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65 levels of learning nothing

245

Comments

  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Before I can try to answer more, what would be your ideas and propositions? I'd like to see what you could ask from the devs on one side, and/or the community on the other side, since the problem has roots on both ends.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Equitas wrote: »
    [...]
    This stems into an even bigger problem of learning nothing. People look up the quickest way to level, which many people say is Kumas Royale, and just keep doing that until 65. In this case, they're learning even less about their class because they're not even playing it. They're typically not even playing that mode properly. They just continually throw themselves at the enemy and hope that the enemy fails harder than they do.

    Yeah I would say it's harder effort than just lengthy leveling to actually put people into learning anything.
    See, my example of my own terrible performance on anything other than my main grinds, was on long leveling days, Lv 60 days. I would rise to the top of the Kumasylum players (remember that? Before this new Kumas), be a real legend there (ya I love bragging... but... Nah I just have to be honest, I could win like 80% of the times INCLUDING troll feed runs), but be utter trash at the class specifics that didn't involve those BG specific stuff.

    Like, we've proposed many ways to improve player learning during the leveling so they don't drop fully fresh into the end-game (and even during end-game phase), where the learning curve is completely exponential. Most of that would involve quite the expensive and laborious to program forced dungeon training with AI, or anything that actually takes effort. The sad part is like someone said above: our conclusions are always "Yeah, there's a lot of good ideas but if BHS can't sell an 'Auto Git-gud lootbox' with heavy RNG, it ain't happening", because it's just expensive and there's guides. The reality is sad, but I do agree we shouldn't give up on trying to improve it with suggestions.


    In other hand tho, we should analyze other games that have a similar setup than TERA to see which degree of noobness they have, how much of the "I don't care I just want to level and get the top gear" is part of the game's nature and how much is playerbase's own ignorance in general. Many forced ways of doing stuff only end up as annoyances to others who're good like the stupid beeping arrows begging to use Battle Solutions, Welcome screen tips don't annoy but still, see, you didn't see players with correct (any) crystals even tho what you should do is forced into your face.

    TL;DR: I'm no sure if it's a leveling system issue, as I was trash on old leveling system, would only learn my niches, and I have a feeling that it's not a lack of trying to teach, but a lack of interest in learning, and forcing it would be expensive and could still backfire.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nopi wrote: »
    Before I can try to answer more, what would be your ideas and propositions? I'd like to see what you could ask from the devs on one side, and/or the community on the other side, since the problem has roots on both ends.

    This will get fixed as Riot did for their game... they removed crystals (old runes) from the game and now no one complains about players not having them equiped :v
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Nopi wrote: »
    Before I can try to answer more, what would be your ideas and propositions? I'd like to see what you could ask from the devs on one side, and/or the community on the other side, since the problem has roots on both ends.

    This will get fixed as Riot did for their game... they removed crystals (old runes) from the game and now no one complains about players not having them equiped :v

    And after that:
    the_gm_has_had_it-4b8034dcb2b1aa5900e4e0890180a08b.jpg

    On a more serious note. I ask because I've seen a lot of people complaining about this, and I've seen a few ideas and propositions mixed within those complains. So I'd like to see OP's idea for a fix, since we all already know what he's talking about.
  • I would like it if they brought back a longer leveling journey that more thoroughly explores the entire map with perhaps some portions of the story revamped to account for plotholes that currently exist.
  • PartyblastPartyblast ✭✭✭✭
    Equitas wrote: »
    During my first group dungeon in the world's top subscription MMO, I was chastised for wielding a 2h weapon instead of the sword/shield combination tanks were meant to use. I was expected to know these things right out of the gate. During my time on another MMO, a pretty awful f2p game that I only stuck with because I didn't know better, you were expected to be on point from early on in the game.

    During my first group dungeon in the same MMO nobody said a word and everyone carried on like nothing was happening. You're expected to know what to do, which is exactly the same in Tera. Nobody speaks in leveling dungeons they just charge through expecting everyone to know everything. The leveling process is certainly longer in that game but it in no way assisted in my learning, if anything it's just a nuisance on leveling other characters when you know what to do already.

    Longer leveling =/= People learning the game, if you want the game to teach people then put these tips inside the game, make resources available in-game. These are things the developers can do, as well as the publisher (although EmE would tell people everything wrong anyways so we'll be worse off than now). Another thing that could actually be done is having people actually talk in dungeons and share information, but that's not something you or I can do unless we're leveling and it's certainly not going to work if the people in the group don't accept information or attempt to talk.

    The game does share a portion of responsibility on the problem but the problem also exists between the keyboard and the chair, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Decreasing the level rate, even if it's way too late at this point, will not help anyone and if anything bother people who actually know the game and would like an alt.
  • Partyblast wrote: »
    Equitas wrote: »
    During my first group dungeon in the world's top subscription MMO, I was chastised for wielding a 2h weapon instead of the sword/shield combination tanks were meant to use. I was expected to know these things right out of the gate. During my time on another MMO, a pretty awful f2p game that I only stuck with because I didn't know better, you were expected to be on point from early on in the game.

    During my first group dungeon in the same MMO nobody said a word and everyone carried on like nothing was happening. You're expected to know what to do, which is exactly the same in Tera. Nobody speaks in leveling dungeons they just charge through expecting everyone to know everything. The leveling process is certainly longer in that game but it in no way assisted in my learning, if anything it's just a nuisance on leveling other characters when you know what to do already.

    Longer leveling =/= People learning the game, if you want the game to teach people then put these tips inside the game, make resources available in-game. These are things the developers can do, as well as the publisher (although EmE would tell people everything wrong anyways so we'll be worse off than now). Another thing that could actually be done is having people actually talk in dungeons and share information, but that's not something you or I can do unless we're leveling and it's certainly not going to work if the people in the group don't accept information or attempt to talk.

    The game does share a portion of responsibility on the problem but the problem also exists between the keyboard and the chair, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Decreasing the level rate, even if it's way too late at this point, will not help anyone and if anything bother people who actually know the game and would like an alt.

    I dont expect people to learn while leveling, I usually expect them to start asking questions and wanting to be taught once they hit endgame. I have taught many others how to play the mystic well enough to decently solo heal a 7 man dungeon at the very least.
  • To be fair priests don't really need crystals in 2 and 3 star dungeons if they aren't getting hit. This post is pretty out there.
  • We all start like that, even myself. so i dont see what's the problem here.
  • Yes, this kind of people exist.
    U'll be surprised to know who they actually are.
    They usually in the forum, crying about lots of stuff.

    Best thing to do is actually just move on. U'll see them again.
    They never really leave, even after they said they gonna go to other games...
    :anguished:
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Equitas wrote: »
    If you feel this could be referring to you, then think about what you could be doing to improve.

    Holy hell dude, read my post without jumping to conclusions REEEE
    You're doing the same mistake you did to the person in that run without crystals. You're assuming they don't know what they're doing and you're putting yourself on a higher ground so you could "educate" them. Pls
    In fact, even after they prove to you they do know what they're doing you're belittling them by saying they're just throwing "buzzwords" in order to keep up in your delusion that you're the good and knowledgeable player here, not them. Just ugh
    Were they using e-stars correctly? Was triple nemesis debuff uptime close to 100%? Did they heal people up properly?
  • voidyvoidy ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eh, from his conversation it sounds like he had a pretty good handle on things and just couldn't be bothered to put crystals on an alt that, in all honesty, probably won't get hit much. You're not wrong about the leveling experience teaching *nothing at all* but this is a bad example of it imo
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    Equitas wrote: »
    0/10 bait. Not even a 1 for getting me to respond.

    Can you please enlighten me, how is that bait? Just because I don't agree with the example you used (I do agree with your main point aka leveling lacks any incentive for players to learn) doesn't mean I'm trolling you.
    I'm being 100% honest and sincere with my posts.
  • Decreasing the speed at which players level wont solve the problem though. The levelling experience itself doesn't teach players anything as is, and that wont change even if it was slower. One of the biggest reasons for this is because players don't have the tools to do so, you can't learn rotations because you wont have the CDR/Aspd or even often the skills/passives to make them viable. Not only that but skill priorities can be different due to varying skill damage from skill levels, not having the CDR/Aspd/Crit/Glyphs/Skill chains to make a skill work effectively.
    Meanwhile most of the content while levelling isn't mechanically equivalent to endgame content so even if players could learn things properly in a manner equivalent to how they would in endgame, there would be no reason to.

    Both of the above to fix would require a large amount of development time to rework several systems to make them friendly enough to newer players that they could be incorporated into the levelling process, as well as a change in the difficulty of certain parts of the game while levelling. The biggest part of this is that the majority of this wouldn't even affect the majority of the player base either, and would need to be done again any time there's a significant change in endgame.

    Tera isn't exactly a new game any more either, and it doesn't attract a very high constant stream of players. If the levelling process was slowed down significantly you would simply further separate the newer players from the majority of the playerbase who are all at endgame. It would make the new player experience less appealing overall, believe it or not but a fast levelling experience actually does make for a better new player experience even if it doesn't exactly teach players anything that's directly relevant to endgame.

    Right now teaching new players about how they should play in endgame should be done once they reach level 65. That's when players finally have access to most of the tools they need in order to actually efficiently play their class and learn how to play the game to the best of their ability. This includes both general understanding of their class as well as more in-depth system knowledge of things like crystals, glyphs, gear rolls and back-damage.

    The problem is implementing it. Lots of games don't create these sorts of tutorials because often times these systems change over time or are greatly affected by the player "meta". Thus these tutorials end up needing to be constantly updated to prevent them from becoming outdated which is a difficult task that eats up resources. This is also why these tutorials, when they exist, tend to be at endgame where they can be concise and focus on the endgame aspect of the system rather than early on where they need to cover the system at the early parts of the game as well as how it changes as you progress.

    This is why a lot of games rely on third party guides, forums and wiki's, because the player base can update guides and tutorials on content faster and more consistently than the developers can, and most importantly without impacting developer manpower that would end up being dedicated to those tasks.

    Really it's a rare case of EME being able to do more than BHS can in a situation for once. Giving players incentive to create community hubs with updated guides on all the games content (like but not necessarily exactly Essentialmana) by offering to promote or feature them on the games website or other easily accessible, officially promoted services is something EME can do to help guide players into endgame content without the help of BHS.

    Of course this relies on EME, who is currently understaffed and in the past few years has been slowly shying away from doing anything with the community. The last guide contest I can remember was probably for the original release of Wonderholme, although I might have missed some since, EME doesn't seem to be a stickler for accurate content right now let alone promoting community content.
    The first 2 pages of the guides and help forum has a total of 0 guides. Hell the recent Godsfall patch notes are filled with wrong, outdated and misleading content, which resulted in players having to make their own, accurate version of the patch notes.

    TL;DR: Slower levelling wont teach payers anything more than now, and to make it so that levelling content does teach players would require effort to create and keep updated, and would be best offered at 65 rather than during levelling. The better option would be to have EME promote the creation of player guides and publicise them, but EME don't seem inclined to do that at current.

    If you have a better solution than "Make levelling slower and tell people what to do." feel free, it's a good discussion to have but it would need a fair bit of input to do something that wont require lots of developer input since that likely wont ever happen.
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