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65 levels of learning nothing

135

Comments

  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Equitas wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure I covered this before. "I don't care if it's Ravenous Gorge or Ruinous Manor, people should have crystals on. They need to be in that habit." When they're dying in 2-3 hits, and only managing to heal 10-15% health at a time, then I'd say this is especially true. It's not even that they had no crystals or were performing poorly that bothered me as much as the lashing out and throwing words around because I tried to offer them advice. They chose to let their ego get in the way. I expect people to put that to the side around me.

    Ok so let me get this straight. It wasn't the lack of crystals that made you tick, it was the fact that he "didn't listen to your advice". If that's the case, then like I've said before in my previous response: (a) I don't see the point of using him/her as an example to support your stance on the topic, and (b) you're in no place to tell someone what to do.
    Sure, you can give advice, but whether the target player wants to take it or not is up to him (aka his problem). By "[expecting] people to put that to the side around [you]", aren't you guilty of "[letting your] ego get in the way" as well? Don't be a hypocrite man.



    (Anything written below this sentence is actually digressing from the main topic, but is relevant to and directed to the OP.)

    I would also like to question again if the said healer was indeed dying needlessly, since you did not respond to a similar question in my previous response. If they were, then I would agree that they should have had armor crystals equipped at the very least. If they were not, then I have no reason to expect them to have crystals equipped since it's their character, and they can play however they want if they can do so without affecting the party negatively. Not to mention that having crystals equipped or not as a healer does not increase nor decrease the efficiency of the dungeon run, since healers shouldn't be expected to DPS anyway.

    Assuming said healer was doing a proper job, then why should it bother you if they can do so without crystals? Unless you're the one guilty of letting your ego get in the way, thinking that everyone has to have crystals equipped even if they are doing their job properly, I cannot find any other reason. You can argue that the healing vyrsks give bonus healing, but it's only a 10% increase with all 4 vyrsks equipped, and I've seen many healers use attack speed/grounding vyrsks instead, so I don't find it a valid point.

    As a similar example, I won't be ashamed to admit that I occasionally run RG as a healer without using nostrums cuz I'm just lazy, but in no way do I hold the party back since as said above, it "does not increase nor decrease the efficiency of the dungeon run" as long as I keep everyone alive and provide buffs and debuffs. You can't just compare healers to tanks/dps since their jobs are entirely different.

    All in all, from your responses, it seems that what's bothering you isn't that the game teaches nothing while providing fast leveling. Instead, you're bothered by the [filtered] attitude of players in general, and your ego is beginning to place you on a moral high ground such that you feel that "bad" players should be listening to your advice, and them refusing to do so is hurting your pride. My advice (similar to my previous response): get over it. Not in a demeaning manner, but for the sake of your sanity.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Haloist I find not a reason why someone should not use crystals when doing dungeons. The game gives you lots of them in the leveling progress that you will have enought cruxes to fill your bank with them.
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    @ElinUsagi That's not the point though. You could have forgotten/broke your crystals, you could be a scrub who does not know that crystals should be equipped, whatever. We can argue all day if there is a valid reason as to why crystals were not equipped, and there will be no resolution, but again, that's not the point.
    What I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter if you're doing your job well as a healer.
  • Haloist wrote: »
    @ElinUsagi That's not the point though. You could have forgotten/broke your crystals, you could be a scrub who does not know that crystals should be equipped, whatever. We can argue all day if there is a valid reason as to why crystals were not equipped, and there will be no resolution, but again, that's not the point.
    What I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter if you're doing your job well as a healer.

    Everytime you complete a VG quest you are rewarded a scythera crystals box with cruxes before you hit lvl 65. After 65 you are awarded crystals from Dougal by doing the story quest line. But even not doing the 65 quest line you still have the cruxes in abundance.
    As a healer you simply CANNOT DO YOUR JOB WELL WITHOUT CRYSTALS. If you don't put on cruxes you won't put on zyrks/vyrks. Without those your heal will suck if your gear is low and won't provide heal lines stats.
    Hardy cruxes are a must, or else you will constantly die at every hit of the boss and the whole party will be in danger because of you. Healer cannot be w/o crystals.
    Period.
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    @ElinUsagi
    @CuteAngel
    I gave the example in my post earlier, where I said I recently leveled a new alt priest. I hit 65 and I threw everything out of the inventory. I took dougals guardians boxes and accepted the quest. It gives you no hardies. I just enchanted to full twist and queued for the rg/kc/sf questline without crystals on.
    Nothing happened to me and my performance, I healed without troubles and did everything perfectly. Which I'd why I said to the op his example reminded me of what happened with my priest, since I also got some know-it-all asking me where my crystals where lmao
    This stuff can happen.

    Also, healers don't need crystals to perform well. In fact we don't even need gear to perform well lol. That changes with awakening I guess but as it was up until now, if you knew how to dodge you could do a run of ANY dungeon available right now and perform flawlessly without gear and crystals. They're just a convenience for healers because they make us perform better. We're faster with them, tankier, and our attacks are faster if you use atk speed vyrsks like me but that's it. You can do without all of these things in any boss fight.
    Hell I know people that used to do hm dungeon runs without a chest piece for the hell of it!
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well I don't think that slowing the leveling period on itself would solve anything. If you want to teach someone to use crystals and a basic handle on their profession, you just teach that instead of forcing a longer grind. And leaving that responsibility on the mass of players is irresponsible of the devs/publishers, mostly knowing how toxic a community can get.

    From the community part, we could always get a voluntary mentor system to partially solve things. Nothing official. Just a bunch of people, or a guild that runs around picking up newbies and teaching them the ropes. But we cannot really solve all of the problems nor convince all of the new players. As I said, some will move on before bothering to learn. All I can say in that regard to you is to keep the call up and see who will listen. Perhaps you may need/want to climb to a position where more people listen to you. Develop your charisma and become a personality. People like to follow personalities, after all. Twitch streaming may be a good start for that.

    As for what the devs can do, there's also the matter of discovery. While the game could do a better job to newbies by showing a general profession example, it should always be up to the player to discover the finer aspects of their class. Like rotations and boss patterns and such. This part was used to be left to discovery in the old games (nobody told me how to kill bosses in NES Ninja Gaiden), but the current gamer mentality dictates that you should know everything, spoilers be damned, before you even enter the fray. That flow and current is too strong to stop, and people are happy with it, so everyone else is expected to follow suit. Again, like above, getting yourself in a position where you can be heard by more people, and get people in a listening mood, would be best.

    So if you want big change, get ready to put in big work.
  • CassandraTRCassandraTR ✭✭✭✭✭
    First, 412 dungeons can be carried by 1 good geared dps or tank. The dungeon shouldn't take longer than 6/7 minutes even if the other 4 people are in guardian. A priest having zero crystals in 412s is not the end of the world, and you look like a control freak in that pic, and in this entire thread (but that's nothing new.) The only 412 that even requires healing is the 1st boss of SF because of bombs, everything else you literally don't get hit.

    Second, if someone is that bad, they're going to be gated by the 412s for a long time, as they won't be able to get the ilevel for 431, and they *will* get kicked when they show up to TR with no crystals. If they aren't getting the basics down, they'll get kicked, and they'll eventually figure it out.

    If you choose to run IMS, be ready for bad players. If you don't want that, make an LFG or get your guildmembers. I would say use your friend list, but I'm not entirely sure you have any.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    First, 412 dungeons can be carried by 1 good geared dps or tank. The dungeon shouldn't take longer than 6/7 minutes even if the other 4 people are in guardian. A priest having zero crystals in 412s is not the end of the world, and you look like a control freak in that pic, and in this entire thread (but that's nothing new.) The only 412 that even requires healing is the 1st boss of SF because of bombs, everything else you literally don't get hit.

    Second, if someone is that bad, they're going to be gated by the 412s for a long time, as they won't be able to get the ilevel for 431, and they *will* get kicked when they show up to TR with no crystals. If they aren't getting the basics down, they'll get kicked, and they'll eventually figure it out.

    If you choose to run IMS, be ready for bad players. If you don't want that, make an LFG or get your guildmembers. I would say use your friend list, but I'm not entirely sure you have any.

    The peculiarity with people like OP is that they won't be happy to go the LFG or friends way. They want the whole game to change to their view. Hence why I proposed him to do the "big work" required for it. IF he manages to do it, fine, we will be all playing by his tune. If not, nothing will change and this thread will be yet another archive to this forum.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Equitas wrote: »

    You had it and then you posted this [filtered]. Gotta get on that bandwagon, right?
    Not the case. If I was going to throw bad stuff at you I would have said "The problem with OP". I don't see your will to change everything as a problem. It's just part of some human beings, and as society taught me long ago, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But, I also expressed that for you to achieve this specific goal, you need to have more than one thread in a forum. You need to work very hard to promote your views, or seek the help of those who are at a position to move others into it.

    This could be the beginning of something, but do not let anger and impatience ruin it. You are raising a flag, so it's up to you to run with that flag until you can safely pass it along.
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Equitas wrote: »
    CornishRex wrote: »
    Holy hell dude, read my post without jumping to conclusions REEEE
    You're doing the same mistake you did to the person in that run without crystals. You're assuming they don't know what they're doing and you're putting yourself on a higher ground so you could "educate" them. Pls
    In fact, even after they prove to you they do know what they're doing you're belittling them by saying they're just throwing "buzzwords" in order to keep up in your delusion that you're the good and knowledgeable player here, not them. Just ugh
    Were they using e-stars correctly? Was triple nemesis debuff uptime close to 100%? Did they heal people up properly?

    0/10 bait. Not even a 1 for getting me to respond.

    You know, it's pretty damning that your response to them asking what exactly the priest was doing is to dodge the question and dismiss it as "bait". I'm not sure if you're seeing it, but a few of us certainly do.
  • MelyodisMelyodis ✭✭✭
    Equitas wrote: »
    Decreasing the speed at which players level wont solve the problem though.

    Maybe it won't, but my assumption has always been that the leveling process was meant to be a glorified tutorial that taught you how to play. Scaling the pace back would at least give people a little more time. There's always going to be variables and there's rarely any 100% blanket solution to anything.
    Haloist wrote: »
    Equitas wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure I covered this before. "I don't care if it's Ravenous Gorge or Ruinous Manor, people should have crystals on. They need to be in that habit." When they're dying in 2-3 hits, and only managing to heal 10-15% health at a time, then I'd say this is especially true. It's not even that they had no crystals or were performing poorly that bothered me as much as the lashing out and throwing words around because I tried to offer them advice. They chose to let their ego get in the way. I expect people to put that to the side around me.

    Ok so let me get this straight. It wasn't the lack of crystals that made you tick, it was the fact that he "didn't listen to your advice". If that's the case, then like I've said before in my previous response: (a) I don't see the point of using him/her as an example to support your stance on the topic, and (b) you're in no place to tell someone what to do.
    Sure, you can give advice, but whether the target player wants to take it or not is up to him (aka his problem). By "[expecting] people to put that to the side around [you]", aren't you guilty of "[letting your] ego get in the way" as well? Don't be a hypocrite man.



    (Anything written below this sentence is actually digressing from the main topic, but is relevant to and directed to the OP.)

    I would also like to question again if the said healer was indeed dying needlessly, since you did not respond to a similar question in my previous response. If they were, then I would agree that they should have had armor crystals equipped at the very least. If they were not, then I have no reason to expect them to have crystals equipped since it's their character, and they can play however they want if they can do so without affecting the party negatively. Not to mention that having crystals equipped or not as a healer does not increase nor decrease the efficiency of the dungeon run, since healers shouldn't be expected to DPS anyway.

    Assuming said healer was doing a proper job, then why should it bother you if they can do so without crystals? Unless you're the one guilty of letting your ego get in the way, thinking that everyone has to have crystals equipped even if they are doing their job properly, I cannot find any other reason. You can argue that the healing vyrsks give bonus healing, but it's only a 10% increase with all 4 vyrsks equipped, and I've seen many healers use attack speed/grounding vyrsks instead, so I don't find it a valid point.

    As a similar example, I won't be ashamed to admit that I occasionally run RG as a healer without using nostrums cuz I'm just lazy, but in no way do I hold the party back since as said above, it "does not increase nor decrease the efficiency of the dungeon run" as long as I keep everyone alive and provide buffs and debuffs. You can't just compare healers to tanks/dps since their jobs are entirely different.

    All in all, from your responses, it seems that what's bothering you isn't that the game teaches nothing while providing fast leveling. Instead, you're bothered by the [filtered] attitude of players in general, and your ego is beginning to place you on a moral high ground such that you feel that "bad" players should be listening to your advice, and them refusing to do so is hurting your pride. My advice (similar to my previous response): get over it. Not in a demeaning manner, but for the sake of your sanity.

    I wish you could have just summed your post up with "The point went way over my head and I haven't even bothered trying to understand it." That's basically what you're telling me here, except with an unnecessary amount of extra lines.
    First, 412 dungeons can be carried by 1 good geared dps or tank. The dungeon shouldn't take longer than 6/7 minutes even if the other 4 people are in guardian. A priest having zero crystals in 412s is not the end of the world, and you look like a control freak in that pic, and in this entire thread (but that's nothing new.) The only 412 that even requires healing is the 1st boss of SF because of bombs, everything else you literally don't get hit.

    Second, if someone is that bad, they're going to be gated by the 412s for a long time, as they won't be able to get the ilevel for 431, and they *will* get kicked when they show up to TR with no crystals. If they aren't getting the basics down, they'll get kicked, and they'll eventually figure it out.

    If you choose to run IMS, be ready for bad players. If you don't want that, make an LFG or get your guildmembers. I would say use your friend list, but I'm not entirely sure you have any.

    I was wondering how long it was going to take you to get on my case again, making snide remarks and speaking on things you know nothing about. You're always at the ready, watching my posts and seeing if there's any way you can contradict me. Who hurt you?
    Nopi wrote: »
    First, 412 dungeons can be carried by 1 good geared dps or tank. The dungeon shouldn't take longer than 6/7 minutes even if the other 4 people are in guardian. A priest having zero crystals in 412s is not the end of the world, and you look like a control freak in that pic, and in this entire thread (but that's nothing new.) The only 412 that even requires healing is the 1st boss of SF because of bombs, everything else you literally don't get hit.

    Second, if someone is that bad, they're going to be gated by the 412s for a long time, as they won't be able to get the ilevel for 431, and they *will* get kicked when they show up to TR with no crystals. If they aren't getting the basics down, they'll get kicked, and they'll eventually figure it out.

    If you choose to run IMS, be ready for bad players. If you don't want that, make an LFG or get your guildmembers. I would say use your friend list, but I'm not entirely sure you have any.

    The peculiarity with people like OP is that they won't be happy to go the LFG or friends way. They want the whole game to change to their view. Hence why I proposed him to do the "big work" required for it. IF he manages to do it, fine, we will be all playing by his tune. If not, nothing will change and this thread will be yet another archive to this forum.

    You had it and then you posted this [filtered]. Gotta get on that bandwagon, right?

    @CobaltDragon / @seandynamite / whoever, go ahead and close this. If people are just going to be deliberately obtuse, then I don't really see any need for this conversation to continue.

    hi op question to you the priest had no crytals you said did he/she died in the run? he/she said they run harder content didn't it hit you that the priest may be a elite player I've been playing tera for more than 3 years now and many of us in here can run those content without crystals but yes i understand your post but this is how tera is you need to learn for yourself or seek help instead of the nicks and nack being handed to you you like every other mmo and when you learn if makes you feel good, "oh so thats how nice got it".

    There are many new players today who may not have crystals guess why they don't have enough gold to buy they don't have elite to get plenty vanguard credit to get crystals we must take all this into mind. We elite players are too selfish cause to we want every run to to be 1min long.

    TERA IS UNIQUE it has the best combat system ever which is unique manual target system everything you have to work towards in the game including knowledge of your class trial and error or the hand me way/easy way watching guides.

    I agree the leveling system is too fast but one thing i'm sure the game does show what crystals you need to used by giving a crystal box with tanking or dps crystals for you class that should give new players and idea as to what crystals to use it also says it the system message that you get. One thing that EME can do to help with new player learning their class also is make kumas royal level 65 only and let player level doing pve only this is my fix/ solution.
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    In regard to the original point, in my 4 or so years of playing the game, no, this game does not teach you anything, and the price for failure is pretty high despite that. In most other games (that I've played), you mess up against a dungeon boss or instance, you get to try again, and again, and again, and again until you get it right. And then you can keep going until you can't get it wrong (assuming you have the means to do so as some areas of some games are tied to limited resources, such as with "maps" in Path of Exile or the "keys" in Warframe).

    TERA's endgame (such as it is) doesn't give you that luxury due to its entry system. If something happens and you need to leave the party before you had the chance to complete the dungeon, too bad (Elite status notwithstanding). You can't reenter unless you either wait for the dungeon counter to reset normally (the timing of which can be obscure since EME refuses to put in a system that converts their time into someone's local time) or pony up the Vanguard points for a reset scroll (which, by the way, has a 5-[filtered]-hour [filtered] cooldown), which of course could be used for something of possibly greater value such as, say, crystals. So if you're not Elite and you prefer to "feel out" how certain mechanics work, you better be in for the long haul.

    Another thing... crystals, right? And while we're at it, let's talk about gear stat lines too. In fact, we'll start with stat lines. While the game does imply that certain rolls are better than others, it doesn't explain why other than the fact that your gear score increases faster while enchanting if you have those lines. The game also uses obtuse numbers and formulas to calculate damage output, thus leaving little room for theorycrafting and optimizing. Crystals introduce flat numbers, but those mean little without being able to preview potential damage output (same with stat rolls). And to top all that off, with the exceptions of Saleron's Sky Garden, Kelsaik's Nest, and the argon dungeons (I forget the names), the leveling dungeons don't offer anything in the way of preparing a player for the endgame dungeons outside of "go here, hit stuff, try not to die".

    And looking up info online? I literally just did a search for whatever I could find in regards to resources of information. I found: 2 separate wikis with little to no information (hell, one of those wikis didn't even have class info past reapers), an RP-specific forum, a few articles about trying to optimize performance, an IGN article from the P2P days, a decent article about gathering, and Essential Mana, and even the latter can be untrustworthy at times.

    Then there's TERA's (coughs) "community". I won't go into too much detail here, suffice to say that there's a much greater dichotomy between the "casual" and "hardcore" player in this game than some others I've played. I remember trying to gather a party for Sirjuka Gallery (remember that?) and made to tell everyone who joined that I was new and wanted to experience it and learn. Players cycled in and out the party for what I think was 30 solid minutes before I finally said "F**k this." and gave up. I never did do that dungeon...

    Long and short, newer players don't learn anything outside the basics because there's no reason to. The leveling process is very by-the-numbers until you get to the very end, at which the game itself assumes you know certain things that nobody bothered to mention. Furthermore, outside information often tends to be either scarce or of dubious quality, and asking questions has a greater chance of you getting rebuffed than helped.

    At least, that's what I've noticed.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Wall-o-text+At least, that's what I've noticed.
    This. ALL of this. And in a way OP can use to sell his message across as well.

  • Kira98Kira98 ✭✭✭
    Just join to Guild and make all questions of you need. Problem solve.
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