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Loot-boxes.

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Comments

  • NemmarNemmar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    DatGeek wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    @DatGeek

    You can read what are you garantued to get from those boxes, it is not a real gambling because in real gambling you lose if the outcome is not in your favor, and nope, you are not spending money on lootboxes because you already converted it into a digital currency that has no value in real life and you will get something without value in real life.

    So if you are kind then tell me what is the diference in real value from the minimum prize on a lootbox vs the real value from the best prize... exactly nothing, their value is nothing.

    And remember this, when the game gets old and has less players than needed to get the servers up then the servers will be shutdown and you will get nothing from all those things you bought with your virtual currency because it is what is worth in real life, "nothing".

    Enough with the lies and poor apologistic rhetoric. It is gambling in europe by law, as i linked before. The rulling is out. In the US you can imagine whatever fantasy worlds you want. It's not like it doesn't already happen.

    Not in Europe, not all counties in Europe have the same laws. The country where you live is not all countries in Europe.
    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    Mind to read this from your link.

    And that is where you are wrong.

    What you buy with your real money is a product. A digital product, regardless of whether it's in-game currency or a costume. It's a product, and a part of another product, and digital purchases are governed by the consumer right laws. If you buy currency from EME for TERA and you spend it in-game, you've spent your value in real money. If you buy a costume, you've then bought something of value since it is a digital product.

    When you spend real money to buy a loot box, that has a hidden chance of giving you a main prize item, it's not different from buying chips at a casino to use on craps or a slot machine. It's still gambling in every sense.

    Let's say you buy in-game currenty to spend in the cash shop and you don't get your currency. What rights do you have? In the US? Well, here in Europe, we are protected by our consumer rights, and just because EME is in the US, and BHS in KR they still have to abide by our laws when releasing a product over here and their TOS/EULA is not above the law in any country outside of where it has been written.

    Most of the stuff written in a games' TOS/EULA would never fly in a court of law outside of the US.

    EU Countries have this thing called the European Commission, i suggest you look it up.

    While not every country in Europe is part of the EU, most of them apply the same laws as the EU countries. Especially when it comes to consumer rights and sales, both physical and digital products.

    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    How convenient for you and the other user to ignore this.

    Economic value from lootboxes on TERA or their contents = 0.

    Stuff on TERA is not like stuff from steam, where you get things that you can use as real money and use it on diferent products from diferent games from diferent companies, however in TERA you cant do that with the contents of the lootboxes.

    To be honest, they haven't investigated TERA, so we can't pretend we know what the ruling would be, but we don't.
    Also, the TERA lootboxes have extra gambling inside of them, so they are not the same, and also have the sound prompts that were criticised.
    Also, you can buy several services with gold on TERA. So... gambling with loot boxes = gold = real money service purchases. Aka... it's not really a call an apologist gets to make.

    Also, TERA is on steam, i'll let you know.
  • DatGeek wrote: »
    A clause like that would be invalidated in a court of law because it'll be ruled as an attempt to remove any responsibility from the publisher and developer.

    Long story short, you are comparing two completely different things here that can't and shouldn't even be compared to one and other in the first place.
    To simply state it, informing players that the game contains loot boxes and or the chances of obtaining items from them is being responsible rather than negligent and if a player plays and spends irresponsibly they clearly ignored the statement.

    The way things are going there will probably be a lot of countries that games with loot boxes will simply not be published/available in.

    Age restrictions (eligibility) to play a game come first, if an under age person plays an online game which has age restrictions in their TOS/EULA without parental/guardian consent they have already broken the agreement. Children using their parents credit card information does not simply excuse the parents from the financial responsibility thereof nor the responsibility if something happens to their child.

    That's like going into a "hard hat area" as a pedestrian without a hard hat even though you should not have been there in the first place and there being multiple notices posted every x amount of feet, getting a head injury then trying to fault the construction company. Same thing with the clause about loot boxes (which was simply stated to provide an idea of what it could actually convey).

    Or if a person with a soy allergy buys and consumes a food which on the label clearly states "may contain soy", they have a soy related reaction and then trying to fault the manufacturer. Same thing with a loot box clause.

    The comparison was made between loot boxes and age restrictions because the responsibility is/has been shifted to the game(s) instead of staying with the user(s). If users simply do not play games with loot boxes then there would be no situation(s) to arise with them spending irresponsibly on loot boxes which is the point. People have to take responsibility for actions they have influence over instead of trying to shift responsibility.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Nemmar wrote: »
    You don't get how things work here. The Netherlands and Belgium have declared them gambling. This comes to the EU, and soon to all EU countries will regulate this stuff. We are not separate countries here, we got a regulatory body on the EU.

    As to life being better in europe. It am sure it is, at least from Portugal to Germany and scandinavia. I've never been to eastern europe, but i do mean western and central europe. You just have to compare health care systems to see the difference. Obviously consumer protection laws aswell and frequency of shootings or even food quality and educational systems.

    LoL, Portugal? Spain? Greece? Italy? I could go on but those countries give no better life for their citizens than most 3rd world countries and Portugal and Spain where in a situacion as dire as Grece so pls first inform yourself about economic situation from your own EU countries so you will know that at most 5 countries overthere gives their people a life as you want to presume.

    And once again you are ignorimg the text that I quoted from the same article you brought to these forums.
    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99
  • Nemmar wrote: »
    Sorry, but i know that in your country
    What country is that?
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Nemmar wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    DatGeek wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    @DatGeek

    You can read what are you garantued to get from those boxes, it is not a real gambling because in real gambling you lose if the outcome is not in your favor, and nope, you are not spending money on lootboxes because you already converted it into a digital currency that has no value in real life and you will get something without value in real life.

    So if you are kind then tell me what is the diference in real value from the minimum prize on a lootbox vs the real value from the best prize... exactly nothing, their value is nothing.

    And remember this, when the game gets old and has less players than needed to get the servers up then the servers will be shutdown and you will get nothing from all those things you bought with your virtual currency because it is what is worth in real life, "nothing".

    Enough with the lies and poor apologistic rhetoric. It is gambling in europe by law, as i linked before. The rulling is out. In the US you can imagine whatever fantasy worlds you want. It's not like it doesn't already happen.

    Not in Europe, not all counties in Europe have the same laws. The country where you live is not all countries in Europe.
    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    Mind to read this from your link.

    And that is where you are wrong.

    What you buy with your real money is a product. A digital product, regardless of whether it's in-game currency or a costume. It's a product, and a part of another product, and digital purchases are governed by the consumer right laws. If you buy currency from EME for TERA and you spend it in-game, you've spent your value in real money. If you buy a costume, you've then bought something of value since it is a digital product.

    When you spend real money to buy a loot box, that has a hidden chance of giving you a main prize item, it's not different from buying chips at a casino to use on craps or a slot machine. It's still gambling in every sense.

    Let's say you buy in-game currenty to spend in the cash shop and you don't get your currency. What rights do you have? In the US? Well, here in Europe, we are protected by our consumer rights, and just because EME is in the US, and BHS in KR they still have to abide by our laws when releasing a product over here and their TOS/EULA is not above the law in any country outside of where it has been written.

    Most of the stuff written in a games' TOS/EULA would never fly in a court of law outside of the US.

    EU Countries have this thing called the European Commission, i suggest you look it up.

    While not every country in Europe is part of the EU, most of them apply the same laws as the EU countries. Especially when it comes to consumer rights and sales, both physical and digital products.

    The regulating body investigated ten popular games that included loot boxes, and found that four of them had “elements in them that can also be found in the gambling world”. In these games, the items could be traded to provide economic value, and thus violated the rules of chance. The other six did fall within gambling laws, but were still criticized in how they were implemented.
    Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/#7RbTUu94Bf1hjMvj.99

    How convenient for you and the other user to ignore this.

    Economic value from lootboxes on TERA or their contents = 0.

    Stuff on TERA is not like stuff from steam, where you get things that you can use as real money and use it on diferent products from diferent games from diferent companies, however in TERA you cant do that with the contents of the lootboxes.

    To be honest, they haven't investigated TERA, so we can't pretend we know what the ruling would be, but we don't.
    Also, the TERA lootboxes have extra gambling inside of them, so they are not the same, and also have the sound prompts that were criticised.
    Also, you can buy several services with gold on TERA. So... gambling with loot boxes = gold = real money service purchases. Aka... it's not really a call an apologist gets to make.

    Also, TERA is on steam, i'll let you know.

    Yeah, TERA is on Steam, but you cant USE TERA GOLD to buy on steam and you cant USE TERA GOLD to buy from EME cash shop or any other IRL stuff. Your stuff on TERA is worh 0, and you cant say 1 gold = x$ because the game doesnt offer you that service. Its like wanting to punish a game for me selling my account to an idiot in real life, is not the game fault but the fault of that dumb person.

    When you gamble you are set to lose if you dont get the prize, in TERA lootboxes you dont lose because you already get stuff from the lootboxes acordingly to the amount they value, the box offer you a bonus if you are lucky, in gambles you dont get a bonus you lose or win, that easy, its that hard to understand, or tell me what are you losing on TERA lootboxes? You got what you paid for, if you didnt get the better prize then you did not lose anything if you think about how much cost extensive and premium alkahest or spellbinds in the cash shop cost.

    Edit:

    One more thing, one of the games falling on the gambling issues from those that where investigated is Dota 2, and if you know that game you would know that they offer a system to their players to make real money from their assets in-game, that's why they fall in that category mean while TERA doesnt offer you nothing of the sort even if TERA is on Steam.
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