An Open Discussion to everyone.

13

Comments

  • clfarron4clfarron4 ✭✭✭✭
    Equitas wrote: »
    We can't even begin to have a dialogue with En Masse until people show want that dialogue. That dialogue can't happen until demonstrate the knowledge of the issues. So far, people aren't doing that. Facts need to come first.

    But here's the thing: The people with the knowledge and understanding of the issues and how to fix them have already initiated that dialogue with EME through the official channels, which is through support tickets, e-mails and whatever other methods that can be used to communicate with EME without the full blown chatter that you get on the forums.

    And what happens to those people with that extremely detailed knowledge? They get banned from using any EME service, including Support (the official place to go for discussing this).

    Why they get banned? I can only assume that EME are working off the assumption that you are automatically a malicious hacker if you can give a technical explanation of how something works and a technical explanation of a potential fix.That is the experience of one of my friends who doesn't play TERA, but tried to offer EME some guidance on how you could implement ping tax equalisation on ping reliant skills such as Burst Fire, Burning Heart and Rapid Fire.
  • feminzii wrote: »
    While I agree it sucks that the publisher's team doesn't really have anyone who plays the game for OTHER reasons, I don't think it is really either the publisher or the developer's responsibility to make dungeon guides for the players. Personally, I wouldn't really mind if there were no guides written for the content at all. For me it's part of the reason why the game got so boring. We read guides on what to do, we go in the new dungeons on day 1 and clear them all and then we just run them over and over again through the duration of the patch.

    True, but that's how the game is designed, and has been since day 1. However, the "learning curve" of each player is different, regardless of the tools they use or don't use. There are still people who have never cleared Red Refuge Normal Mode. Should they just quit? Since we're not offering any help or support to them.
    feminzii wrote: »
    This all really kind of strays from the main point of what I was saying though, which is simply that I don't believe it's fair for something like that to exist in the game if it's on the players-end, because not everyone is going to have it or know about it, or want to use it. Tbh I didn't even know it was a thing. I mean, a friend of mine who used the proxy did mention something to me once about doing a dungeon "with the guide" but it went right over my head.

    To build on my previous statement a little bit, dungeon guide provided by Proxy are no different than dungeon guides provided by EM, with the only exception being Proxy's dungeon guide is real-time in-game, and EM's is screenshots and somebody telling you what to do. You keep mentioning this so I'll note it, "not everyone is going to have it or know about it, or want to use it", the same could be said about written guides/advice from other players. Look, Proxy didn't tell you how to play your class, it didn't move your character from harm, it gave people who wanted to be better at the game a fair and fighting chance at doing so. That's just my opinion.
  • Aryd wrote: »
    True, but that's how the game is designed, and has been since day 1. However, the "learning curve" of each player is different, regardless of the tools they use or don't use. There are still people who have never cleared Red Refuge Normal Mode. Should they just quit? Since we're not offering any help or support to them.
    It's not designed that way. Like I said, in K-Tera they have to figure everything out themselves. They don't have full guides written out for them by patch day. As for the RRNM comparison, I don't understand what it is you're trying to say with it. When I don't know how to do a dungeon, I make a learning run, fill it with other people who don't know how to do the dungeon, and we figure it out together. I don't see what's stopping anyone else from doing that. No help or support is necessary. The people who cleared it the first day didn't have any help or support.
    Aryd wrote: »
    To build on my previous statement a little bit, dungeon guide provided by Proxy are no different than dungeon guides provided by EM, with the only exception being Proxy's dungeon guide is real-time in-game, and EM's is screenshots and somebody telling you what to do. You keep mentioning this so I'll note it, "not everyone is going to have it or know about it, or want to use it", the same could be said about written guides/advice from other players. Look, Proxy didn't tell you how to play your class, it didn't move your character from harm, it gave people who wanted to be better at the game a fair and fighting chance at doing so. That's just my opinion.
    All I will say is that, to me, there is a clear difference between a written guide outside of the game and an in-game guide. One is definitely advantageous over the other.
  • sheysheysheybaesheysheysheybae ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    feminzii wrote: »
    All I will say is that, to me, there is a clear difference between a written guide outside of the game and an in-game guide. One is definitely advantageous over the other.

    I agree with this. Also, consider the developer's point of view. If I make a game it's certainly one thing to have players write guides for the content over time, but if I make the decision to not include in-game crutches then they shouldn't be in the game for anyone.

    I have lost some friends because of this proxy mess, and as much as I wish I could say this is a black and white thing and how awful EME is for doing what they did, the proxy and its modules did take things a little further than it needed to. Both sides definitely have their faults here. It just really sucks for the innocent players whose only way of playing with low ping was through the proxy.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aryd wrote: »
    [...] it gave people who wanted to be better at the game a fair and fighting chance at doing so. That's just my opinion.

    While this can be supported, and agreed upon, that the proxy and any other tools just fix what should never have been an issue, and thus makes it a more fair game, I cannot side with the fairness of the advantages provided with those tools for one fact: It is not fair, if not everyone has that chance.
    It would be totally fair if it was possible for everyone, and you can argue that with a little google search you could find so no excuses, but yes there are excuses, or better, solid reasons, why people would not go that route, and the biggest most simple being that yes it IS against ToS and can get you banned, so anyone that doesn't use this has all the right to be concerned about their account and effort put into the game going to waste from a ban, and end up not choosing to use it, going by the rules.
    It's honestly not fair in my view that people chose to risk their accounts and mess around with stuff to gain advantages that the ones playing by the rules don't get, no matter how much anyone thinks the rules ain't fair, and then come complaining that the rules are being enforced on them as well. The rules were always there regardless of you liking them, you agreed to them, and there are TONS (and yes, THAT portion is the majority) that complies with them and have no advantages to that, which were at the mercy of the same rules.

    Obviously I'll get labeled as the trash dungeon low DPS casual trash since I'm not siding with the Kool Kids side but that is my view on it, that the fairness of these tools are highly debatable. On one hand it does fix what never should have been an issue, and on another one it's not on everyone so not fair that some have advantages or handycap compensations that others don't have access to by abiding to the rules.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    feminzii wrote: »
    Aryd wrote: »
    True, but that's how the game is designed, and has been since day 1. However, the "learning curve" of each player is different, regardless of the tools they use or don't use. There are still people who have never cleared Red Refuge Normal Mode. Should they just quit? Since we're not offering any help or support to them.
    It's not designed that way. Like I said, in K-Tera they have to figure everything out themselves. They don't have full guides written out for them by patch day. As for the RRNM comparison, I don't understand what it is you're trying to say with it. When I don't know how to do a dungeon, I make a learning run, fill it with other people who don't know how to do the dungeon, and we figure it out together. I don't see what's stopping anyone else from doing that. No help or support is necessary. The people who cleared it the first day didn't have any help or support.
    Aryd wrote: »
    To build on my previous statement a little bit, dungeon guide provided by Proxy are no different than dungeon guides provided by EM, with the only exception being Proxy's dungeon guide is real-time in-game, and EM's is screenshots and somebody telling you what to do. You keep mentioning this so I'll note it, "not everyone is going to have it or know about it, or want to use it", the same could be said about written guides/advice from other players. Look, Proxy didn't tell you how to play your class, it didn't move your character from harm, it gave people who wanted to be better at the game a fair and fighting chance at doing so. That's just my opinion.
    All I will say is that, to me, there is a clear difference between a written guide outside of the game and an in-game guide. One is definitely advantageous over the other.

    You reminded me of when VS hit NA TERA, I got into a random learning run group on day 1. Heck it was awesome even tho servers were trash and we wiped over and over. We sucked, we knew it, but it was hella lot more fun than going there with the guideline handbook on your face. That kind of trial and guts spirit has to get more popular. If I was active enough (don't have time for it now...) I would probably do a guild named "No Homework" where we learn it by sucking and "git gud" in real time, figuring it out the hard way just for the fun of challenge and surprise.
  • ItzMiraiItzMirai Portugal ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    ElinLove wrote: »
    feminzii wrote: »
    Aryd wrote: »
    True, but that's how the game is designed, and has been since day 1. However, the "learning curve" of each player is different, regardless of the tools they use or don't use. There are still people who have never cleared Red Refuge Normal Mode. Should they just quit? Since we're not offering any help or support to them.
    It's not designed that way. Like I said, in K-Tera they have to figure everything out themselves. They don't have full guides written out for them by patch day. As for the RRNM comparison, I don't understand what it is you're trying to say with it. When I don't know how to do a dungeon, I make a learning run, fill it with other people who don't know how to do the dungeon, and we figure it out together. I don't see what's stopping anyone else from doing that. No help or support is necessary. The people who cleared it the first day didn't have any help or support.
    Aryd wrote: »
    To build on my previous statement a little bit, dungeon guide provided by Proxy are no different than dungeon guides provided by EM, with the only exception being Proxy's dungeon guide is real-time in-game, and EM's is screenshots and somebody telling you what to do. You keep mentioning this so I'll note it, "not everyone is going to have it or know about it, or want to use it", the same could be said about written guides/advice from other players. Look, Proxy didn't tell you how to play your class, it didn't move your character from harm, it gave people who wanted to be better at the game a fair and fighting chance at doing so. That's just my opinion.
    All I will say is that, to me, there is a clear difference between a written guide outside of the game and an in-game guide. One is definitely advantageous over the other.

    You reminded me of when VS hit NA TERA, I got into a random learning run group on day 1. Heck it was awesome even tho servers were trash and we wiped over and over. We sucked, we knew it, but it was hella lot more fun than going there with the guideline handbook on your face. That kind of trial and guts spirit has to get more popular. If I was active enough (don't have time for it now...) I would probably do a guild named "No Homework" where we learn it by sucking and "git gud" in real time, figuring it out the hard way just for the fun of challenge and surprise.

    i wish everyone could be as accepting of the fact that people dont know dungeons as you're mentioning here, unfortunately most of the playerbase expects you to know what you're doing while accepting in lfg... Yes, you can argue we can create Learning runs ourselves and you're right but there's not that many people willing to go to a dungeon without knowing anything nowadays... it's much more common to just get a guild group with people who already know the dungeon and carry/teach you (which is pretty nice :3) and it also depends on the dungeon for uh.. obvious reasons I think.
    While i do side with proxy when it comes to ping these mods are QoL and well... arguable if necessary or not. They are not right but they aren't really wrong either.. in the end its not something game breaking even though it gives an advantage.
    Now correct me if I'm wrong but Tera does have something similar to this usually disabled for dungeons though. The 1st time i ran RM i remembed my friend telling me to turn the AOE alerts on the options. While it doesn't tell you everything it does help a bit
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinLove wrote: »
    feminzii wrote: »
    Aryd wrote: »
    True, but that's how the game is designed, and has been since day 1. However, the "learning curve" of each player is different, regardless of the tools they use or don't use. There are still people who have never cleared Red Refuge Normal Mode. Should they just quit? Since we're not offering any help or support to them.
    It's not designed that way. Like I said, in K-Tera they have to figure everything out themselves. They don't have full guides written out for them by patch day. As for the RRNM comparison, I don't understand what it is you're trying to say with it. When I don't know how to do a dungeon, I make a learning run, fill it with other people who don't know how to do the dungeon, and we figure it out together. I don't see what's stopping anyone else from doing that. No help or support is necessary. The people who cleared it the first day didn't have any help or support.
    Aryd wrote: »
    To build on my previous statement a little bit, dungeon guide provided by Proxy are no different than dungeon guides provided by EM, with the only exception being Proxy's dungeon guide is real-time in-game, and EM's is screenshots and somebody telling you what to do. You keep mentioning this so I'll note it, "not everyone is going to have it or know about it, or want to use it", the same could be said about written guides/advice from other players. Look, Proxy didn't tell you how to play your class, it didn't move your character from harm, it gave people who wanted to be better at the game a fair and fighting chance at doing so. That's just my opinion.
    All I will say is that, to me, there is a clear difference between a written guide outside of the game and an in-game guide. One is definitely advantageous over the other.

    You reminded me of when VS hit NA TERA, I got into a random learning run group on day 1. Heck it was awesome even tho servers were trash and we wiped over and over. We sucked, we knew it, but it was hella lot more fun than going there with the guideline handbook on your face. That kind of trial and guts spirit has to get more popular. If I was active enough (don't have time for it now...) I would probably do a guild named "No Homework" where we learn it by sucking and "git gud" in real time, figuring it out the hard way just for the fun of challenge and surprise.

    For a brief moment, I ran what I called "Scrub Runs" (on CH to boot. imagine that!), wherein I and a guildmate or 2 took people unfamiliar with a dungeon and explicitly said before we ran it "We will not tell you anything. That is what the run itself is for. Play, make mistakes, learn from those mistakes."

    It went pretty well for the short time it was a thing. :smile:
  • feminzii wrote: »
    It's not designed that way. Like I said, in K-Tera they have to figure everything out themselves. They don't have full guides written out for them by patch day. As for the RRNM comparison, I don't understand what it is you're trying to say with it. When I don't know how to do a dungeon, I make a learning run, fill it with other people who don't know how to do the dungeon, and we figure it out together. I don't see what's stopping anyone else from doing that. No help or support is necessary. The people who cleared it the first day didn't have any help or support.

    They also don't have ridiculous ping and FPS issues that plague Tera NA. Let's not confuse the 2 issues though. Please be a little more clear in your points, as you've said both "people who cleared it day 1 had guides" and "people who cleared day 1 didn't have support or help".

    My RRNM comparison is simple, that there is a population of the game that hasn't gone much further into the game than Frostmetal content. Which is 100% okay with me, but I personally do not enjoy playing any game in mid-tier, but I understand that people do. What happens when that's all that's left because of the issues that 3PS has been fixing for people? I'm not a doomsayer here, but what happens to your end-game community when that's all there is, learning runs that drag on for 6+ hours? (Yes, I was in an AAHM learning run that took 6 hours, maybe more because I literally couldn't sit at my keyboard anymore.) People who do not want to, or cannot figure out mechanics. Just as sort of a note here, that's your experience, and there's nothing wrong with that at all, but not all people want your experience. In your experience you've had trial and error work for you, and others may have had the same experience. However, there are others who are killed by mechanics that they cannot predict, or even see happening on their screen. They aren't offered any sort of "combat log" (there is an in-game combat log, but it only shows damage taken, and damage done, there are no details) that tells them exactly what killed them and how it happened. To be more clear, the combat log in game says Anaroth hit them for 334,673 critical damage, it doesn't tell them if they were hit by the 360 slash, the sideswipe or the windslash targeted thing. They way Anaroth works during that specific mechanic, if you lag at all, it could be 1 of 4 things that killed you, but you'd literally never know which one.
    feminzii wrote: »
    All I will say is that, to me, there is a clear difference between a written guide outside of the game and an in-game guide. One is definitely advantageous over the other.

    To you, yes, there is a clear difference. I don't doubt that in the least. I'd tend to agree with you if people had access to better tools/servers/internet. For example, the current way to "learn" a dungeon in-game, without guides, is to die and resurrect for gold, a limited number of times within that dungeon. I believe I've stated why this isn't useful, with regards to "If I don't know what killed me, how can I prevent it from happening again", so people will end up using all of their "free" rez's on the first boss and then the healer will spend the rest of the dungeon picking up pieces. This is fun, for a while, but after (for example) I've learned a mechanic, it's frustrating to spend 60+ minutes watching someone else struggle with it, let alone an entire patch cycle (there is a reason for the term "trap"). I would never scream, yell and kick somebody, simply for not knowing something, but I can't deny watching someone repeatedly die doesn't make me sad/frustrated. One of the core "issues" that EME and supporters shout to the rooftops about is inclusion. Well you cannot spew out nonsense about inclusion when you actively exclude other people, it's hypocritical. I do not condone cheating, I am simply an advocate for what these 3PS tools did for the community, and that EME should be learning. It's been said before and it'll be said again, other games/companies openly admit that they cannot provide 100% satisfaction and "outsource" to others (individuals and/or companies) to make working fixes for their games, after they've been tested internally. I do not see why that could not be the case here. (Except that the developers have already stated it won't happen, and EME is now making their statement a firm no 3PS, regardless of consequences. Although I'd love to build on that, this is not the place for it.)
  • rexoerexoe ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    2012 player here and i´ve seen and experienced the good era the bad era and the horrible era

    good 2012-13 everyone could pvp gear was easy to get farm nexus and that was it
    the bad ( or not that bad) 2014-2015 pvp gear introduced to pve was not a bad grind and the alliance system tried to get back those massive pvp battles from 2012-13 lack of support killed it. ( core staff starts to leave )
    here is when the staff started to run out of gas cause BHS stupid decisions for NA

    2016-18 ( the horror +15, creepy and new staff that dont even know what or how an mmo works and just became the dogs of BHS without a voice and any new system trying to bring back the good era that havent worked out cause they forgot to optimize the game since 2013).

    if you think they will do something they wont enmasse is tied up to BHS decisions and BHS dont and wont invest in an already decaying game when they have several other options that already give BHS more revenue.



    And tera stopped being fun for the sake of milking you with your money just to invest it in PUBG cause at this point if they cared all that emp you purchased should have gone into a better and optimized engine and a better netcode/connection services.
  • Liam, I really like your approach towards gaming, and I appreciate you trying to give a compelling story here to try to get your point a cross, invoking empathy through personal experience, giving a humane background to this subject. If this is how you really feel then you have done a good job in voicing it, and I can understand that for a casual player stuff like proxies and meters might not seem all that necessary, just for the sake of playing this game.

    However, proxies are what kept many of the endgame players around because they wanted to play the game in the way it was meant to be played. As for DPS meters, they were a very useful tool for people who cared about improving their DPS. After all, whats the point of obtaining good gear, if you cant even measure the difference yourself and experiment with different builds.

    This is a very good post. Seemingly naive. But good. I gave you a *like* !
  • Aryd wrote: »
    They also don't have ridiculous ping and FPS issues that plague Tera NA. Let's not confuse the 2 issues though. Please be a little more clear in your points, as you've said both "people who cleared it day 1 had guides" and "people who cleared day 1 didn't have support or help".
    Naturally I assumed you were talking about support or help outside of guides, because you were trying to make some point about how players who don't know how to do RMNM should quit or something to that effect because there's "nothing out there to support or help them" when there is indeed a guide on RRNM.
    Aryd wrote: »
    My RRNM comparison is simple, that there is a population of the game that hasn't gone much further into the game than Frostmetal content. Which is 100% okay with me, but I personally do not enjoy playing any game in mid-tier, but I understand that people do.
    What happens when that's all that's left because of the issues that 3PS has been fixing for people? I'm not a doomsayer here, but what happens to your end-game community when that's all there is, learning runs that drag on for 6+ hours?
    I don't really have a reason to think that that's all that would be left. The proxy thing has only been around a couple years now? As far as I know, anyway. Before it existed, dungeons used to be way harder than they are now, and people were still running them even without the proxy. If we end up seeing people completely stop running hard dungeons, it's not going to be just because of the proxy, it's probably going to be a combination of problems altogether.
    Aryd wrote: »
    People who do not want to, or cannot figure out mechanics. Just as sort of a note here, that's your experience, and there's nothing wrong with that at all, but not all people want your experience. In your experience you've had trial and error work for you, and others may have had the same experience. However, there are others who are killed by mechanics that they cannot predict, or even see happening on their screen.
    It's just a complete difference of opinion, mine being the unpopular one. Players today want to be able to play casually and still be able to get all the top tier stuff done, and it's indeed a very possible thing to do, has been for a few years now.
    Aryd wrote: »
    They aren't offered any sort of "combat log" (there is an in-game combat log, but it only shows damage taken, and damage done, there are no details) that tells them exactly what killed them and how it happened. To be more clear, the combat log in game says Anaroth hit them for 334,673 critical damage, it doesn't tell them if they were hit by the 360 slash, the sideswipe or the windslash targeted thing. They way Anaroth works during that specific mechanic, if you lag at all, it could be 1 of 4 things that killed you, but you'd literally never know which one. To you, yes, there is a clear difference. I don't doubt that in the least. I'd tend to agree with you if people had access to better tools/servers/internet. For example, the current way to "learn" a dungeon in-game, without guides, is to die and resurrect for gold, a limited number of times within that dungeon. I believe I've stated why this isn't useful, with regards to "If I don't know what killed me, how can I prevent it from happening again", so people will end up using all of their "free" rez's on the first boss and then the healer will spend the rest of the dungeon picking up pieces.

    This is fun, for a while, but after (for example) I've learned a mechanic, it's frustrating to spend 60+ minutes watching someone else struggle with it, let alone an entire patch cycle (there is a reason for the term "trap"). I would never scream, yell and kick somebody, simply for not knowing something, but I can't deny watching someone repeatedly die doesn't make me sad/frustrated. One of the core "issues" that EME and supporters shout to the rooftops about is inclusion. Well you cannot spew out nonsense about inclusion when you actively exclude other people, it's hypocritical. I do not condone cheating, I am simply an advocate for what these 3PS tools did for the community, and that EME should be learning. It's been said before and it'll be said again, other games/companies openly admit that they cannot provide 100% satisfaction and "outsource" to others (individuals and/or companies) to make working fixes for their games, after they've been tested internally. I do not see why that could not be the case here. (Except that the developers have already stated it won't happen, and EME is now making their statement a firm no 3PS, regardless of consequences. Although I'd love to build on that, this is not the place for it.)

    Basically two things here. First it feels like the assumption is being made that I'm anti-proxy. It's not the case. When it comes to how it helped people with ping, lag, and fps, I think it was a great tool and I wish the players who received those benefits from it could continue to receive them.

    My issue is with all the other stuff. You're saying that damage logs are necessary because if someone lags they might not know what killed them. But isn't the proxy supposed to be getting rid of that lag? That's my issue. If the ping and the lag are being fixed, I don't see why damage logs and dungeon guides are necessary.

    My problem is when players gain the power to say "I think this should be a part of the game" and are able to add it to their game, for themselves. Yes, it sounds harmless and insignificant when we talk about things like damage logs, and vanguard requests, and cutscene skipping. But the exact same reasoning to justify those features, can easily be used to justify the more impactful ones. Someone could say "I feel like Tera should have auto lock-on" and add it in, just for themselves, and I don't think that's fair. I don't think it should be up to the player to make decisions for themselves that the developer should be making (or has already made) for all of us.
  • VictorprestiVictorpresti ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    @feminzii

    Proxy doesn't help with Lag. Proxy helps with LATENCY. For example if your ping is 60+, be it 80, 100, 200, 300, it'll help make the game feel super smooth. Now it doesn't help with the server dying, spiking, a node along the way imploding, fluctuating ping, etc. You still need a stable connection to the server.


  • feminzii wrote: »
    Naturally I assumed you were talking about support or help outside of guides, because you were trying to make some point about how players who don't know how to do RMNM should quit or something to that effect because there's "nothing out there to support or help them" when there is indeed a guide on RRNM.

    No, quite in fact the opposite. All I want is a CM that plays the game at the very top-tier of the game. That CM would know and understand the frustrations that the end-game community has struggled with, and continues to struggle with, daily. I'd imagine there is a guide for every dungeon currently available, again, individuals are responsible for posting and maintaining these guides. I don't want to say "Hey, EME, do a write-up on a dungeon for me before it gets here." However I would gladly accept a Friday livestream of competitive CM(s) in a top-tier dungeon, going through mechanics etc.
    feminzii wrote: »
    I don't really have a reason to think that that's all that would be left. The proxy thing has only been around a couple years now? As far as I know, anyway. Before it existed, dungeons used to be way harder than they are now, and people were still running them even without the proxy. If we end up seeing people completely stop running hard dungeons, it's not going to be just because of the proxy, it's probably going to be a combination of problems altogether.


    Funny enough, I think I just said this to you in another thread, so I'll refrain from repeating myself, but exactly, it's not just 3PS users calling it quits. No, dungeons used to be fairly similar to how they are today, the only difference being the endurance buff bosses get now. Generally speaking, though, the servers used to feel much more stable, and lag wasn't as large a problem as it is now.
    feminzii wrote: »
    It's just a complete difference of opinion, mine being the unpopular one. Players today want to be able to play casually and still be able to get all the top tier stuff done, and it's indeed a very possible thing to do, has been for a few years now.

    Not casually, but at least effectively. It's obviously not cut and dry, but people have poured over the frustration of randomly dying, and then seeing a mechanic happen. It completely ruins the flow of the game, as a whole.
    feminzii wrote: »
    Basically two things here. First it feels like the assumption is being made that I'm anti-proxy. It's not the case. When it comes to how it helped people with ping, lag, and fps, I think it was a great tool and I wish the players who received those benefits from it could continue to receive them.

    And that's all I'm saying, I mean, we can agree to disagree that the modules were an unfair advantage, I didn't say none of them were, I may not have found some of them. The ones I saw though didn't appear to be harmful to gameplay. I didn't assume your stance on the matter, just debating the issues. I think it's been a rather pleasant and informative conversation.
    feminzii wrote: »
    My issue is with all the other stuff. You're saying that damage logs are necessary because if someone lags they might not know what killed them. But isn't the proxy supposed to be getting rid of that lag? That's my issue. If the ping and the lag are being fixed, I don't see why damage logs and dungeon guides are necessary.

    I'm saying that the tools provided by 3PS albeit against the ToS did more good than harm, from my viewpoint. You are correct, but we sort of split into talking about 2 different 3PS applications, one could be used without the other.
    feminzii wrote: »
    My problem is when players gain the power to say "I think this should be a part of the game" and are able to add it to their game, for themselves. Yes, it sounds harmless and insignificant when we talk about things like damage logs, and vanguard requests, and cutscene skipping. But the exact same reasoning to justify those features, can easily be used to justify the more impactful ones. Someone could say "I feel like Tera should have auto lock-on" and add it in, just for themselves, and I don't think that's fair. I don't think it should be up to the player to make decisions for themselves that the developer should be making (or has already made) for all of us.

    (I'll make an assumption here that you are talking about their physical copy of the game) That is why my stance is that EME should be working to find a way to incorporate the functionality of these 3PS tools. That way, they are internally tested and fixed so that no one can abuse them. Who better to work with than those who created the software in the first place? I can agree that I don't think *I* should be able to add "auto thunderbolt on cooldown" to *my* copy of Tera, but that's not *exactly* how it worked, from what I understand. I do believe that the playerbase as a whole should have some say in what does and doesn't get added to a game though. It's kind of a blanket statement, but yes, I do believe that EME and BHS should be listening and cooperating with their customers. Right now, it feels as though players just get to either accept what EME is doing or leave. I believe that this gives anyone a big head, and that they really need to take a step back and think about the consequences, the internet is a large place, and what they say and do will live on forever.
Sign In or Register to comment.