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IS the elite status (Subscription) p2w?

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Comments

  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    aeee98 wrote: »
    2.0 Dragons is however the prime definition of "pay-to-win" because unless you pay or buy out from a player who paid, you won't get the exclusive 2.0 buff.

    1. You could get the 2.0 dragon without paying. It was in the last strongbox key event.
    2. What does that exclusive buff do for you? What do you "win" after you've paid? Or is just having it considered a win? Because then everything that's cash shop exclusive is p2w and any game with a cash shop would then be considered p2w making the term pointless.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Because then everything that's cash shop exclusive is p2w and any game with a cash shop would then be considered p2w making the term pointless.

    That is what p2w is linked thought.

    If EME wouldn't hand 2.0 dragons in their events then that thing would be a clear example of a p2w feature.

    You would get an exclusive cash shop item that will give you a pasive skill for you to deal more damage, p2w is not something relevant for most people but there are several individuals on games tha likes to brag about their e-pens and Tera is not the exeption.

    There are some guilds that will not let you join them if you don't have an average dps on party runs and 2.0 dragons is something that help you to do that.

    Anyway, EME has been killing each attemp of BHS to make Tera p2w and NA that is something that hasn't happened yet.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    If EME wouldn't hand 2.0 dragons in their events then that thing would be a clear example of a p2w feature.

    But they did. And likely will do it again.
    You would get an exclusive cash shop item that will give you a pasive skill for you to deal more damage, p2w is not something relevant for most people but there are several individuals on games tha likes to brag about their e-pens and Tera is not the exeption.

    Look, I don't think that someone's e-peen or bragging can contribute to the p2w-ness of an item. As long as it doesn't impact the rest of the people or prevent you from even competing with them. You can compete against somebody with a dragon and you can win against them even if you don't have a dragon.
    There are some guilds that will not let you join them if you don't have an average dps on party runs and 2.0 dragons is something that help you to do that.

    It helps a little but it doesn't guarantee anything. I have a dragon on my sorc and I'm sure there are plenty of sorcs who do not have one and can outdps me by a significant amount. So, I paid, but I didn't win. How does that work if it's p2w? Or is it more like Pay2MaybePossiblySometimesIfYouAreGoodEnoughAndPlayACertainClassWin? Cause that I'd agree with.

  • ElinUsagi wrote: »
    LilMsQTay wrote: »
    66ECX7NAN7 wrote: »
    Ketoth wrote: »
    Just to point: 2.0 dragons can drop ingame if no one knows.
    Its a low chance on P4 HH, but still can drop, I saw 2 already

    But who does P4 HH without already having a 2.0 dragon that probably came from lootboxes?

    well according to several comments, these are not needed, to do that raid so I doubt anyone in party would have them

    Also 1.5 dragons are free handed in game.

    Where/how do you get those?
  • feminziifeminzii ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    DeadX wrote: »
    feminzii wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    prove me wrong snowflake? no? didn't think so. seems there's another no experience 'gamer' here.
    further enlightenment:

    i have experienced and played multiple pay to win mmo's, you CANNOT win without opening your wallet. you CANNOT gain the advantages other wallet warriors can through in game methods.
    that part is obvious
    the nonsensical and moronic part of your argument is that it is essentially "because I played game X and it was more pay to win than game Y, game Y has no pay to win features"
    and lastly...no one else could come along and say someone had to buy the emp lol. buying and selling emp is just as OPTIONAL as everything else. grinding or procuring the top gear is less optional if you want to "win". there are multiple paths to end game gear...even solo and not a cent spent.

    why can't they? going off your own dumb argument, someone could just as easily say that elite is P2W because the only way to actually obtain it outside an event is by someone swiping their card to buy it. as @aeyrebaby said, it's the exact same thing as you saying that other features aren't pay to win just because someone had to grind the gold. both arguments are equally moronic.

    no one could say elite is pay to win fool, WHERE'S THE ADVANTAGE TO WIN that you can't get in game? hmm? c'mon fool tell me. that was pathetic...i keep trying to explain to you snowflakes that you CANNOT win in a pay to win game unless you PAY. THAT'S the definition.

    do you understand english? let me try and simplify for you.
    PAY, to proffer currency TO an entity to WIN. what part of it's not OPTIONAL don't you understand? now tell me snowflake where in the cash shop is something that can let you WIN that no one else can acquire by any means in game?

    c'mon snowflake, tell me ROFL.

    I never said elite was P2W, on the contrary on page 1 I said
    elite isn't p2w
    and referring to the "elite is p2w" argument in my response to you I said
    both arguments are equally moronic

    the point was that following your dumb logic, someone on the other side could flip around what you're saying and make the reverse argument and there's no reason why they couldn't. You fail to see that which doesn't come to me as much of a surprise

    also, where is this snowflake thing coming from? i'm lowkey cringing everytime I read it. If you can't talk to someone without throwing in buzzword insults that have nothing at all to do with the conversation being had, you should really learn to.
  • TWMagimay wrote: »
    And I kept asking him to define winning but, oddly enough, he failed to do so.
    No, actually, I gave you several examples of scenarios where you could win in Tera, even in the literal sense. It's just that you discard them as not being good enough. On top of that, even if there were an example of it that would satisfy you (and there would never be), you would come back with your "but nothing in the cash shop gives you a win, so nothing is P2W".
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Also, OW PvP is a thing.
    It is. Like I said, you're going to continue being dismissive of the "winnable" content you say is fabricated and made up, simply because it isn't as alive as it used to be. Doesn't make room for much in the way of discussion. You just keep doing you.
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    And you can win it. Because you have a dragon. Cute.
    No one made that argument, anywhere.

    In the end, we don't even agree on the usage of the term "P2W". For you a game either forces you to pay in order to win or it does not. Therefore, because you are narrow-minded any claim that a feature might be cash-shop favored, like dragons, automatically becomes "The game is unplayable without a dragon" which wasn't what was being said at all.

    We can take terms literally and say, "If you can't swipe your card to win the game, it's not pay to win", which is what you are doing and that's fine.
    But to me, if a friend asks me if a game is P2W, the information they want is not whether they can literally pay for a win, rather they want to know how impactful the cash shop is on the game. By your strict, literal interpretation, plenty of games where the cash shops give tons of advantages (I'll stress yet again that I don't think Tera is P2W or falls under this category) would not be regarded as "P2W" for informative purposes simply because those games have some free players who manage to do fine.
  • LilMsQTay wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    LilMsQTay wrote: »
    66ECX7NAN7 wrote: »
    Ketoth wrote: »
    Just to point: 2.0 dragons can drop ingame if no one knows.
    Its a low chance on P4 HH, but still can drop, I saw 2 already

    But who does P4 HH without already having a 2.0 dragon that probably came from lootboxes?

    well according to several comments, these are not needed, to do that raid so I doubt anyone in party would have them

    Also 1.5 dragons are free handed in game.

    Where/how do you get those?

    Do daily. Mid tier dungeons give you 2 dragon scales per clear. 200 clears of whatever dungeons and you'll get enough scale for 1 dragon.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    aeyrebaby wrote: »
    We can take terms literally and say, "If you can't swipe your card to win the game, it's not pay to win", which is what you are doing and that's fine.
    But to me, if a friend asks me if a game is P2W, the information they want is not whether they can literally pay for a win, rather they want to know how impactful the cash shop is on the game. By your strict, literal interpretation, plenty of games where the cash shops give tons of advantages (I'll stress yet again that I don't think Tera is P2W or falls under this category) would not be regarded as "P2W" for informative purposes simply because those games have some free players who manage to do fine.

    And if we take your logic, every game is p2w. In which case, the term has no practical meaning. Also, by your logic, elite IS more p2w than dragons because it literally doubles your rate of progress in the game while the dragon simply gives you a small dps boost. Oh, and, that'd depend on the advantages. But then again, in your eyes, any advantage = p2w => everything is p2w. So much information, my mind is blown.
  • AbaddonoffireAbaddonoffire ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    lol
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    aeyrebaby wrote: »
    We can take terms literally and say, "If you can't swipe your card to win the game, it's not pay to win", which is what you are doing and that's fine.
    But to me, if a friend asks me if a game is P2W, the information they want is not whether they can literally pay for a win, rather they want to know how impactful the cash shop is on the game. By your strict, literal interpretation, plenty of games where the cash shops give tons of advantages (I'll stress yet again that I don't think Tera is P2W or falls under this category) would not be regarded as "P2W" for informative purposes simply because those games have some free players who manage to do fine.

    And if we take your logic, every game is p2w. In which case, the term has no practical meaning. Also, by your logic, elite IS more p2w than dragons because it literally doubles your rate of progress in the game while the dragon simply gives you a small dps boost. Oh, and, that'd depend on the advantages. But then again, in your eyes, any advantage = p2w => everything is p2w. So much information, my mind is blown.
    i disagree. theres plenty of games where you cant pay2win. theres a scale its not a yes or no question.
  • TWMagimay wrote: »
    And if we take your logic, every game is p2w. In which case, the term has no practical meaning. Also, by your logic, elite IS more p2w than dragons because it literally doubles your rate of progress in the game while the dragon simply gives you a small dps boost. Oh, and, that'd depend on the advantages. But then again, in your eyes, any advantage = p2w => everything is p2w. So much information, my mind is blown.
    i disagree. theres plenty of games where you cant pay2win. theres a scale its not a yes or no question.

    In MMOs? Pretty hard to find examples that are not at all "pay2win" if you have a broad enough definition, honestly. Most MMOs have a problem with gold sellers, and people who buy gold often use it to buy clears and/or other elements that help them get ahead much more quickly. So even if the publisher's cash shop doesn't directly sell progression-related items, people with more money get ahead. Any game where progression is gated in part by time will have this problem (because "time is money").

    I do agree with the concept of it being a scale, and on that scale I think TERA is not very high. But the problem with these conversations is always that people draw a line on different points along that scale, so the whole discussion ends only being about what scale to use. But, well, life is also pretty "pay2win" while we're at it, so the idea that games could be entirely exempt -- a pure unadulterated display of skill and effort -- may be somewhat naive to begin with.
  • TWMagimay wrote: »
    And if we take your logic, every game is p2w. In which case, the term has no practical meaning. Also, by your logic, elite IS more p2w than dragons because it literally doubles your rate of progress in the game while the dragon simply gives you a small dps boost. Oh, and, that'd depend on the advantages. But then again, in your eyes, any advantage = p2w => everything is p2w. So much information, my mind is blown.
    i disagree. theres plenty of games where you cant pay2win. theres a scale its not a yes or no question.

    In MMOs? Pretty hard to find examples that are not at all "pay2win" if you have a broad enough definition, honestly. Most MMOs have a problem with gold sellers, and people who buy gold often use it to buy clears and/or other elements that help them get ahead much more quickly. So even if the publisher's cash shop doesn't directly sell progression-related items, people with more money get ahead. Any game where progression is gated in part by time will have this problem (because "time is money").

    I do agree with the concept of it being a scale, and on that scale I think TERA is not very high. But the problem with these conversations is always that people draw a line on different points along that scale, so the whole discussion ends only being about what scale to use. But, well, life is also pretty "pay2win" while we're at it, so the idea that games could be entirely exempt -- a pure unadulterated display of skill and effort -- may be somewhat naive to begin with.

    gold sellers are almost always against the tos and bannable. same as you cant balance a game around hacks, you cant accuse the devs of being pay2win because gold sellers exist.


    but otherwise we agree, everyones definition is different which is why when someone asks "is this game pay2win" i answer their question with the question of "what is your definition of pay2win" tera is indeed very low on the pay2win scale especially for a free mmo. its quite insane.
  • aeyrebabyaeyrebaby ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    TWMagimay wrote: »

    And if we take your logic, every game is p2w.

    Except not really, because there are f2p games, like League of Legends, for example, in which you cannot pay for any sort of advantage. Also, considering I made the statement repeatedly (I'm actually AMAZED that I have to mention this yet again) that Tera isn't a p2w game, it falls to think that my logic would not imply that every game is P2W. I wouldn't take small features like dragons or elite, and tell someone that Tera as a whole is a pay to win game from it. That isn't the point at al.
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    In which case, the term has no practical meaning.
    That's exactly the point I was trying to make, if we use your literal interpretation of "you can't buy a win, so it's not pay to win", then yes, of course there's next to no practicality in using the term.

    Fortunately, the way I view the term, there is very much a practical way to use it. I even gave an example (a friend wanting to find out if the game you're playing is "P2W" or not).
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Also, by your logic, elite IS more p2w than dragons because it literally doubles your rate of progress in the game
    The difference is that elite benefits allow you to reacquire or save gold in a way where you can continue funding it for yourself easily, just by playing the game. I didn't think that one needed an explanation but there it is!
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    But then again, in your eyes, any advantage = p2w => everything is p2w. So much information, my mind is blown.

    Now you're getting it (kind of?). I do think any advantage the cash shop provides is inherently p2w to some extent, the only thing you're having an issue understanding is, again, the scale of it all. Sometimes things are p2w to an insignificant extent, as they are in Tera, in other cases, the extent is much more extreme. I don't see it as an "it either is or isn't" kind of thing.

    Hopefully this clears up your mind explosion once and for all.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    If EME wouldn't hand 2.0 dragons in their events then that thing would be a clear example of a p2w feature.

    But they did. And likely will do it again.
    You would get an exclusive cash shop item that will give you a pasive skill for you to deal more damage, p2w is not something relevant for most people but there are several individuals on games tha likes to brag about their e-pens and Tera is not the exeption.

    Look, I don't think that someone's e-peen or bragging can contribute to the p2w-ness of an item. As long as it doesn't impact the rest of the people or prevent you from even competing with them. You can compete against somebody with a dragon and you can win against them even if you don't have a dragon.
    There are some guilds that will not let you join them if you don't have an average dps on party runs and 2.0 dragons is something that help you to do that.

    It helps a little but it doesn't guarantee anything. I have a dragon on my sorc and I'm sure there are plenty of sorcs who do not have one and can outdps me by a significant amount. So, I paid, but I didn't win. How does that work if it's p2w? Or is it more like Pay2MaybePossiblySometimesIfYouAreGoodEnoughAndPlayACertainClassWin? Cause that I'd agree with.

    Sorry if my lack on english knowledge made some of my sentences somewhat confusing.

    1) I thought I pointed that EME have been giving free 2.0 dragons at least in one event.
    2&3) What I mean with all this is given 2 players with the same kind of skill degree and same gear, accesories, glyphs and even doing the same rotations the one with a 2.0 dragon will deal more dps than the other. This is not an issue for most casual and even is not an issue for more harcore gamers, is only a minority in games that will look that deep into it to consider a PvE advantage that will boost your entire run dps by 5% or less compared to a free 1.5 dragon.

    The advantages that p2w things on Tera gives to players are really small and almost unoticeable for most of the people, because there are people who have even the oblit and have paid other players to get them using their accounts. These people don't care about self improvement at all but only to show off, so the p2w feature Tera has are not that relevant and worth the time discusing and fighting against other users.

    At least that is how I see this things.
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