Damage Meters

edited August 12 in Game Suggestions
I personally think having Damage Meters as an actual game feature due to the only possible way of getting one of these is to use Third Party Applications, and as this is against the rules. I think that it should be a function that should be implemented into the game, due to so many people wanting these and there's many good reasons for it..

Like being able to see your damage within a Dungeon, as there's no way to see that at all, it would also be good just in general, questing, PvPing Etc.

If you think this would be a good this would be for Tera, drop some feed back as all the feedback shows them how much we need this :)
If you like this idea, how would you use it? what would you like to see and how often would you use it!

Comments

  • I agree that damage meters serve a nice purpose of benchmarking skill across players and dungeon runs. If 3rd party apps are an issue reinstate score runs/skycastles...especially since BRHM just came back, and Skycruiser endeavor stayed in the dungeon list for so long, and came back as a challenge dungeon, which I never see LFGs for
  • voidyvoidy ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13
    This is a great idea that will never happen. A while back there was a Q&A thing done with one of the game's developers in Korea, as part of some devnotes thing. I can't remember the dude or the name of the document, but it was an interview done around the time Harrowhold was about to come out for the first time. This dev was hyping it hard, you could tell he was happy about the dungeon. Anyway, at some point in that interview he was asked about DPS meters and basically said that they would never be a thing because they didn't fit the team-based theme of the game, and made people more focused on numbers instead of being team players. While I won't say I've never seen that occur, I think he's wrong to straight up not give us the option for even a single personalized meter that just shows our own damage, because ... well, let's be real here. This game doesn't offer a lot of content at a single given time. Having a measuring stick for one's damage is like a high score that motivates players to try a dungeon again to improve; it gives Tera the replayability and depth that it so desperately needs to stay entertaining after players have done the same dungeon a dozen times for a [filtered] reward.

    Then you have the issue of class guides. Look at all the guides we have filled with charts and in depth information about which skills are optimal, which skills do a really specific percentage of your total DPS, etc etc. I don't want to generalize, but I think it's safe to say that every recent and good guide about this game has used dps meters to gather their information. I don't think there's anything wrong with this, but clearly bluehole thinks they're the devil and EME will ban people for using them now. It's just another thing that could've given this game life, that the dumbass devs cut down.
  • I think that addressing this subject isn't practical due to the legal terms of use. But more importantly, addressing this subject is not really necessary. For one, DPS meters exist and are being used, imo, probably by just about everyone, including the people that write DPS guides, and including people on the player council. I cant even estimate how many people would stop playing, if third party software was really such a huge "game breaking" problem for the game devs. Ive said this in other places: if they really got more into killing the software usage, as they are obligated to state, then they would effectively kill the game. I believe they know this.

    Our feedback are things they already know, and its more then likely that EME are probably powerless to support this openly. You can also say the same argument over side-client solutions to reduce ping, as well as various optimizations to fix FPS issues. EME knows this, everyone knows about these things, but officially they have to continue barking at this tree. Its they're job. "Keeping up appearances", if you will. They have to advocate the terms of use, even if some might not agree with all of them.

    P.S:
    There is a system tab that calculates you're damage for you. Its a nasty, but theirs that too.
  • BjondBjond ✭✭
    This isn't the first recent game where I've seen devs say "we don't like the negative effects of public DPS meters". Makes me wonder what's happening in those games that do permit it; eg. I've not played WoW since release. Of course it had a DPS meter (as an add-on, iirc), but back then peeps just used it as an analysis tool for both self and raid improvement. Have things gone seriously south there with low-dps people being punted from guilds, ridiculed, ostracized, etc.?? We just used it to coach back then, but if it's gone off-the-rails toxic, I could see devs not wanting that in their game.

    IMHO, log parsing is essential for not only improving your own play, but your team's as well. I've lead raids since EQ1 and parsing has always been a vital tool for figuring out what we're doing wrong and where we might want to improve. More importantly, how do you manage to test and debug an MMO without accurate metrics!? If BHS doesn't have a accurate tool that puts every 3rd party tool to shame, they're incompetent. It may not be in a form that is amenable to player-use, but I'd be utterly shocked if they don't have and use one in-house.

    Metrics are so important in a game like this, I'd have an API dedicated to it. And, considering the willingness of the community to code for me, I'd polish up the API, publish it, and say "go for it, just don't even think about bullying people over metrics".
  • StitchedSoulStitchedSoul ✭✭
    edited August 24
    This is what I thought about: How they can make people stop insult others by their numbers? Make it "read-only"? Doesn't bother myself a lot as I watch carefully what numbers I give but just curious.

    Edit: The question poped up after the news from EU Tera that BHS thinks of cresting their own dps meter. It's has no any date of implementation but community manager told its in plans.
  • Yes I'm about that. So this means that they either go against their rule of team work in dung or have ideas how to keep it AND give to ppl dmg meters?
  • StevenAnthonyStevenAnthony ✭✭✭✭
    banana to al cheetos
  • Bjond wrote: »
    This isn't the first recent game where I've seen devs say "we don't like the negative effects of public DPS meters". Makes me wonder what's happening in those games that do permit it; eg. I've not played WoW since release. Of course it had a DPS meter (as an add-on, iirc), but back then peeps just used it as an analysis tool for both self and raid improvement....

    WoW has gone to (...) ever since proper DPS meters.

    For progression encounters I can see the use, but people are quickly moving from analyzing the problem to 'assigning blame' to people with 'low' DPS.

    Sad thing is that in the old days such a 'problem' would have been solved by putting in a guild effort to get this person the best crafted gear, so their DPS could be better. These days you get called names and blamed for 'ruining THEIR raid time'. And of course despite there being a guild, this person is left to their own devices to 'go solve' it.

    And then we're not even mentioning tanks that rage quit mid-dungeon because they cannot be bothered to 'carry this party' when they see some DPS is lower than theirs. Note that this happens while there is no problem whatsoever killing stuff.

    TL:DR; DPS Meters break more than they bring.



  • Damage meters would be helpful for new players too, not just giving motivation to repeat dungeons / improvement at endgame.

    New players would be able to experiment leveling and see how they compare from the get-go. It would help players realize faster that backcrits and appropriate crystal truly are useful. In 417s, there still are players who pop up with full pounding, and it is not infrequently that they are told off / kicked from the group. If a dps meter were implemented, these players would be able to see that their dmg is lower than others. Rather than changing when they got yelled at by enough people, they would see quickly that their dmg wasn't similar, and from there they could inspect others, choose to listen to the recommended crystals on the log in, ask others ect.

    Often a reaction to wanting dmg meters is *but people will be mean*. Unfortunately, when dungeon runs go south, they already are. The damage meter would just be a tool for the players they were being mean to to understand if they are correct and make changes. Instead of fighting, there would be a clear read of how well a player did and they could choose to use that to improve. Doing so would improve their gaming experience from then on out. Instead of doing a bunch of dungeons, people getting annoyed when there wasn't a carry, eventually realizing they need to change they could just see the read out on the damage meter.
    Players who struggle moving into endgame would have a much clearer way to improve themselves to be able to do higher dungeons.
    Players who may never quite realize they need to actively try to improve and who trickle off would now see where they stand and can act off that.
    I think it would actually help player retention at 65.
    Alternatively, were the player actually doing alright, the damage meter would show it and thus could even prevent conflict. We can still see gear, so differences in damage from that in lower dungeons would be understandable. It would also help with language barrier issues ect. a player who might not be able to communicate with people in IMs could still understand numbers on the dmg meter / inspect for crystals.

    I played on another, smaller MMO with a damage meter (not WoW) and yes sometimes there were people using the dmg meter to say another player wasn't doing well. But guess what - you could see gear, that player was in fact not doing well, and the damage meter allowed them to see that and improve. And they could use the dmg meter as a tool to do so. It is pretty easy to excuse low dmg from gear, and realize if the gear is the same, then there is another factor to consider.
    Furthermore, a significant portion of those who were doing the very highest dungeons used it to post what they consider ideal skill usages to help others see what they could change / aim for. The damage meter gave legitimacy to their suggestions and served as a way to pass on information on improving one's gameplay.
    As for teamwork - a player who doesn't do mechanics to the detriment of the team is still going to be noticed and reprimanded. Having high damage doesn't counteract wipes. I don't really think the argument that a damage meter would make it less focused on one's team is really a strong one. Lethal mechanics are always prioritized above damage, and with the way tera works, very few classes directly contribute to other's damage, aside valk's long cd skill and lancer. But even so, on this game there were 'support' dps classes, and despite the damage meter they would focus on helping the team's overall dps rather than just having their own super high, because at the end of the day, we know that we need the team.

    The above comment - most people can differentiate between gear dps and rotation dps. Getting higher gear as a guild doesn't fix your rotation. Also, if your tank leaves when there is no problem killing stuff, that is their issue and I would imagine to be rare. In lower dungeons, one should expect some players to be new (and being beaten by a tank would help encourage them to work on rotation) and in higher dungeons yeah that shouldn't be happening without a reason. I don't see that happening in tera though, with limited entries - if you have a group that can successfully get through and you've already used the entry (which you have since you know they're lower than you) it would be surprising that a tank would quit for that reason.

    I personally really liked having damage meters on the game and found them useful. I think they would be a boon to tera in it of themselves - not to mention the fact a number of players already use them, giving em an advantage, letting em still get upset on lower dps peeps without said lower dps peeps seeing it emselves or having the tool to help improve, ect.
  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    DPS meters have been used as a weeding tool for inexperienced players for the longest time. People will always be pissed if a random BRNM boss of all things takes 10 minutes per run. Some people are surprised when I said that a full guile team proper clear time is 5-6 minutes per boss in a 3-star dungeon, and there will be that rare group of people who is unafraid to reveal that they are only doing 5% of the total boss damage, and explained what the low dps was doing wrong (spacebarring, not using correct crystals etc.)

    The buff to the HP and endurance to dungeons have not only forced us to get out of that burn everything mentality, but also showed that just a weaker player is enough to pull the whole team down. A DPS meter not only tracks how much you/your party does, but also reflects your performance versus a common benchmark. I believe that this will be useful especially after the Arsenal update where I am pretty sure there will still be a huge majority who don't know how to roll their characters.
  • All time have inferiority complex when such thing happens(in dungeons), but just interpret it to vip status. And have some experience fighting real cheaters in BG`s(warriors mostly), when u cant make a move till he over with u...
  • While these may have a good use, like anything else I can see them being used to weed out players who don't have good DPS or gear and instead of helping these players out, they will get called out, kicked from runs and so on. Instead of ridicule, there should be an attitude of "Let's try and help out" as a community effort. As with anything there is always "pros and cons" to something. While meters seem to be a good thing are they really helping or are they hindering? That's what has to be looked at as a whole.
  • StevenAnthonyStevenAnthony ✭✭✭✭
    aeee98 wrote: »
    DPS meters have been used as a weeding tool for inexperienced players for the longest time. People will always be pissed if a random BRNM boss of all things takes 10 minutes per run. Some people are surprised when I said that a full guile team proper clear time is 5-6 minutes per boss in a 3-star dungeon, and there will be that rare group of people who is unafraid to reveal that they are only doing 5% of the total boss damage, and explained what the low dps was doing wrong (spacebarring, not using correct crystals etc.)

    The buff to the HP and endurance to dungeons have not only forced us to get out of that burn everything mentality, but also showed that just a weaker player is enough to pull the whole team down. A DPS meter not only tracks how much you/your party does, but also reflects your performance versus a common benchmark. I believe that this will be useful especially after the Arsenal update where I am pretty sure there will still be a huge majority who don't know how to roll their characters.

    with +15 ambush im have more dps 0.1% + vs +15 dreatward dude

    is nice tools, but no with fool people ( they see more numbers and no fun )
  • We should defently get a DPS meter installed in tera.
    Flamers & negative attitude will be in every corner what so ever. I think everyone will stop slack aswell in dungeons / raids if they know everyone can watch their DPS/HEAL
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