[PC] We will be entering into server maintenance on 8/22 at 6am PDT. For details, please visit the following link: http://bit.ly/terapcmaintenance

08/24/17 Server Maintenance and Security Update

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Comments

  • @counterpoint
    Aren't you supposed to be in the new council? Then why are you so out of touch with the community?

    If you were actually more involved in the community you will know that the two largest Discord communities currently support proxy (one is made just for proxy), reddit supports proxy, and support for proxy in the endgame community is almost universal. Are you just going to tell the players they're all wrong? Despite the fact that many are veterans and players who have been looked up to for years?

    HH raids across NA can't ever be filled since they took proxy offline for a few hours. Hacks are not fixed and class predictors are back up again.

    It is clear to people with a brain that not only was what EME/BHS tried to do not what most players want, but they also miserably failed at the task. So why are you, supposedly a player council advocate, shielding EME from the blame and going against community best interest and consensus?
  • edited August 2017
    Vindicting wrote: »
    @counterpoint
    Aren't you supposed to be in the new council? Then why are you so out of touch with the community?

    If you were actually more involved in the community you will know that the two largest Discord communities currently support proxy (one is made just for proxy), reddit supports proxy, and support for proxy in the endgame community is almost universal. Are you just going to tell the players they're all wrong? Despite the fact that many are veterans and players who have been looked up to for years?

    HH raids across NA can't ever be filled since they took proxy offline for a few hours. Hacks are not fixed and class predictors are back up again.

    It is clear to people with a brain that not only was what EME/BHS tried to do not what most players want, but they also miserably failed at the task. So why are you, supposedly a player council advocate, shielding EME from the blame and going against community best interest and consensus?

    I'm not your elected representative. I don't have to "shield EME" from anything either -- it's obvious that what they did didn't fully work and problems remain. But if you really believe that the system, the way it was, was going to go unchecked indefinitely just because it's "popular" for the "good things" it allows, you were honestly naive. The line is so far crossed at this point that even people who might otherwise have been willing to turn a blind eye can no longer do so. You have to recognize just how dire the situation has gotten.

    I am in full support of this game and growing the community, but I do not always think they collectively make the right decisions or stand for the right causes. This particular situation is one where I think noble goals have gotten muddied by extremely dubious methods, and I feel there is no tenable position to advocate the technology as-is given the obvious ways it is being misused. Other council members are certainly welcome to -- and do have -- their own opinions. EME is no more obligated to listen to me than to anyone, but I think I'm able to provide a different perspective in this thread that might be useful if there's a desire for a compromise. You can believe me or not, but arguing the narrative the way you want to present it is a complete and utter dead end.
  • LesbianViLesbianVi ✭✭✭✭✭
    @counterpoint

    They don't want argument, they want those advantages back, they want easy runs, easy wins, it is clear by now, EME should man up and start cleaning up, they shouldn't leave the game, they need to be out of the game.

    https://forums.enmasse.com/tera/discussion/17310/08-24-17-server-maintenance-and-security-update/p1

    On my post there, I tried to reflect a bit of problems that should be addressed by EME for BHS, but no one wants to follow that, these 7 pages is not to fix the problems, it is the entitlement to those advantage.

  • @counterpoint

    >I'm not your elected representative

    Indeed you are not my elected representative, you are EME's elected representative. Most of us are willing to look past this conflict of interest if you are at least somewhat impartial, but the fact that you stand with EME on every single post you've made in the last year makes me seriously question that claim.

    >it's obvious that what they did didn't fully work and problems remain

    It's not that it didn't fully work, it's that it didn't work at all.

    >You have to recognize just how dire the situation has gotten.

    You constantly blame the proxy devs for the situation now but deep down even someone as biased as you know that EME caused all of this.
    1. When they inappropriately caused the Streisand effect during the initial fiasco with the smug comment.
    2. Refusal to communicate with knowledgeable players and proxy developers.
    3. Still seem to have no idea how exploits work at all.
    4. Throw in some stupid patch that gets cracked in 5 minutes.

    All of this reeks of incompetence, big ego and a disdain for the community. Proxy devs created the platform to help players, but what EME had done simply changed that trajectory. The only one with malicious intent is EME.

    >You can believe me or not, but arguing the narrative the way you want to present it is a complete and utter dead end.

    Don't give me this [filtered]. I've been actively playing and following community for a very long time.

    When the original drama happened all 3 major devs offered to help EME. EME declined.
    When memeslash happened Bern sent the fix in and goose offered to catch hackers for EME for free. EME ignored Bern's fix and banned goose.
    EME instead went to BHS probably with no idea how any of this works and BHS just threw in some 5 minute hotfixes. As a result of refusal to communicate with the community, big ego and not wanting to learn, none of the exploits have been fixed to date.

    You keep writing these PR responses that don't say anything, if you disagree with what I'm saying I invite you to base your narrative on what had actually happened by sourcing real events like I did instead of being vague and wishy-washy.
  • edited August 2017
    Vindicting wrote: »
    You keep writing these PR responses that don't say anything, if you disagree with what I'm saying I invite you to base your narrative on what had actually happened by sourcing real events like I did instead of being vague and wishy-washy.

    It honestly seems pointless to even discuss this because there's absolutely no room for a middle ground in your story. Everything is perfectly laid out to completely absolve the people who are actively making and distributing cheats and exploits from the responsibility for doing so, and that just is not realistic. It would be much more believable if it at least acknowledged bad things on both sides, rather than just making one side the complete enemy. This is just how entrenched the situation has gotten.

    I don't care about "defending EME" for the way they handled the situation; it mostly sucked. But absolutely none of what happened is suitable justification; it's just rationalization. The primary fault lies with the people creating, distributing, and using the exploits. EME and BHS could absolutely have done more to prevent things from getting this bad, but it doesn't absolve anyone of guilt either.

    Let me just put this out there -- I welcome and invite anyone with information about how to stop any TERA cheat or exploit to send it to me via forum PM, and, so long as I am in a position to do so, I will guarantee it is received by EME staff. Whether they are able to use this information to stop an exploit, who knows (there may be a lot of reasons why they can't implement a proposed fix), but at least I can make sure it gets passed along.

    Vindicting wrote: »
    Indeed you are not my elected representative, you are EME's elected representative. Most of us are willing to look past this conflict of interest if you are at least somewhat impartial, but the fact that you stand with EME on every single post you've made in the last year makes me seriously question that claim.
    My opinions are my own, and they haven't really changed in all the years I've been on the forum or played this game. And, actually, I've disagreed with EME on a lot of issues (including on the forum), but you don't see it because I don't go on the direct attack when hoping to be heard because I've learned it doesn't work. And, actually, this is exactly the point I'm trying to make here.

    In the end, I can just encourage you and everyone to stop this constant entrenchment, and to try to see things from other perspectives to reach a compromise. Otherwise, this will only keep escalating, and I truly don't believe that will be good for the game or its community. Discrediting me won't bring things closer to a solution. Please try to listen to the perspective I'm presenting and really think about it, not just immediately attack it. That's all I ask.
  • @counterpoint
    It honestly seems pointless to even discuss this because there's absolutely no room for a middle ground in your story. Everything is perfectly laid out to completely absolve the people who are actively making and distributing cheats and exploits from the responsibility for doing so, and that just is not realistic. It would be much more believable if it at least acknowledged bad things on both sides, rather than just making one side the complete enemy. This is just how entrenched the situation has gotten.
    The person who distributed memeslash was banned from all TERA Discords by the proxy devs and ironically he's also banned because of the proxy devs. Do you know what's funny? Proxy devs banned more people for using memeslash than EME did by sending them to the doom zone. Proxy devs actively fought hacks. The people who you are trying to villainize straight up refused to help anyone set up memeslash and refused to distribute it or sell it. They even wrote code into the proxy to reduce exploits.

    The reason you can't find a middle ground in this discussion is because there is no middle ground. Anyone who had been following the community carefully for the past few months is absolutely fed up.

    You can keep trying to PR spin your way out of this mess, but it is 100% EME's fault and I've given direct evidence of why I think that is the case.
  • edited August 2017
    Vindicting wrote: »
    The person who distributed memeslash was banned from all TERA Discords by the proxy devs and ironically he's also banned because of the proxy devs. Do you know what's funny? Proxy devs banned more people for using memeslash than EME did by sending them to the doom zone. Proxy devs actively fought hacks. The people who you are trying to villainize straight up refused to help anyone set up memeslash and refused to distribute it or sell it. They even wrote code into the proxy to reduce exploits.
    As I said before, this situation isn't all about that one exploit, which everyone and their mother can tell have obviously gone way the heck too far and would incur the wrath of the TERA gods. It's obvious anyone smart would come down hard on people giving the whole community such an obviously bad name. But coming down hard on the distributor and users of this one exploit (the author?) doesn't address all the other questionable uses of the tool that have been building over the last few months. It had already gone long past being "completely harmless." This progression is the natural evolution of the trajectory this thing has been on from the get-go (as many people said at the time).

    Anyway, I know you don't believe me, but I'm not "against you". This is not "PR spin". I want you to understand how the situation is seen outside the filter bubble, and the tall wall you have to climb to get out. But if you want to just keep on believing the situation is that black-and-white, nothing else matters, and the chips will fall where they may. Everyone has to make their own decisions.
  • VindictingVindicting ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    @counterpoint
    But coming down hard on the distributor and users of this one exploit (the author?) doesn't address all the other questionable uses of the tool that have been building over the last few months.

    The fact that you don't even know the distributor of memeslash is not the author already shows how out of touch you are with what is essentially common sense in the community. You keep saying "questionable" use of the tool, but you never give examples, because you know that all of them are actually completely fine. Unless you mean auto-potter is too hax for you?

    It's rich that you talk about "filter bubbles" because the fact that every claim I made is backed up with evidence and real event, while you don't even know who the creator and distributor of memeslash are proves that you are actually the one in the bubble not exposed to what's actually happening.
  • Vindicting wrote: »
    @counterpoint
    But coming down hard on the distributor and users of this one exploit (the author?) doesn't address all the other questionable uses of the tool that have been building over the last few months.

    The fact that you don't even know the distributor of memeslash is not the author already shows how out of touch you are with what is essentially common sense in the community. You keep saying "questionable" use of the tool, but you never give examples, because you know that all of them are actually completely fine. Unless you mean auto-potter is too hax for you?

    It's rich that you talk about "filter bubbles" because the fact that every claim I made is backed up with evidence and real event, while you don't even know who the creator and distributor of memeslash are proves that you are actually the one in the bubble not exposed to what's actually happening.

    No, that was actually exactly my point in calling it out in parenthesis. The community came down hard on the distributor and users of the tool, but what of the author?

    But anyway, it's useless -- I know the game you're playing and the path you're on.
  • VindictingVindicting ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Vindicting wrote: »
    @counterpoint
    But coming down hard on the distributor and users of this one exploit (the author?) doesn't address all the other questionable uses of the tool that have been building over the last few months.

    The fact that you don't even know the distributor of memeslash is not the author already shows how out of touch you are with what is essentially common sense in the community. You keep saying "questionable" use of the tool, but you never give examples, because you know that all of them are actually completely fine. Unless you mean auto-potter is too hax for you?

    It's rich that you talk about "filter bubbles" because the fact that every claim I made is backed up with evidence and real event, while you don't even know who the creator and distributor of memeslash are proves that you are actually the one in the bubble not exposed to what's actually happening.

    No, that was actually exactly my point in calling it out in parenthesis. The community came down hard on the distributor and users of the tool, but what of the author?

    But anyway, it's useless -- I know the game you're playing and the path you're on.

    Is Prometheus considered the devil because fire can be used for arson and murder? The blame solely lies on the arsoners and murderers.

    Also, in case you missed it, the author was banned a long time ago for other equally stupid reasons. The community did not go after him because since years ago until today and beyond, he's been one of the most helpful members and a community pillar. The fact the hack was stolen and he actively worked with other proxy script developers to fight it is very apparent.
  • gibgib ✭✭✭

    Let me just put this out there -- I welcome and invite anyone with information about how to stop any TERA cheat or exploit to send it to me via forum PM, and, so long as I am in a position to do so, I will guarantee it is received by EME staff. Whether they are able to use this information to stop an exploit, who knows (there may be a lot of reasons why they can't implement a proposed fix), but at least I can make sure it gets passed along.

    literally all of the proxy devs have tried to reach out to eme but been shut down. eme straight lied to everyone when the fiasco first became publicized. now our only hope lies in saegusae to try and talk to eme.

    trust me, we've tried to talk to eme about it. but every single time we try and talk to them about it, they tell us it's to dangerous and essentially tell us to fvck off. and you expect us to just sit here talk about it? this isn't out diary. we are trying to get things fixed. eme does not.
    In the end, I can just encourage you and everyone to stop this constant entrenchment, and to try to see things from other perspectives to reach a compromise. Otherwise, this will only keep escalating, and I truly don't believe that will be good for the game or its community. Please try to listen to the perspective I'm presenting and really think about it, not just immediately attack it. That's all I ask.

    we have seen things from other perspectives. for years. and that perspective sucks. that's why we're trying to make you see OUR perspective.

    escalating is our only hope that eme will finally get things done. eme has been straight ignoring any attempt of communication to talk about these third party tools.
    Please try to listen to the perspective I'm presenting and really think about it, not just immediately attack it. That's all I ask.

    what is your true perspective then? that we should just sit and talk about it? try to come up with a compromise? we've tried to come up with a compromise for years. eme is the only one who doesn't want to compromise. and thats a fact. you can personally ask any third party developer (Pinkie Pie, Bernkastel, Saegusae) if they've tried to make communication, and they'll tell you they have. and they'll also tell you that they've been ignored.

    but yeah, proxy is bad and you should be banned if you use it. /s
  • edited August 2017
    "Is Prometheus considered the devil because fire can be used for arson and murder? The blame solely lies on the arsoners and murderers."

    So you are meaning to tell me that Einstein wasn't even slightly guilty with developing the atomic bomb? Mkay

    "Also, in case you missed it, the author was banned a long time ago for other equally stupid reasons."

    Bern, btw also one of the "Proxy devs" you are trying to defend, who developed memeslash definitely wasn't banned for "stupid reasons"

    "The fact the hack was stolen and he actively worked with other proxy script developers to fight it is very apparent."

    Stolen? Don't make me laugh.
  • Compromise is a nice goal, yeah, but En Masse isn't even speaking the same language as everyone else at the table.
  • wow. You guys a bunch of horses. I literally puke. Earth is not safe anymore. I'm flying to mooon!
  • "Is Prometheus considered the devil because fire can be used for arson and murder? The blame solely lies on the arsoners and murderers."

    So you are meaning to tell me that Einstein wasn't even slightly guilty with developing the atomic bomb? Mkay

    "Also, in case you missed it, the author was banned a long time ago for other equally stupid reasons."

    Bern, btw also one of the "Proxy devs" you are trying to defend, who developed memeslash definitely wasn't banned for "stupid reasons"

    "The fact the hack was stolen and he actively worked with other proxy script developers to fight it is very apparent."

    Stolen? Don't make me laugh.
    Then give evidence for your claims. It's so easy to make statements like that and pretend they're facts.
This discussion has been closed.