue in a party for CS / FWC
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Premades that queue corsairs/fwc generally have longer queues because they get matched against other premades. Why punish players that wan't to queue with friends or want to group queue to avoid the dreadful matchmaking system where you can get games with, No Tanks, No Priests, Players in PVE crystals or no crystals at all.

    I queue with one other person and still get matched against full premades, thus this makes your statement not true.
  • TheDarkWanTheDarkWan ✭✭✭
    I want gear to be dropped like dungeons after PG, no more scrolls then mats gathering. Just after a PG is done we roll on weapon or foot or glove or chest box and other PG's can drop accessories. I have always wanted to have pvp sides to my characters but the grind is too much and when u have over 15 characters it's just spirit breaking. @Spacecats thank you for opening this thread.
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