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Loot-boxes.

2

Comments

  • Nemmar wrote: »
    Stricter regulation will protect consumers
    Protect consumers from what, their own spending habits?

    Personally feel that if a person can't control their own spending regardless of the stimulus presented to them the problem lies with themselves as well as if particular places/countries are making a fuss over optional spending, simply don't publish/make accessible those type of games to them.

    Better yet add a lootbox clause to the TOS/EULA where it states that the game contains loot boxes and players are agreeing to spend responsibly if they so choose to engage lootboxes with money. It will inform potential players up front what they may be getting themselves into and current players of the update. If that's not enough disclose the odds (if it will stop arguments in their tracks, if it won't leave the odds out). If players agree, great, if they don't, don't play.

    Over time more and more people have been trying to weasel out of responsibility for their own actions more and more, and not just in regard to video games. Blaming a video game for not being able to control one's impulsive spending is a bit of a reach.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    Stricter regulation will protect consumers
    Protect consumers from what, their own spending habits?

    Exactly this.

    The issue at hand is the bad habits from the people spending money on virtual stuff, something that won't give them back anything of value in return.

    That's why legal laws about gambling doesnt apply into games at America, because they didn't spend anything of value to get something of value in return.

    No need to bring laws and all that kind of bs when people wasting more money than they should do are the ones at fault, or now should we make laws limiting about how much money people should spend on games?

    Pls, stop being ridiculous and learn to selfcontrol your urges.
  • DatGeekDatGeek ✭✭✭
    Most loot boxes are considered gambling, period. This has also been confirmed by tons of lawyers as well as developers around the globe after carefully studying how they work, which is, to no ones' surprise, always against you.

    More and more countries are banning these loot boxes already and by the end of 2019 most if not all european countries will have a ban on loot boxes in online games.

    @ElinUsagi

    The value you spend is real money. If the loot boxes were free, then you would not have spent anything of value, but the loot boxes are not free now, are they? No. You can only obtain them spending something of value aka real money.

    It's not so much about urges, it's more about the amount of incentives you are being fed visually every day to buy said loot boxes. It's basic psychology, (which is what they use when designing these loot boxes) used to make weak minded people buy virtual goods using real money with a chance to get the item advertised on the store page for said loot boxes, which again, is a form of gambling, whether you like it or not.

    You are met with the first incentive when you log into the game or most if not all mmorpgs these days. Then there's the other incentives which you get through system announcements when other players obtain the main prize from a loot box.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    @DatGeek

    You can read what are you garantued to get from those boxes, it is not a real gambling because in real gambling you lose if the outcome is not in your favor, and nope, you are not spending money on lootboxes because you already converted it into a digital currency that has no value in real life and you will get something without value in real life.

    So if you are kind then tell me what is the diference in real value from the minimum prize on a lootbox vs the real value from the best prize... exactly nothing, their value is nothing.

    And remember this, when the game gets old and has less players than needed to get the servers up then the servers will be shutdown and you will get nothing from all those things you bought with your virtual currency because it is what is worth in real life, "nothing".
  • NemmarNemmar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    Stricter regulation will protect consumers
    Protect consumers from what, their own spending habits?

    Personally feel that if a person can't control their own spending regardless of the stimulus presented to them the problem lies with themselves as well as if particular places/countries are making a fuss over optional spending, simply don't publish/make accessible those type of games to them.

    Better yet add a lootbox clause to the TOS/EULA where it states that the game contains loot boxes and players are agreeing to spend responsibly if they so choose to engage lootboxes with money. It will inform potential players up front what they may be getting themselves into and current players of the update. If that's not enough disclose the odds (if it will stop arguments in their tracks, if it won't leave the odds out). If players agree, great, if they don't, don't play.

    Over time more and more people have been trying to weasel out of responsibility for their own actions more and more, and not just in regard to video games. Blaming a video game for not being able to control one's impulsive spending is a bit of a reach.

    That shows how little you know. Adding such clauses is illegal. The contract would be void. EULA's are already very fragile as they don't let you play the game you paid for without accepting them and don't give a return policy if you don't.

    Sorry, but i know that in your country it's "normal" and every lie goes for companies to indirectly kill and ruin the lives of everyone, be it by adding certain saps in all food until bread tastes like cake, selling guns as protection in a country where everyone can have one or where a greedy suit can monopolize and rise prices of medication exponentially, but in europe we have higher standards of life. We don't get fecked by greedy companies and [filtered] the ones that try to do it to us.
    Wich is why it's a much better place to live in. In here lootboxes are obviously gambling. In your world... who the hell knows? Imagine what you want. That is how guys like Trump get to be president.

  • NemmarNemmar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    @DatGeek

    You can read what are you garantued to get from those boxes, it is not a real gambling because in real gambling you lose if the outcome is not in your favor, and nope, you are not spending money on lootboxes because you already converted it into a digital currency that has no value in real life and you will get something without value in real life.

    So if you are kind then tell me what is the diference in real value from the minimum prize on a lootbox vs the real value from the best prize... exactly nothing, their value is nothing.

    And remember this, when the game gets old and has less players than needed to get the servers up then the servers will be shutdown and you will get nothing from all those things you bought with your virtual currency because it is what is worth in real life, "nothing".

    Enough with the lies and poor apologistic rhetoric. It is gambling in europe by law, as i linked before. The rulling is out. In the US you can imagine whatever fantasy worlds you want. It's not like it doesn't already happen.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Nemmar wrote: »
    Sorry, but i know that in your country it's "normal" for companies to indirectly kill and ruin the lives of everyone, be it by adding certain saps in all food until bread tastes like cake, selling guns as protection in a country where everyone can have one or where a greedy suit can monopolize and rise prices of medication exponentially, but in europe we have higher standards of life. We don't get fecked by greedy companies and with [filtered] the ones that try to do it to us.
    Wich is why it's a much better place to live in.

    Last time a traveled to Europe I could see clearly that most countries there are not better to live as some people says. I can count with one hand fingers the countries from Europe that falls on your description but every other country there is not like that.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Nemmar wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    @DatGeek

    You can read what are you garantued to get from those boxes, it is not a real gambling because in real gambling you lose if the outcome is not in your favor, and nope, you are not spending money on lootboxes because you already converted it into a digital currency that has no value in real life and you will get something without value in real life.

    So if you are kind then tell me what is the diference in real value from the minimum prize on a lootbox vs the real value from the best prize... exactly nothing, their value is nothing.

    And remember this, when the game gets old and has less players than needed to get the servers up then the servers will be shutdown and you will get nothing from all those things you bought with your virtual currency because it is what is worth in real life, "nothing".

    Enough with the lies and poor apologistic rhetoric. It is gambling in europe by law, as i linked before. The rulling is out. In the US you can imagine whatever fantasy worlds you want. It's not like it doesn't already happen.

    Not in Europe, not all counties in Europe have the same laws. The country where you live is not all countries in Europe.
    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    Mind to read this from your link.
  • simitsimit ✭✭
    There a [filtered] practice its that simple, i dont mind mtx, heck i welcome them but the lootbox is just the filthiest, greediest iteration of all predatory practices tbh and hopefully there erradicated from western gaming but i doubt it.

    I dont mind mtx as i said but only as a direct purchase or bundle
  • DatGeek wrote: »
    Most loot boxes are considered gambling, period.
    Keyword, considered.

    What something is considered doesn't make it so, it's simply treating it as if it were something else, if that was the case loot boxes would be called/referred to as gambling instead of simply "considered" time after time.
    DatGeek wrote: »
    More and more countries are banning these loot boxes already and by the end of 2019 most if not all european countries will have a ban on loot boxes in online games.

    And more than likely games with loot boxes will simply be unavailable for play in those countries.
    DatGeek wrote: »
    The value you spend is real money. If the loot boxes were free, then you would not have spent anything of value, but the loot boxes are not free now, are they? No. You can only obtain them spending something of value aka real money.
    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    With TERA for example the trade broker has various items from loot boxes that players are selling for gold, get the gold > buy the item > essentially no RNG involved for the buyer.
    The contents of loot boxes can be obtained with gold. The thing is a number of players that want loot box contents don't want to go the gold route, they rather spend real money and then when they don't get what they want, complain, it still doesn't erase the readily available gold route that they are consciously not participating in.
    Nemmar wrote: »
    That shows how little you know. Adding such clauses is illegal.
    It's actually vice versa, both sentences. Such a clause would clearly inform players of loot boxes within the game and that spending responsibly is their responsibility and that if they fail to do so, it's not the fault of the game.

    If such a clause was illegal then the age requirements contained within various TOS/EULA's would essentially be illegal as well because those clauses REQUIRE players to be at least a certain age and if they are not that age to have parental/guardian consent therefore if a child gets into trouble via an online game that they shouldn't have been playing anyway, well...
  • DatGeekDatGeek ✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    @DatGeek

    You can read what are you garantued to get from those boxes, it is not a real gambling because in real gambling you lose if the outcome is not in your favor, and nope, you are not spending money on lootboxes because you already converted it into a digital currency that has no value in real life and you will get something without value in real life.

    So if you are kind then tell me what is the diference in real value from the minimum prize on a lootbox vs the real value from the best prize... exactly nothing, their value is nothing.

    And remember this, when the game gets old and has less players than needed to get the servers up then the servers will be shutdown and you will get nothing from all those things you bought with your virtual currency because it is what is worth in real life, "nothing".

    Enough with the lies and poor apologistic rhetoric. It is gambling in europe by law, as i linked before. The rulling is out. In the US you can imagine whatever fantasy worlds you want. It's not like it doesn't already happen.

    Not in Europe, not all counties in Europe have the same laws. The country where you live is not all countries in Europe.
    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    Mind to read this from your link.

    And that is where you are wrong.

    What you buy with your real money is a product. A digital product, regardless of whether it's in-game currency or a costume. It's a product, and a part of another product, and digital purchases are governed by the consumer right laws. If you buy currency from EME for TERA and you spend it in-game, you've spent your value in real money. If you buy a costume, you've then bought something of value since it is a digital product.

    When you spend real money to buy a loot box, that has a hidden chance of giving you a main prize item, it's not different from buying chips at a casino to use on craps or a slot machine. It's still gambling in every sense.

    Let's say you buy in-game currenty to spend in the cash shop and you don't get your currency. What rights do you have? In the US? Well, here in Europe, we are protected by our consumer rights, and just because EME is in the US, and BHS in KR they still have to abide by our laws when releasing a product over here and their TOS/EULA is not above the law in any country outside of where it has been written.

    Most of the stuff written in a games' TOS/EULA would never fly in a court of law outside of the US.

    EU Countries have this thing called the European Commission, i suggest you look it up.

    While not every country in Europe is part of the EU, most of them apply the same laws as the EU countries. Especially when it comes to consumer rights and sales, both physical and digital products.
  • DatGeekDatGeek ✭✭✭
    @TriNitY706
    It's actually vice versa, both sentences. Such a clause would clearly inform players of loot boxes within the game and that spending responsibly is their responsibility and that if they fail to do so, it's not the fault of the game.

    If such a clause was illegal then the age requirements contained within various TOS/EULA's would essentially be illegal as well because those clauses REQUIRE players to be at least a certain age and if they are not that age to have parental/guardian consent therefore if a child gets into trouble via an online game that they shouldn't have been playing anyway, well...

    Wrong. On so many levels actually..

    A clause like that would be invalidated in a court of law because it'll be ruled as an attempt to remove any responsibility from the publisher and developer.

    There are specific laws in Europe that protects the consumers for that very reason.

    When it comes to age restrictions, they are nothing but an indicator that the game is intended for x age and there is no way to tell whether or not the person playing is x age to begin with since most parents these days are lazy as hell and just let their kids buy games through the digital stores using their parents credit cards to play games that are intended for players way above their own age.

    In retail stores where you buy a physical copy of a game, you can be told that you're not old enough and they won't sell you the game. It has happened before. Even in my town, and more often than not i might add.

    An online store selling digital products doesn't have the freedom of doing that. If a child is using their parents credit card details then the store will not notice anything else than a person using his/her credit card and that it is registered to someone above the age restriction of said product.

    Long story short, you are comparing two completely different things here that can't and shouldn't even be compared to one and other in the first place.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    DatGeek wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    @DatGeek

    You can read what are you garantued to get from those boxes, it is not a real gambling because in real gambling you lose if the outcome is not in your favor, and nope, you are not spending money on lootboxes because you already converted it into a digital currency that has no value in real life and you will get something without value in real life.

    So if you are kind then tell me what is the diference in real value from the minimum prize on a lootbox vs the real value from the best prize... exactly nothing, their value is nothing.

    And remember this, when the game gets old and has less players than needed to get the servers up then the servers will be shutdown and you will get nothing from all those things you bought with your virtual currency because it is what is worth in real life, "nothing".

    Enough with the lies and poor apologistic rhetoric. It is gambling in europe by law, as i linked before. The rulling is out. In the US you can imagine whatever fantasy worlds you want. It's not like it doesn't already happen.

    Not in Europe, not all counties in Europe have the same laws. The country where you live is not all countries in Europe.
    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    Mind to read this from your link.

    And that is where you are wrong.

    What you buy with your real money is a product. A digital product, regardless of whether it's in-game currency or a costume. It's a product, and a part of another product, and digital purchases are governed by the consumer right laws. If you buy currency from EME for TERA and you spend it in-game, you've spent your value in real money. If you buy a costume, you've then bought something of value since it is a digital product.

    When you spend real money to buy a loot box, that has a hidden chance of giving you a main prize item, it's not different from buying chips at a casino to use on craps or a slot machine. It's still gambling in every sense.

    Let's say you buy in-game currenty to spend in the cash shop and you don't get your currency. What rights do you have? In the US? Well, here in Europe, we are protected by our consumer rights, and just because EME is in the US, and BHS in KR they still have to abide by our laws when releasing a product over here and their TOS/EULA is not above the law in any country outside of where it has been written.

    Most of the stuff written in a games' TOS/EULA would never fly in a court of law outside of the US.

    EU Countries have this thing called the European Commission, i suggest you look it up.

    While not every country in Europe is part of the EU, most of them apply the same laws as the EU countries. Especially when it comes to consumer rights and sales, both physical and digital products.

    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    How convenient for you and the other user to ignore this.

    Economic value from lootboxes on TERA or their contents = 0.

    Stuff on TERA is not like stuff from steam, where you get things that you can use as real money and use it on diferent products from diferent games from diferent companies, however in TERA you cant do that with the contents of the lootboxes.
  • edited April 2018
    DatGeek wrote: »
    When you spend real money to buy a loot box, that has a hidden chance of giving you a main prize item, it's not different from buying chips at a casino to use on craps or a slot machine. It's still gambling in every sense.

    The fact is that, despite your insistence, no courts in markets where TERA is available/sold have yet ruled this way, whether in EU or otherwise. In certain very specific situations, various countries have ruled they fell afoul local regulation in certain aspects (such as fair advertising laws, or when the makers openly support outside-the-game trading for cash). But there's no point in getting people's hopes up as if this were already a decided thing and that it's just a matter of time before all lootboxes are removed. The whole situation (and the whole legal argument) is much more nuanced than this, and as of this time has not yet been decided.
  • NemmarNemmar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    @DatGeek

    You can read what are you garantued to get from those boxes, it is not a real gambling because in real gambling you lose if the outcome is not in your favor, and nope, you are not spending money on lootboxes because you already converted it into a digital currency that has no value in real life and you will get something without value in real life.

    So if you are kind then tell me what is the diference in real value from the minimum prize on a lootbox vs the real value from the best prize... exactly nothing, their value is nothing.

    And remember this, when the game gets old and has less players than needed to get the servers up then the servers will be shutdown and you will get nothing from all those things you bought with your virtual currency because it is what is worth in real life, "nothing".

    Enough with the lies and poor apologistic rhetoric. It is gambling in europe by law, as i linked before. The rulling is out. In the US you can imagine whatever fantasy worlds you want. It's not like it doesn't already happen.

    Not in Europe, not all counties in Europe have the same laws. The country where you live is not all countries in Europe.
    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    Mind to read this from your link.

    You don't get how things work here. The Netherlands and Belgium have declared them gambling. This comes to the EU, and soon to all EU countries will regulate this stuff. We are not separate countries here, we got a regulatory body on the EU.

    As to life being better in europe. It am sure it is, at least from Portugal to Germany and scandinavia. I've never been to eastern europe, but i do mean western and central europe. You just have to compare health care systems to see the difference. Obviously consumer protection laws aswell and frequency of shootings or even food quality and educational systems.

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