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Fraywind Canyon Suggestions
After reading through the thread about removing premades from fraywind canyon, talking to players in game about it, and my own experience. I wanted your opinions on this so maybe we could find a good solution to help balance out games a little bit and make it easier on players who may not yet have the best in slot gear. My hope is that with enough feedback we can get some changes going through BHS/EME.
How it currently works:
Team wins by earning 5k points first.
Points are earned through
Kills: 80
Pyre Capture: 40
Accumulated points per pyre per second: 2 (1 pyre), 3 (2 pyres), 4 (3 pyres)
Naga: 400
Teralith: 50
Red and Blue buffs: 10 each
How it currently is set up rewards zerging more than strategy and teamwork. I've won games where we've not bothered with capping at all just because the kill difference was so great. We need a way to break up the zerg and make pyres more rewarding. The original thought was to buff pyres again (at one point capping a pyre gave 100-200 points depending on the patch we were on) however this led to issues with white capping. I think pyres could be buffed a little bit but not like before. I think a good chunk of contribution should come from holding pyres down and not just capping and running off. I'd like to see kills still be rewarding to the score overall though since at the end of the day this is a pvp arena. This is what I've come up with however I'm not sure of how it would change certain things like time spent in a game.
Kills: 60
Pyre Capture: 60
Accumulated points per pyre per second: 4(1 pyre), 6(2 pyres), 8(3 pyres)
Naga: 400
Teralith: 50
Red and Blue buffs: 10 each
Naga and Teralith could use a little health and endurance buff. The EQ gear needs stun reduction on earrings.
How it currently works:
Team wins by earning 5k points first.
Points are earned through
Kills: 80
Pyre Capture: 40
Accumulated points per pyre per second: 2 (1 pyre), 3 (2 pyres), 4 (3 pyres)
Naga: 400
Teralith: 50
Red and Blue buffs: 10 each
How it currently is set up rewards zerging more than strategy and teamwork. I've won games where we've not bothered with capping at all just because the kill difference was so great. We need a way to break up the zerg and make pyres more rewarding. The original thought was to buff pyres again (at one point capping a pyre gave 100-200 points depending on the patch we were on) however this led to issues with white capping. I think pyres could be buffed a little bit but not like before. I think a good chunk of contribution should come from holding pyres down and not just capping and running off. I'd like to see kills still be rewarding to the score overall though since at the end of the day this is a pvp arena. This is what I've come up with however I'm not sure of how it would change certain things like time spent in a game.
Kills: 60
Pyre Capture: 60
Accumulated points per pyre per second: 4(1 pyre), 6(2 pyres), 8(3 pyres)
Naga: 400
Teralith: 50
Red and Blue buffs: 10 each
Naga and Teralith could use a little health and endurance buff. The EQ gear needs stun reduction on earrings.
5
Comments
As of right now someone who is on a 7 kill streak is worth somewhere near half of a Naga, which is pretty high.
My premade, which was more geared and very well coordinated strictly PvP-wise, were able to completely ignore the pyre aspect of Fraywind, which was supposed to be the reason why Fraywind is unique in the first place, against an alternate account Manifest premade, which had decent gear (not BiS) but excellent rotations. We played this way because we know that as long as we secure the teralith buff, there's no way that they can win and almost on purpose completely disregard that we were triple capped for 80% of the game and never had an advantage in caps past the 2 minute mark. At the end of that game, we all kind of laughed to ourselves that if we played that way before the Fraywind change, we would have been stomped. Being able to do this kind of ruins the idea of Fraywind in that it's just a less laggy Gridiron with BAMs instead of bombs.
In fact, I think kills should only be 40 points, not 60.
Double and triple capping pyres should be the most important thing to win.
Honestly, though, I don't see this doing much to fix the FWC issues. Even back when pyres did matter, FWC was still very one sided in most games. The main problem is, and always has been, the matchmaking system.
There is no perfect solution to the matchmaking system, but probably the best thing, would be for it to factor in ranking, and class. It should do its best to distribute classes evenly, and should do its best to average out both team's ranking.
Improving the loser buff could also help (only if it wears off once the point deficit is smaller.).
I also agree that stun resist should be added to equalized earrings.
This wont fix everything but it's a start to a better player experience in the BG which might encourage players to do better. Double premades and players with gear have always had an advantage however back when pyres were important we could out play players stronger than us. Zerging, road fighting, and spawn camping shouldn't be how you win games.
BHS in the past has said they've made adjustments to the matchmaking system. I'm not entirely sure what those changes were but they don't seem to really make a difference. It clearly doesn't take in account rating and the only class balancing it does is make sure each side has at least 3 healers and a limit of 5 per class. It should take into account if people are queuing alone or as 5 and sort them accordingly. I don't know if this is something BHS would be willing to change.
Loser buff is pretty strong as it is especially if you stack it with the teralith buff. I guess it could activate earlier but the issue there is that back in the day raid leaders would let kill/point difference get to where they'd have loser before first tera. This made it a lot easier to get the bam and then just destroy the other team. So if this could be adjusted things like that would need to be considered.
I still dont understand why they give bad/wrong stats to equalized gear in pvp. It doesn't help the community at all when they do that. u.u
1. Promoting pyre's promotes usage of ranged classes due to constant AoE cheese on Pyre's that always occurred. That was when we only had 2 AoE classes. Now we have 4, and 3 of them are very good classes. AoE cheese would be worse, much much worse.
2. Pyre's promote less teamwork and a constant game of tag. There is no fun in joining a BG to play cat and mouse. This is what happened every game where if the mid fight went bad, people would start scattering. This occurs much less now.
Nowadays a lost midfight still gives your team a chance to regroup because people realize that the best way to earn points is to kill, and the easiest way to kill is as a team. People only scatter with Pyre's if they give up easily or if the game is completely one sided.
I will give you an example of what "strategy" FWC use to consist of. First off, you would have one person go either North or South for a pyre cap, depending on where you spawn. So already one person has to avoid fighting to cap a pyre. You then had Sorcs Hailstorm/Archers RoA the pyre. They would then cap the pyre and then continue to spam the pyre because nothing else mattered. The team that lost mid spent the rest of the game pyre capping in hopes of catching the other team off guard. To try and prevent this, you would usually keep 5 ish people at mid. That's it, that's what every FWC was. The game turned into a whitecapping fest and no one sticking together. You use the word zerg, but it's a team fight. Zerg doesn't even fit because zerging implies you outnumber the other team, which you don't. It's a 15v15 BG, you stick with your team and attempt to win the fight. The coordination is in the transitional phase. Getting your team to stick together and not run off is much harder than you think.
At most, you could slightly buff points per second for having pyre's, but it should not be a lot. As someone who has loved FWC since FW gear, I never want to see pyre's become important again. They are useful, and that's as far as they should ever go. The games I've played since the change have be immensely better (the close/semi close ones). I would also like to add that if you really had to buff pyre's, buffing their overall points per second is the only proper way to do it, otherwise it just turns into a cap game. This is what I would do if I were to buff pyre's.
Kills: 80/90/100
Pyre Capture: 20
Accumulated points per pyre per second: 6(1 pyre), 8(2 pyres), 10(3 pyres)
Naga: 400
Teralith: 50
Red and Blue buffs: 10 each
This makes whitecapping not nearly as important, while promoting keeping pyre's as well as still keeping the sense of teamfights alive. With that said, I don't think any of this is necessary and FWC is fine as it is as it promotes team fighting. Team fights and sticking together is the most coordination you will ever get in FWC, buffing pyre's and having people "hold" them does nothing. I would like to add one more thing to this mess of a post: "High level" aka what Canyon Clashes consisted of, was the same thing as how it currently is. No one held any pyre's because it's impossible. If a team pushes you with numbers, you lose. It only worked as a deterrent against roamers and stalling caps. Otherwise you stayed with your team, because that's how team games work.
You keep bringing up white capping, but everyone has clearly been saying that they don't want actual capping be what gives many points, but HOLDING the pyre.
And yes, I WILL call it zerging. Because that's what usually happens. Rarely is it 15 vs 15, except the initial clash at mid. After that, one team realizes they have no chance, and so they spread out and go for pyre caps, and stragglers. This happens 9 out of 10 games.
So yeah, 1 out of 10 games, when there is actually decently even teams, is not zerging, I guess.
If you think the current FWC is fine, then I would think that you are one of those premades taking advantage of the current matchmaking system, and winning easy games. Don't want to lose your easy wins?
As for your points about AoE classes and their "cheese," please tell me how that is ANY different now. Giga, ground pound, etc., are all just as cancerous as any of those anti-pyre capping skills ever were!
Say what you will, but premades are dominating FWC more than before the pyre nerf. Wins are more one sided than ever before.
I understand the problems that pyres used to have. But completely eliminating their importance was the wrong solution. Making the BG a glorified death match, was not the answer.
Also, I think the BG was more fun and intense, when pyres mattered. It also had more strategy.
You're wrong for calling it zerging, you can call it that however many times you want, but if your team actually decides not to quit instantly, it's usually an even fight. It's not the other team's fault that your team decides it's somehow better to scatter than to stick together.
Funny enough I only solo-queue because I don't have a pre-made I run with since they all quit. Back in the day, though, I did run with pre-mades. Pre-mades being dominate has always been a thing, though. The only time you lost as a pre-made back then was if they had a better pre-made, they had more pre-mades, or if you successfully kept capping pyres, two of these still happen. I don't see how you can be upset that a team of people that play together and are better/better geared should not win.
Because Pyre's don't matter, meaning I don't have to worry about taking free damage having to cap. I can avoid AoE's that I'm not stunned through, and you want to make Pyre's, something that can constantly be AoE's, relevant again. I mean, if I mained an AoE class I would love this idea, I miss throwing HS's on pyre and then getting a triple kill on pyre with a FB crit, that was some fun [filtered]. Same thing with just spamming [filtered] as Reaper back then on pyre. Freelo.
And to continue with this, premades always dominated, and there's not much wrong with that. The better team wins, this happens in every game. I also suggested buffing the usefulness of holding the pyre for buffing them, while nerfing the points you get for capturing, something the OP did not do. I have no problems with a small/medium buff to holding, however, the points you get for capping should be lowered as a result as the main goal, from OP's standpoint, is to make holding relevant again. If you up the cap points, people will simply not hold because it's easier and more efficient to just keep rotating caps.
Even at the highest level, using Canyon Clash 3 as my example, teams either did split North South or "full" committed to mid. From there, if the DM favored anyone, the team it didn't favor simply ran away. If the DM was equal, it was a long [filtered] fight. This also shows that, by your definition, FWC back then also consisted of lots of "zerging".
References:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=M9PZm_IOHFg
https://youtube.com/watch?v=GkHAWsVb4Bk
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TrNZ3DfzVEM
What Fraywind needs is a better skilled group of players.
There's easily two other places a person can farm for gear. Corsairs and Skyring Solo. Both of which are EQ gear.
I'm growing tired of the straight up bad balancing in fraywind. 9/10 times it's a fodder premade vs MT best. We all know how that ends.
What Fraywind needs is a pyre removal and a bam removal. Scrap the lots. Make all corners spawn points and make it a bloodbath.
We're in hell as it is with lack of real PvP. Give us a BG in which we need to reach 5000 pts by killing each other. No buffs, no pyres just the players and the battlefield.
Increase CS rewards to make it alive again but nothing to fancy or fwc goes bye bye. Grid os dead as it is and it's EQ. The rate we're going we wont have any reason to farm gear for PvP
And you clearly agree that holding pyres should be worth more, which is the main idea behind the OPs post. Why squabble over a tiny point difference when initially capping a pyre? As if it really makes any difference if it's worth 60 points, or 40 points, or 20 points...it's all a drop in the bucket compared to the points you would get from HOLDING it.
And sure, I agree that premades will still dominate. But it will hopefully help somewhat, to make games less one sided.
As I've said many times in previous posts about this subject - no one single thing will fix FWC. It would likely take a few changes. And the matchmaking system is by far the biggest problem.
But the other thing about pyres mattering more, is that I feel it made the BG more fun and exciting, which I wouldn't mind having back.
And as for premades deserving to dominate - I simply can't agree with you there. There needs to be a balance between premades and solo queuers, because premades rely on solo queuers to exist. If there were no solo queuers, the premades would have no one to dominate. In fact, the solo queuers don't need the premades to exist, but the premades DO need the solo queuers, in order to exist. This means that premades need to be properly balanced. Though I am no a proponent of removing premades from FWC, as some have suggested; I would at least admit that FWC deserves to be premade free more than solo queuers deserve to be dominated by premades.
My suggestion has been that they average out each team's ranking, and match the teams up so that their rankings are as even as possible. Also, the class composition should be factored in to a greater extent than it is (like insuring both sides have a Priest and Mystic, or both have none of one type.).
It still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be far more competitive than it is now!!
The problem is how easy it is to stack premades. Perhaps it's time for a 15man premade version of fraywinf to be made with the same rewards. I know it doesn't solve the main problem but at least then guilds can queue without being spat on for it.
If a 5 man is skilled and dominates then good for them. It more often than not shows how lacking in gear or knowledge a the opposing team is.
Fraywind could be so much more enjoyable if people didn't feel entitled to be carried. I've been in FWC premades were we just couldn't do it. We were out gunned at every turn because 10 people either afked or simply lacked the skill bar to do it. Then there's the case of traps and trolls the real scum of Teras PvP.
Thew problem with 15 man queue, is it would almost never pop. Without solo queuers, there's just not enough people. Even if they reduced it to 10 vs 10, I don't see queues popping.
I'm out of ideas. It seems NA over time has become a place in which the PvE community are treated like royalty while the PvP one suffers. Might be time for me to find a new game or move on to an actual PvP server. For now I'll have to sit back and wait it out.