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Stop the P2W

124

Comments

  • DvsvDvsv ✭✭✭✭
    Tera players does not know the difference between "possibility" and "viability".

    I'm very very sorry, but if you can progress like 10x faster in the game just cuz you're a buying or selling stuff from the cash shop, then imho the game is very much P2W, and that's is true for Tera, esp since EME/BHS heavily nerfed ingame mata farming since Apex1 patch.
    As i said for a casual player/streamer that know #[email protected]! about Tera and think the gearing system is very fair cuz useless FM or SC+0 is easily achievable: Go quit your job and grind Full SC+7 from the scratch without spending a dime cuz that's the minimum for mid-tier 3 star dungeon, in the end you gonna destroy your life so you can call this game "theoretically non P2W" lol.
  • DL7MMWLJ3WDL7MMWLJ3W ✭✭✭✭
    Dvsv wrote: »
    grind Full SC+7 from the scratch without spending a dime cuz that's the minimum for mid-tier 3 star dungeon
    That's how it's supposed to work, but that's not how this greedy community wants though. In LFG, the highest gear and reputable class will be invited more often that matters the most, even for mid-tier dungeons.

  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    DL7MMWLJ3W wrote: »
    Dvsv wrote: »
    grind Full SC+7 from the scratch without spending a dime cuz that's the minimum for mid-tier 3 star dungeon
    That's how it's supposed to work, but that's not how this greedy community wants though. In LFG, the highest gear and reputable class will be invited more often that matters the most, even for mid-tier dungeons.

    I think it's a side-effect of the end-game dungeon structure being as homogeneous and rigid as it is. Since there are more and more dungeons releasing that rely on damage-checks and the like, if you don't want to spend upwards of 30 minutes is a single dungeon (to say nothing of wiping...), you're only option is to look for very specific classes with very specific equipment loadouts.

    The only real difference between this game and others of its kind is that the game itself seems to punish you for not having an optimal party makeup.

    Addendum: It also doesn't help that the community at large seems to actively discourage playing with random, possibly unknowing players (often resulting in this strange phenomenon).
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vulcarion wrote: »
    @Nopi Right but, the potential end case scenario that you're describing there is essentially what most people hate: feeling as if they are forced to p2w in order to keep up with the gear progression cycle at a reasonable rate (obviously, maxing out your gear on only one character on the last day before the new patch comes in is, in many peoples view, anything but reasonable).

    That's not to say that there aren't people out there that will be dissatisfied if any p2w option (even to just get ahead) is introduced. Look no further than comments on our forums and I'm sure you'll find them. But I think most people, that are able to at least consider the interests of both the publisher and the customer would agree that having some p2w options (solely to get ahead a bit, not jump leaps and bounds ahead of f2p) is perfectly reasonable, albeit, a slippery slope.

    Unfortunately, imo, we've already slid way off that slope, and crashed hard into a ridiculous, monotonous grind that does not reflect an enjoyable gaming experience for any players shooting for the top gear, without heavy, unreasonable p2w substantiation. This statement goes triple for new and returning players, who have been completely alienated by this new age (HO +1-3) of irresponsible, reckless management of gear progression.

    Indeed I agree to this. By now, the grind to even access mid tier content is MUCH longer than the VM days. I never cared about top tier content, but now to even be able to access mid tier stuff you have to do quite a big grind that isn't really fun because you are forced to do a very small section of the available dungeons. At i-level 433, my character still has 3/4 of the instance match stuff fully locked.
    DL7MMWLJ3W wrote: »
    Dvsv wrote: »
    grind Full SC+7 from the scratch without spending a dime cuz that's the minimum for mid-tier 3 star dungeon
    That's how it's supposed to work, but that's not how this greedy community wants though. In LFG, the highest gear and reputable class will be invited more often that matters the most, even for mid-tier dungeons.

    Back in the VM days, you could access the top tier dungeons (at least from an ilevel standpoint) with easy to obtain mid tier gear. People were fine with that because you could have more people to run those dungeons. Now mid tier is considered somewhere along the lines of StormCry. In comparison, (and as with my reply above) in the VM days, with a long-ish grind, I could solo myself into a set of gear that could access ALL dungeons in the list. Now that same effort gets me only to 1/4 of the current list.

    As for who can run mid tier stuff now? Many people posting here claims that to run such content you now need pretty high tier gear yourself. SC is still not easy to get unless you pay for it. Which is to many players the exact meaning of p2w, and what this game (or any game) shouldn't be doing.
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nopi wrote: »
    SC is still not easy to get unless you pay for it.

    Excuse me? You don't need to pay to get sc.
    SC is easy to achieve. Somewhere around +6 it becomes hard but manageable. On EU, even high end sc and HO is manageable with a normal life and playtime but that would take 2-3 months starting from scratch.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    CornishRex wrote: »
    Nopi wrote: »
    SC is still not easy to get unless you pay for it.

    Excuse me? You don't need to pay to get sc.
    SC is easy to achieve. Somewhere around +6 it becomes hard but manageable. On EU, even high end sc and HO is manageable with a normal life and playtime but that would take 2-3 months starting from scratch.

    This is where different people perceptions of things come into play. SC 0 is easy to get for every try hard and pro player out there. That's a given. I'm not any of those kinds of players. As I've said countless times, I'm a bad casual. So to me, even FM takes much longer to get than what your try hard usually takes. My comparison comes from my experience with past gear sets and the current.

    Back then, you could simply IoD for 3 or 4 days and combine those drops with whatever you had in stock already and get yourself a mid tier set that could access even the highest dungeon. If I remember, the last time that happened was when Shadow Sanguinary was new. I quit the game before Lilith so I don't know if you could do that there as well. Still, the fact was that even a total loser like myself could get enough gear to at least pretend to be relevant. So I didn't even have to enter a dungeon at all to get the needed gear to do them. In essence, the grind I used to do is giving me less now than it used to give me before.

    Sure, that was the specific flaw I saw on that system. That you really needed to do dungeons only for BiS. Now, the story changes and you have to start doing dungeons for required mats much earlier in the ladder (or grind IoD for far longer periods), and that the grind is exponentially longer, regardless of difficulty. I believe that a easy but boring grind that is too long is also part of said difficulty, since it's hard to stay focused on it. And again, that's where the perception of different people comes into play. Those who claim the grind is too long, at least most I've seen around here, don't mean to ask to get the stuff handed to them. They just want a shorter grind. Perhaps not as short as it was before, but still shorter than the current.
  • P9ENREJL9AP9ENREJL9A ✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Nopi wrote: »
    CornishRex wrote: »
    Nopi wrote: »
    SC is still not easy to get unless you pay for it.

    Excuse me? You don't need to pay to get sc.
    SC is easy to achieve. Somewhere around +6 it becomes hard but manageable. On EU, even high end sc and HO is manageable with a normal life and playtime but that would take 2-3 months starting from scratch.

    This is where different people perceptions of things come into play. SC 0 is easy to get for every try hard and pro player out there. That's a given. I'm not any of those kinds of players. As I've said countless times, I'm a bad casual. So to me, even FM takes much longer to get than what your try hard usually takes. My comparison comes from my experience with past gear sets and the current.

    Back then, you could simply IoD for 3 or 4 days and combine those drops with whatever you had in stock already and get yourself a mid tier set that could access even the highest dungeon. If I remember, the last time that happened was when Shadow Sanguinary was new. I quit the game before Lilith so I don't know if you could do that there as well. Still, the fact was that even a total loser like myself could get enough gear to at least pretend to be relevant. So I didn't even have to enter a dungeon at all to get the needed gear to do them. In essence, the grind I used to do is giving me less now than it used to give me before.

    Sure, that was the specific flaw I saw on that system. That you really needed to do dungeons only for BiS. Now, the story changes and you have to start doing dungeons for required mats much earlier in the ladder (or grind IoD for far longer periods), and that the grind is exponentially longer, regardless of difficulty. I believe that a easy but boring grind that is too long is also part of said difficulty, since it's hard to stay focused on it. And again, that's where the perception of different people comes into play. Those who claim the grind is too long, at least most I've seen around here, don't mean to ask to get the stuff handed to them. They just want a shorter grind. Perhaps not as short as it was before, but still shorter than the current.

    As you said, even in the last patch before gear revamp you could get even full guile +12 with bane accesories and your gold inners and you could enjoy every single dungeon in the game. You didn't need even mid tier gear for that. Once resized tools and diadems came you only need to get them and with your low tier gear fully enchanted (guile +12) you will run any content.
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Nopi wrote: »
    CornishRex wrote: »
    Nopi wrote: »
    SC is still not easy to get unless you pay for it.

    Excuse me? You don't need to pay to get sc.
    SC is easy to achieve. Somewhere around +6 it becomes hard but manageable. On EU, even high end sc and HO is manageable with a normal life and playtime but that would take 2-3 months starting from scratch.

    This is where different people perceptions of things come into play. SC 0 is easy to get for every try hard and pro player out there. That's a given. I'm not any of those kinds of players. As I've said countless times, I'm a bad casual. So to me, even FM takes much longer to get than what your try hard usually takes. My comparison comes from my experience with past gear sets and the current.

    Again, this is not true. I see the biggest noobs and casual players in +7 sc. Sc +0 is really, really not hard to achieve. I know mega casual players that only log on once or twice a week to play a bit with their guildies. It's almost the same as your usual mid tier gear during VM days, except on NA farming focus is shifted on grinding iod for golden talents. I know about points of view, different people etc, but sc +0 is really not something that's only for tryhards.

    As you said, now you have to do dungeons for mats and xp but that doesn't make the gear any less casual to get, it's just that the process takes a bit longer. It's still not painful, just like mid tier gear during vm days was not painful to obtain. The process used to be shorter but other than that it's pretty much the same thing, just spread out so it makes you play more.
  • @CornishRex not sure we’re playing the same game. Tera grind definitely isn’t casual friendly no matter how you try and spin it and in order to actually progress now you HAVE to spend otherwise your grind will be longer. Let’s not forget even with max gear xp you can still fail on frost. Literally invested almost 180k going to +9 from +6 worth of fails on frost. Rng is a [filtered].
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    CornishRex wrote: »
    Nopi wrote: »
    CornishRex wrote: »
    Nopi wrote: »
    SC is still not easy to get unless you pay for it.

    Excuse me? You don't need to pay to get sc.
    SC is easy to achieve. Somewhere around +6 it becomes hard but manageable. On EU, even high end sc and HO is manageable with a normal life and playtime but that would take 2-3 months starting from scratch.

    This is where different people perceptions of things come into play. SC 0 is easy to get for every try hard and pro player out there. That's a given. I'm not any of those kinds of players. As I've said countless times, I'm a bad casual. So to me, even FM takes much longer to get than what your try hard usually takes. My comparison comes from my experience with past gear sets and the current.

    Again, this is not true. I see the biggest noobs and casual players in +7 sc. Sc +0 is really, really not hard to achieve. I know mega casual players that only log on once or twice a week to play a bit with their guildies. It's almost the same as your usual mid tier gear during VM days, except on NA farming focus is shifted on grinding iod for golden talents. I know about points of view, different people etc, but sc +0 is really not something that's only for tryhards.

    As you said, now you have to do dungeons for mats and xp but that doesn't make the gear any less casual to get, it's just that the process takes a bit longer. It's still not painful, just like mid tier gear during vm days was not painful to obtain. The process used to be shorter but other than that it's pretty much the same thing, just spread out so it makes you play more.

    Guess my case is so unique then that I shouldn't even be playing at all then. <.< Then again, I just tried doing the same I used to do before (as in IoD and non dungeon stuff) and all I'm getting is some increased gold gains (thanks the the bubbles guardian missions). Other than that, I'm still at i level 433. That's a full set of TH 0 with a +3 TW weapon and TH accessories. I saw the 432 dungeons, and again, while I don't find it surprising for many casuals to ace them easily, I found them rather bothersome for my own currently too lazy self (again enforcing my "uniquely bad" theory). Still, I don't feel the change just made it all "just a bit" more difficult or grindy. Plus running with a guild is always much easier for everyone to run stuff.

    So any way. I'll leave it here. You certainly have played more in this content patch than me to hold more truth in your wording, so I should abide by what you say, but until I find my way, I can't echo it to others.
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Maleficent94 I agree grind isn't so casual and easy anymore. But it certainly isn't the grind from twist to +0 sc. Maybe I'm just incredibly lucky but I never had troubles (across 10 characters or so) in reaching +0 sc in a relatively short timeframe. HO and on is another story.
    And EU is another story as well, where it's actually "easy" (if you can handle the fails) to achieve ho if you play normally...

    @Nopi
    The game just stopped catering to strictly solo players (even though players that do group stuff are still forced to farm solo content on na...) since you can't gear without xp. Still, you can solo farm iod for golden talents, and sell a portion of them to buy enchanting boxes and then get to ilvl 439 without much xp. 439 and on it might be impossible to solo, imo.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    CornishRex wrote: »
    The game just stopped catering to strictly solo players (even though players that do group stuff are still forced to farm solo content on na...) since you can't gear without xp. Still, you can solo farm iod for golden talents, and sell a portion of them to buy enchanting boxes and then get to ilvl 439 without much xp. 439 and on it might be impossible to solo, imo.

    So basically, the grind was mostly changed instead of being straight and strictly made longer? I admit I have been acting mostly as a watcher nowadays. Getting into the game mostly to see what's going on. but yeah. I admit to what I said I did before. I tried to do my usual (get to mid tier) grind the old way, and it didn't work too well. Gear xp pretty much stopped me on my tracks, considering you need ample amounts of gold even for FM which is considered trash tier by now. I've never been too smart with my gold, after all....
  • Item xp needs to mean something, if I grind my [filtered] of for 150k item xp I should get a huge success chance, but as it is right now, only about 20% when you max it out lol. Such a middle finger to the community.
  • its usually 15% at those levels (150k item exp+). And yes, that is a pretty stingy reward for such a grind. item exp amounts of that amount should probably be giving something more like 25-35% success chance, (they'd probably have to go back then and increase the base success chance of gear that requires less item exp in that case, heaven forbid they ever did that).
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Vulcarion wrote: »
    its usually 15% at those levels (150k item exp+). And yes, that is a pretty stingy reward for such a grind. item exp amounts of that amount should probably be giving something more like 25-35% success chance, (they'd probably have to go back then and increase the base success chance of gear that requires less item exp in that case, heaven forbid they ever did that).

    Or worse: make it so that getting all the necessary XP actually equals 100% success chance!

    But that would make too much sense. This is BHS we're talking about.
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