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Progression needs to be fixed.

Since I saw this post, I figured this topic should be brought up.

The topic in hand had a lot of talk about what is mid/high tier, low tier, BiS etc. I'll skip that and simplify it to how things are in most peoples eyes - Stormcry 0-6 (and anything lower) is low tier. 7 is mid tier, 8-9 is high tier. Oath 0-1-2 is for all intents and purposes BiS.

I don't think gear progression itself is the issue though - yes it's a clusterfuck and has an issue with having exponential costs. The issue is with dungeon progression and dungeon rewards for low level dungeons. What you at EME need to realise is that these dungeons drop NOTHING, and NO ONE runs them anymore, and these were actual content at one point. Actual end game content that people had to learn and then get on farm. Running KDNM is the equivalent of going back and running MCHM as it was at lvl 60 with Ambush 15. See the issue? No reason for people with gear to do it, a challenge for people at that gear level.

What does this mean? This means that you need to *condense* these dungeons (i.e. remove a ton of them), and INCREASE the drops from them. I get you don't want geared players blazing through the dungeons for their own benefit, but if you keep it the way it is you are going to continue creating a progression gap between your new players and "veteran" players. Maybe implement a bonus vg system when a person is doing a dungeon at their gear level for all low level dungeons that gives useful mats to accelerate people to current low tier gear.


tl;dr - there is a growing gap between new players and "veterans" due to nerfed rewards on low tier dungeons new players *need* (they STILL start with guardian, remember, we've established that stormcry base is low tier for current patch of stuff people are running), lack of incentive for anyone to run said content, too much spread of said content, and an exponential (yes, it is exponential, it is NOT linear) growth in gear enchanting, and honestly, it's an exponential growth on progression itself - it was FAR more linear of a growth before.


For your convenience, I've taken a picture of an alt at frostmetal base 0, my suggested vanguards, and the dungeons around my item level. Have a great laugh -
WykChBP.jpg
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Comments

  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    @publicnicknameasdf Hold up, hold up, hold right the hell up...

    Dark Reach Citadel is a 2-star dungeon with a recommended gear score of 446?!
  • metagamemetagame ✭✭✭✭
    What you at EME need to realise is that these dungeons drop NOTHING, and NO ONE runs them anymore
    in a literal sense, this is wrong.

    446, the ilvl required to get vg rewards from DRC/RRH, can be achieved with full +9 fm. no "low tier" sc needed.
  • In a literal sense, you are paper in frostmetal and do no damage, and won't be taken to most dungeons or given a chance to progress. Read about a guys experience with the game state for progression HERE.

    This is part of why the whole "condensing" part in the opening post is a good idea - it removes a ton of the crap to make it easier for new players to find a party together, learn a dungeon together, and they don't have to learn an entire catalog of outdated dungeons just to get to current patch low/mid tier gear.
  • CatservantCatservant ✭✭✭✭
    I'm probably just stirring the pot here, but how have we "established" that SC +0 is low tier? You asserted it, then seem to take it as a fact.

    Established usually means an argument is presented and accepted by both parties, thus "establishing" the assumption for the purposes of the rest of the discussion.

    Incidentally, I disagree. I believe FM+0 has become low tier. That's the tier where you first start really getting into the dungeons and end-game, but much of the content is still barred to you. SC+0 is mid tier in my opinion--you can run most content but HM dung are out of the question. The bulk of the casual players will probably still reach SC+0-7 eventually. SC+9 is still Bis with HO by itself in the nosebleed section.

    But yes, Guardian and Twist gearing has become part of the leveling cycle now, like getting your master glyphs and awakening your class. Only after you've done those things does it seem like you're really starting end game now. And if you want to run with the big dogs, it must be incredibly frustrating in NA right now.

    I said I would hold my opinion on the new setup for a year, and we've passed that now--and I'm not thrilled. If we had a large population it might be different, but we don't. If other issues discussed elsewhere were different, regarding resources of all types, that might help, too.

    Don't get me wrong, I still love playing TERA, but I was really hoping when they said they were going to make it so your gear didn't lose it's value "like before" that it would mean something very different than it has turned out to be.
  • Vy1ViviVy1Vivi ✭✭✭
    I agree. I returned to the game a few weeks ago and am still struggling to get one single character into stormcry (I started with my healer, but then switched mains to DPS). They had a nifty event a week ago during the last week of the several-week long leveling event to prepare for Dark Reaches where the enhancement success rate was increased for frostmetal, twistshard, etc. but it was severely bad timing for me, as I had just returned and barely had anything to even be able to take advantage of it (not enough item exp was my main issue), but others who had been playing before me were able to take advantage of it and propel a character or more into stormcry.

    It was just my bad luck and timing, but still, I'm stuck with enhancing my frostmetal the good 'ol hard way and I'm already feeling the grind with my capricious luck (around 50% chance of success for weapon with maxed exp +6 and up) and every fail is like a punch in the face 'cause that's more time and resources needing to be put in. And I'm not even at stormcry yet. I sometimes lament thinking about how much worse the grind and time is going to get in the future. And now people are talking about stormcry being low or mid tier, but it definitely doesn't feel like it, especially considering the difficulty getting to it in the first place its pretty laughable.
  • metagamemetagame ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    In a literal sense, you are paper in frostmetal and do no damage, and won't be taken to most dungeons or given a chance to progress.
    by that logic no one would run with anyone that isn't in full +2 HO because their damage doesn't match up either, but that is not the case

    apex exists for every class now, and DRC/RRH are easy enough to carry through.
  • @catservant I base low tier off the minimum gear level (from a pug) that people WITH mid/high tier gear will willingly run with for relevant current content.

    The minimum for that has always been the level of gear that gave a buffer to keep the new player from being a full hindrance.

    Relevant current content is defined as content that has relevance to existing players that already have gear, but that also drops mats for lower tier gears. Think rk9hm/rk9nm - EE was needed, but so were lower tier mats (clasps and art tools).

    Current content in this patch is stuff that drops EE or better. Ask yourself if you'd take someone in frostmetal to RRHM and believe it to be enough of a buffer to prevent them from being a hinderance (i.e. not being 1 shot by any dual mechs in there). If you said yes, then sure, you can consider frostmetal to be low tier.
  • metagamemetagame ✭✭✭✭
    nearly every attack in RRHM is either fixed/percentage damage or are coupled with bleeds that can be babysat through by a good healer.
  • DvsvDvsv ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Imho, if we think about it there was logic behind the old VM gearing system:

    1 - The gear treadmill always reseted each patch, this gave a chance for new/returning players to catch up, unlike the current system;
    2 - And the most important thing: Content was balanced and made for actual mid-tier gear, if you were skilled enough you could clear even 5 star dungeon on something like Misery gear. VM+15 was more of a "plus", something to show off or to clear content faster...

    P.s: Prob by the next month they will release the true endgame dungeon ( 5 stars) with a iLVL req of 456 which is HO+0, that show how much grindy the game became since VM days.

    By the next patch when they release HO+5 or +6 crap and raise iLVL req again it'll be virtually impossible for a new/returning player to catch.

    Tbh, if you ask me i already think that the old VM system with just some minor fix (like some % correction from each failure on 12~15) would be a way better than the current gearing system.

    Imho, if the devs consider ~SC+7 mid-tier gear then they should either: Heavily nerf enchanting cost or maybe EME shoulld make farming mats easier..
    metagame wrote: »
    What you at EME need to realise is that these dungeons drop NOTHING, and NO ONE runs them anymore
    in a literal sense, this is wrong.

    446, the ilvl required to get vg rewards from DRC/RRH, can be achieved with full +9 fm. no "low tier" sc needed.
    Tbh Full FM+9 cost wise is not far from SC+0 or it's the same thing as something like FM+6 and some SC+0 pieces.
    And then there's the problem of 453 iLVL for the new 3 stars dungeons. 453 is not something like just one SC+7 weapon but it's more like full SC+7 which is WAY harder for a mid-tier player to achieve.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dvsv wrote: »
    Imho, if we think about it there was logic behind the old VM gearing system:

    1 - The gear treadmill always reseted each patch, this gave a chance for new/returning players to catch up, unlike the current system;
    2 - And the most important thing: Content was balanced and made for actual mid-tier gear, if you were skilled enough you could clear even 5 star dungeon on something like Misery gear. VM+15 was more of a "plus", something to show off or to clear content faster...
    P.s: Prob the next month they will release the true endgame dungeon ( 5 stars) with a iLVL req of 456 which is HO+0!

    By the next patch when they release HO+5 or +6 crap and raise again iLVL req it'll be virtually impossible for a new/returning player to catch.

    Tbh, if you ask me i already think that the old VM system with just some minor fix (like some % correction from each failure on 12~15) would be a way better than the current gearing system.

    Imho, if the devs consider SC+0~+7 mid-tier gear then they should either: Heavily nerf enchanting cost or maybe EME shoulld make farming mats easier..
    metagame wrote: »
    What you at EME need to realise is that these dungeons drop NOTHING, and NO ONE runs them anymore
    in a literal sense, this is wrong.

    446, the ilvl required to get vg rewards from DRC/RRH, can be achieved with full +9 fm. no "low tier" sc needed.
    Tbh Full FM+9 cost wise is not far from SC+0 or it's the same thing as something like FM+6 and some SC+0 pieces.
    And then there's the problem of 453 iLVL for the new 3 stars dungeons. 453 is not something like just one SC+7 weapon but it's more like Full SC+7 which is WAY harder for a mid-tier player to achieve.

    This.... I have explained this before, and I completely believe EME can help with a workaround to get people to these new tiers of gear faster, so we can more or less have it in a way that's similar to the old VM days. BHS, being Korean, will always want to push for these super long grinds nobody in NA regions like. If EME wants to do a workaround to this, they could simply buff the rewards to gear up through guardian, TH and up to FM+9 at least, giving a slightly slower grind for SC while keeping HO as optional top tier gear, like VM was back then.
  • CatservantCatservant ✭✭✭✭
    @catservant I base low tier off the minimum gear level (from a pug) that people WITH mid/high tier gear will willingly run with for relevant current content.

    The minimum for that has always been the level of gear that gave a buffer to keep the new player from being a full hindrance.

    Relevant current content is defined as content that has relevance to existing players that already have gear, but that also drops mats for lower tier gears. Think rk9hm/rk9nm - EE was needed, but so were lower tier mats (clasps and art tools).

    Current content in this patch is stuff that drops EE or better. Ask yourself if you'd take someone in frostmetal to RRHM and believe it to be enough of a buffer to prevent them from being a hinderance (i.e. not being 1 shot by any dual mechs in there). If you said yes, then sure, you can consider frostmetal to be low tier.

    TY for the concise explanation.
    But given these definitions of the tiers, yes SC+0 is low tier.

    It seems our use of terms is widely divergent, however. Because back in the day, I cannot imagine anyone taking someone in Idoneal into BRHM )I think that was the high tier dungeon at the time?, can't recall) So I was imagining a definition more parallel to that division.

    Low tier=training gear. You just got here.
    Mid-tier=functional but tough to do end game content. You will need to be VERY skilled or find people willing to carry you for the toughest dungeons.
    High tier=Can run anything, will carry others when skilled as well.

    For this discussion I cede to your definitions.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Catservant wrote: »
    @catservant I base low tier off the minimum gear level (from a pug) that people WITH mid/high tier gear will willingly run with for relevant current content.

    The minimum for that has always been the level of gear that gave a buffer to keep the new player from being a full hindrance.

    Relevant current content is defined as content that has relevance to existing players that already have gear, but that also drops mats for lower tier gears. Think rk9hm/rk9nm - EE was needed, but so were lower tier mats (clasps and art tools).

    Current content in this patch is stuff that drops EE or better. Ask yourself if you'd take someone in frostmetal to RRHM and believe it to be enough of a buffer to prevent them from being a hinderance (i.e. not being 1 shot by any dual mechs in there). If you said yes, then sure, you can consider frostmetal to be low tier.

    TY for the concise explanation.
    But given these definitions of the tiers, yes SC+0 is low tier.

    It seems our use of terms is widely divergent, however. Because back in the day, I cannot imagine anyone taking someone in Idoneal into BRHM )I think that was the high tier dungeon at the time?, can't recall) So I was imagining a definition more parallel to that division.

    Low tier=training gear. You just got here.
    Mid-tier=functional but tough to do end game content. You will need to be VERY skilled or find people willing to carry you for the toughest dungeons.
    High tier=Can run anything, will carry others when skilled as well.

    For this discussion I cede to your definitions.

    First time I see it defined as this as well. I suppose that for certain discussions, this model can be used. But if this defines low tier in this way, then what tier is everything before? training/trash tier? zero/non tier? I mean, this definition would make anything that is not the last 3 dungeons, not end game.
  • TrialMacameauTrialMacameau Does it matter ? cuz DDOSing is a crime punishable of Prison ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    > @publicnicknameasdf said:
    > Since I saw this post, I figured this topic should be brought up.
    >
    > The topic in hand had a lot of talk about what is mid/high tier, low tier, BiS etc. I'll skip that and simplify it to how things are in most peoples eyes - Stormcry 0-6 (and anything lower) is low tier. 7 is mid tier, 8-9 is high tier. Oath 0-1-2 is for all intents and purposes BiS.
    >
    > I don't think gear progression itself is the issue though - yes it's a clusterfuck and has an issue with having exponential costs. The issue is with dungeon progression and dungeon rewards for low level dungeons. What you at EME need to realise is that these dungeons drop NOTHING, and NO ONE runs them anymore, and these were actual content at one point. Actual end game content that people had to learn and then get on farm. Running KDNM is the equivalent of going back and running MCHM as it was at lvl 60 with Ambush 15. See the issue? No reason for people with gear to do it, a challenge for people at that gear level.
    >
    > What does this mean? This means that you need to *condense* these dungeons (i.e. remove a ton of them), and INCREASE the drops from them. I get you don't want geared players blazing through the dungeons for their own benefit, but if you keep it the way it is you are going to continue creating a progression gap between your new players and "veteran" players. Maybe implement a bonus vg system when a person is doing a dungeon at their gear level for all low level dungeons that gives useful mats to accelerate people to current low tier gear.
    >
    >
    > tl;dr - there is a growing gap between new players and "veterans" due to nerfed rewards on low tier dungeons new players *need* (they STILL start with guardian, remember, we've established that stormcry base is low tier for current patch of stuff people are running), lack of incentive for anyone to run said content, too much spread of said content, and an exponential (yes, it is exponential, it is NOT linear) growth in gear enchanting, and honestly, it's an exponential growth on progression itself - it was FAR more linear of a growth before.
    >
    >
    > For your convenience, I've taken a picture of an alt at frostmetal base 0, my suggested vanguards, and the dungeons around my item level. Have a great laugh -

    You seems to have forgotten one thing...

    Some of these dungeons are Story Quest Related... removing them could invalidate the lore...
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