08/24/17 Server Maintenance and Security Update

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Comments

  • PixelatorPixelator ✭✭✭✭
    gib wrote: »
    there is literally no downside to using these tools. i don't see how it's ruining the game? they're just improving their playing experience?

    Just to be perfectly fair, this is not entirely true. You're talking about a framework that can be used for a huge number of different things. It can be used for "good". It can be used for "evil". And the reason this sort of action is taking place is not primarily because of the "good" things -- it's because there's been an increase in the number of "bad" things it is also used for. It's true that some of the bad things are still possible a different way using different tools, or that maybe things will be "fixed" so that bad things can still occur. But at the same time, it's not at all fair to act like the technology can only possibly be used for good things that "improve the playing experience." It's a more sympathetic argument, but it's not looking at the entire picture.

    If there ever were going to be a discussion about these issues, it would have to be done with eyes wide open -- to look honestly at both the good and the bad that the tools have brought. For my part, I've expressed to EME that it's important for BHS to not only focus on the DPS Meter (which they've said they'd work on, and even K-TERA wants), but also the ping/latency skill fixes that most benefit our region. If they could make these two changes, it would eliminate the two most common gaps that commonly-support the argument for these tools.
    B-but broker bots, automated box opening and teleporting anywhere improve the player experience too!
  • edited August 2017
    Pixelator wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    there is literally no downside to using these tools. i don't see how it's ruining the game? they're just improving their playing experience?

    Just to be perfectly fair, this is not entirely true. You're talking about a framework that can be used for a huge number of different things. It can be used for "good". It can be used for "evil". And the reason this sort of action is taking place is not primarily because of the "good" things -- it's because there's been an increase in the number of "bad" things it is also used for. It's true that some of the bad things are still possible a different way using different tools, or that maybe things will be "fixed" so that bad things can still occur. But at the same time, it's not at all fair to act like the technology can only possibly be used for good things that "improve the playing experience." It's a more sympathetic argument, but it's not looking at the entire picture.

    If there ever were going to be a discussion about these issues, it would have to be done with eyes wide open -- to look honestly at both the good and the bad that the tools have brought. For my part, I've expressed to EME that it's important for BHS to not only focus on the DPS Meter (which they've said they'd work on, and even K-TERA wants), but also the ping/latency skill fixes that most benefit our region. If they could make these two changes, it would eliminate the two most common gaps that commonly-support the argument for these tools.
    B-but broker bots, automated box opening and teleporting anywhere improve the player experience too!

    Yup, exactly. So does "significantly improving the speed at which bosses and other players can be killed when using a certain skill on a certain class", I'm sure. Everyone knows that MMO progression is stupid anyway; this just makes it faster/easier! Plus, PvP is broken anyway since BHS can't balance the classes for their life. And hey, everyone knows the game is "dead"; at least let us have some fun! It's im-improving the player experience! W-Where's the downside?!

    Slippery slope arguments may be bad debating form, but you just have to look at the history here and see it play out. The "it's only positive improvements!" argument was weak before (did anyone really not see this coming?), but is completely dead now that we are where we are. (The fact that this was already possible without the tool doesn't change that this made it much more accessible.) And if your argument is that EME/BHS deserve it because of how incompetent they are, then it doesn't even matter if you're right -- you just won't have a seat at the table.

    If you don't want them to throw the baby out with the bath water, you can't argue that the water's clean.
  • On Discord they're saying memeslash started working only a few minutes after server was patched and SP is mostly working too now. I don't really care about the who what's right or wrong argument but this is just stupid. Why are you killing legit third party and leaving hacks intact? Are BHS programmers all computer illiterate?
  • gibgib ✭✭✭
    gib wrote: »
    there is literally no downside to using these tools. i don't see how it's ruining the game? they're just improving their playing experience?

    Just to be perfectly fair, this is not entirely true. You're talking about a framework that can be used for a huge number of different things. It can be used for "good". It can be used for "evil". And the reason this sort of action is taking place is not primarily because of the "good" things -- it's because there's been an increase in the number of "bad" things it is also used for. It's true that some of the bad things are still possible a different way using different tools, or that maybe things will be "fixed" so that bad things can still occur. But at the same time, it's not at all fair to act like the technology can only possibly be used for good things that "improve the playing experience." It's a more sympathetic argument, but it's not looking at the entire picture.

    If there ever were going to be a discussion about these issues, it would have to be done with eyes wide open -- to look honestly at both the good and the bad that the tools have brought. For my part, I've expressed to EME that it's important for BHS to not only focus on the DPS Meter (which they've said they'd work on, and even K-TERA wants), but also the ping/latency skill fixes that most benefit our region. If they could make these two changes, it would eliminate the two most common gaps that commonly-support the argument for these tools. But in the meantime, given the bad things also going on, it isn't surprising they will take this and likely further action.

    while its unfortunate that the proxy allows for malicious modules being used, it's benefits far outweigh its downsides. the exploits that are currently being circulated are easily fixed in a matter of minutes if eme chooses to do so, which only leaves the positive benefits. it does suck that people are ruining a good thing by using it for malicious intent, but that not what it was originally made for. however, the action that eme and other regions are taking to combat the exploiting is completely wrong. oneshotting is still as easy as ever to abuse, while the obfuscation of the packets and opcodes make actual development of good modules like skill prediction a major inconvenience.

    if eme and other regions took advice from actual smart players, they could have avoided this fiasco in the first place. we can't blame the players entirely for trying to fix things themselves, when eme and bhs refuse to do so.

    but it does suck that these exploits have given proxy a bad reputation. i just hope that eme and bhs will drop the ego and listen to people who know what they're talking about.
    Vindicting wrote: »
    On Discord they're saying memeslash started working only a few minutes after server was patched and SP is mostly working too now. I don't really care about the who what's right or wrong argument but this is just stupid. Why are you killing legit third party and leaving hacks intact? Are BHS programmers all computer illiterate?

    yes. the "security" update that came out was nothing more than the removal of packet names. so opcodes have to be manually mapped. this is a major inconvenience for modules like skill prediction, seeing how they use so many packets, but it's still incredibly easy to make oneshot work. it literally takes 2 packets to abuse.


  • gib wrote: »
    yes. the "security" update that came out was nothing more than the removal of packet names. so opcodes have to be manually mapped. this is a major inconvenience for modules like skill prediction, seeing how they use so many packets, but it's still incredibly easy to make oneshot work. it literally takes 2 packets to abuse.
    I saw Pinkie and Bern talk about heuristics and decompiler so hopefully that's just temporary. It would suck to see skill prediction break or become harder to maintain putting more strain on kind players who help others but do nothing against exploits. I already saw someone memeslashing again today.
  • gibgib ✭✭✭
    Vindicting wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    yes. the "security" update that came out was nothing more than the removal of packet names. so opcodes have to be manually mapped. this is a major inconvenience for modules like skill prediction, seeing how they use so many packets, but it's still incredibly easy to make oneshot work. it literally takes 2 packets to abuse.
    I saw Pinkie and Bern talk about heuristics and decompiler so hopefully that's just temporary. It would suck to see skill prediction break or become harder to maintain putting more strain on kind players who help others but do nothing against exploits. I already saw someone memeslashing again today.

    yes, pinki has already sort of come up with an automated process for mapping the packets. skill prediction is pretty much working in NA and EU, but any update is just more work to map the packets again.
  • imagine being so stubborn as a game developer to not seek help from the players and losing more than half of current players to spontaneously stop playing the game. must be hard living such a life, but then, again, i guess you could make up for it by being lazy as hell and preventing the entire proxy mods as a whole, rather than finding a specific fix or tracking memeslashers to begin investigating and banning.

    but imagine this for a second.
    imagine doing all this to sit back lazy as hell, only to find it not working the next hour.
    and have people make memes about it to the point where they post videos on youtube (don't forget about the valk thread on pve discussion, which is still up for some reason (?)) to make fun of developers who tried so hard to make this work on multiple regions, only to backfire and lose actual players. All this work for them just enraged the players who didn't memeslash and just wanted to play this heavily ping based game while memeslashers are still memeing.

    but the real memesters are BHS in the end.
    i guess they got the last laugh when they realized the player population for today's login was considerably low compared to yesterday.
    ha HAA



    maybe try again ? idk.
  • So, proxy still work? That`s bad news,i hope with this security update they will fix something, but if proxy still work,my question is, what this patch fix? nothing? I hate cheaters, and ppl who use cheats, must be banned.
  • gibgib ✭✭✭
    Vasy86le wrote: »
    So, proxy still work? That`s bad news,i hope with this security update they will fix something, but if proxy still work,my question is, what this patch fix? nothing? I hate cheaters, and ppl who use cheats, must be banned.

    proxy by itself isn't a bad thing. it just had its reputation tarnished by a certain exploit. i dont know why you've a bad attitude towards it when it's not bad at all.

    do you think we should ban people living in chicago or people with low ping? because they have an unfair advantage over the majority of the population. that's not fair. they should be banned.
  • LesbianViLesbianVi ✭✭✭✭✭
    gib wrote: »
    Vindicting wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    yes. the "security" update that came out was nothing more than the removal of packet names. so opcodes have to be manually mapped. this is a major inconvenience for modules like skill prediction, seeing how they use so many packets, but it's still incredibly easy to make oneshot work. it literally takes 2 packets to abuse.
    I saw Pinkie and Bern talk about heuristics and decompiler so hopefully that's just temporary. It would suck to see skill prediction break or become harder to maintain putting more strain on kind players who help others but do nothing against exploits. I already saw someone memeslashing again today.

    yes, pinki has already sort of come up with an automated process for mapping the packets. skill prediction is pretty much working in NA and EU, but any update is just more work to map the packets again.

    Skill prediction and of coarse enrage announcement are fine by you people? Changing the nature of the game? making it a like a Tab-target and skill prediction that even works for pvp?

    I am not uninformed, it was proven.
  • LesbianVi wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    Vindicting wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    yes. the "security" update that came out was nothing more than the removal of packet names. so opcodes have to be manually mapped. this is a major inconvenience for modules like skill prediction, seeing how they use so many packets, but it's still incredibly easy to make oneshot work. it literally takes 2 packets to abuse.
    I saw Pinkie and Bern talk about heuristics and decompiler so hopefully that's just temporary. It would suck to see skill prediction break or become harder to maintain putting more strain on kind players who help others but do nothing against exploits. I already saw someone memeslashing again today.

    yes, pinki has already sort of come up with an automated process for mapping the packets. skill prediction is pretty much working in NA and EU, but any update is just more work to map the packets again.

    Skill prediction and of coarse enrage announcement are fine by you people? Changing the nature of the game? making it a like a Tab-target and skill prediction that even works for pvp?

    I am not uninformed, it was proven.
    Well you are not just uninformed, you're too stupid to even become informed.
  • gibgib ✭✭✭
    LesbianVi wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    Vindicting wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    yes. the "security" update that came out was nothing more than the removal of packet names. so opcodes have to be manually mapped. this is a major inconvenience for modules like skill prediction, seeing how they use so many packets, but it's still incredibly easy to make oneshot work. it literally takes 2 packets to abuse.
    I saw Pinkie and Bern talk about heuristics and decompiler so hopefully that's just temporary. It would suck to see skill prediction break or become harder to maintain putting more strain on kind players who help others but do nothing against exploits. I already saw someone memeslashing again today.

    yes, pinki has already sort of come up with an automated process for mapping the packets. skill prediction is pretty much working in NA and EU, but any update is just more work to map the packets again.

    Skill prediction and of coarse enrage announcement are fine by you people? Changing the nature of the game? making it a like a Tab-target and skill prediction that even works for pvp?

    I am not uninformed, it was proven.

    you are most definitely uninformed.

    the real nature of the game is proven by looking at ktera. no one in ktera has high ping or even 30+ ping. and then you look at na tera and people have from like 5-300 ping. and you think that's okay? skill prediction is not a bad thing. it just makes it so you can play the game as it was meant to be played.

    you are idiotic. please stop talking before you research the topic.
  • LesbianViLesbianVi ✭✭✭✭✭
    gib wrote: »
    LesbianVi wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    Vindicting wrote: »
    gib wrote: »
    yes. the "security" update that came out was nothing more than the removal of packet names. so opcodes have to be manually mapped. this is a major inconvenience for modules like skill prediction, seeing how they use so many packets, but it's still incredibly easy to make oneshot work. it literally takes 2 packets to abuse.
    I saw Pinkie and Bern talk about heuristics and decompiler so hopefully that's just temporary. It would suck to see skill prediction break or become harder to maintain putting more strain on kind players who help others but do nothing against exploits. I already saw someone memeslashing again today.

    yes, pinki has already sort of come up with an automated process for mapping the packets. skill prediction is pretty much working in NA and EU, but any update is just more work to map the packets again.

    Skill prediction and of coarse enrage announcement are fine by you people? Changing the nature of the game? making it a like a Tab-target and skill prediction that even works for pvp?

    I am not uninformed, it was proven.

    you are most definitely uninformed.

    the real nature of the game is proven by looking at ktera. no one in ktera has high ping or even 30+ ping. and then you look at na tera and people have from like 5-300 ping. and you think that's okay? skill prediction is not a bad thing. it just makes it so you can play the game as it was meant to be played.

    you are idiotic. please stop talking before you research the topic.

    LOL, skill prediction is OK? You understand what comes to you and you iframe it sooner in PVP it is OK? You wanna act the same way with 300 ping with someone with 100 ping and I am idiotic?

    Grow up.
  • edited August 2017
    gib wrote: »
    while its unfortunate that the proxy allows for malicious modules being used, it's benefits far outweigh its downsides. the exploits that are currently being circulated are easily fixed in a matter of minutes if eme chooses to do so, which only leaves the positive benefits. it does suck that people are ruining a good thing by using it for malicious intent, but that not what it was originally made for. however, the action that eme and other regions are taking to combat the exploiting is completely wrong. oneshotting is still as easy as ever to abuse, while the obfuscation of the packets and opcodes make actual development of good modules like skill prediction a major inconvenience.

    if eme and other regions took advice from actual smart players, they could have avoided this fiasco in the first place. we can't blame the players entirely for trying to fix things themselves, when eme and bhs refuse to do so.

    but it does suck that these exploits have given proxy a bad reputation. i just hope that eme and bhs will drop the ego and listen to people who know what they're talking about.

    Look... I love this game and I want this thing to resolve well for everybody. I really do. But, this narrative is hardly convincing. This isn't Robin Hood or something. As most everyone predicted, creating an open toolkit to make it easier to create and distribute illegal modifications was inevitably going to attract the darker side of the community. These cheaters and exploiters are not outsiders to the cause -- they're integral leaders of the mod community now. If there was really a strong concern about preserving the "ideological purity" of the technology -- to ensure that it would only ever be used for good and be universally recognized for that -- things would have been done differently all along, and we wouldn't be here now. It feels more like it's only "unfortunate" because it weakens the "good outweighs the bad" narrative, not because there's been any real, vocal part of that community that's been actively fighting against this downward spiral all along.

    If you really do want to see these conversations happen, you can't on the one hand tell EME and BHS to "drop the ego" while still sitting on your high horse -- particularly not after all that's been going on recently. I'd actually really like to see the good aspects of the system not get entirely swept up in the bad, but I really feel that this story -- this attitude -- is actively hurting the cause for everyone, and further entrenching the situation. I think a more sober and honest look, without the self-justification and copious back-patting, would be much more productive at this point. But hey, that's just my opinion. I'm not pretending I have all the answers either.


    Oh, and for what it's worth...
    gib wrote: »
    proxy by itself isn't a bad thing. it just had its reputation tarnished by a certain exploit. i dont know why you've a bad attitude towards it when it's not bad at all.
    It's not just this by any means. That was only the straw the broke the camel's back. If you really think it's just this one thing that's an issue, you're extremely ill-informed about the length and breadth of what's currently in use. This apparent ignorance -- whether willful or not -- is another thing I feel undermines the narrative you're proposing.
  • LesbianViLesbianVi ✭✭✭✭✭
    N3PF5NGPD6 wrote: »
    Almost every HH raid on MT got cancelled , you can guess why.

    But yea this make no difference to lesbianvi cuz CW queue still pops right? :joy:

    real question can you even do CW w/o those tools? :thonking:
This discussion has been closed.