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New Class is OP confirmed

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Comments

  • Yamazuki wrote: »
    Pixelator wrote: »
    Yamazuki wrote: »
    Jordansb1 wrote: »
    Kimimishan wrote: »
    Jordansb1 wrote: »

    Isn't that the same dude who post stuff such as ?
    Where's your thread about Warrior doing 4mil/s on 3rd RMHM, Mister Useful Thread ? Where's the riot when it's not the flashy new class ? Where is the "omg this is so [filtered] up, people hear me let us complain in a socially approved manner and I shall take all the credit and feel validated for calling it out as first !" ?

    First of all, I'm not sure if it's the same guy who makes those videos. I don't watch too many of them, I was just browsing my recommended feed and found it.


    Second of all, you sound a bit salty, but you sound a bit salty at me, which I'm having a somewhat hard time understanding. You're mad at me because I didn't make a thread about other "OP" classes doing a lot of damage? If that's not it, further explanation would be appreciated.

    Well, you did say 'rip warriors' even though by your standards they are equally over powered in KR. Gunner is also lower than Slayer, yet no complaints about them being trash.
    Two very simple reasons:
    1. Gunners do very well in raids (aka THE endgame atm, despite being able to run it once a week) due to their guaranteed crit skills. Slayers are bottom tier in both raids and regular dungeons.

    2. People tend to like having strong classes rotated out of the spotlight. Gunners were dominating just a year and a half ago, to the extent that you would expect from a new class (50-100% over the next best class). Yes, Slayers were among the top (Berserker, Slayer, and Reaper? I believe) during FoA, but not bounds better than the rest.

    Even before HH, forums claimed Gunner was still good despite being lower than Slayer, yet Slayer is bad. Also, after Gunner was quickly nerfed Slayer was on par with Gunner when Gunner had been "op", yet Slayer was seen as bad despite being tied with Gunner. This is obviously nothing more than bias. Apparently it's okay for "old" classes to be over powered as long as the "new" ones are useless. Realistically, people want what ever class they play to be the dominant class, because apparently it makes them feel good out performing others even if they have an advantage.

    You can't set a standard and only follow it at your convenience, it's either there for all classes, or none at all.

    I think you're having a fundamental misunderstanding as to why slayer is bad whereas gunner is largely just considered bottom tier.

    Let's look at it from a purely pve standpoint as if you want to know why slayer is terrible in pvp there are plenty of threads that clearly spell it out better than I ever could.

    First, in terms of dps they are both at the bottom of the barrel with slayer doing slightly better or worse depending on the boss in a 5-man scenario. For example, if one looks at dps results for RMHM bosses there is an ~ 50k dps difference between the two and it swings both ways depending on the boss. However, if we look at results for HH you see a different picture where gunners do relatively well whereas slayers are still bottom tier. So your claim that gunners are lower than slayers isn't exactly truthful.

    Second, the thing that makes slayers bad isn't just their dps. Many slayer skills are in the best case slightly buggy and in the worst case completely broken, sometimes both. For example let's look at heart thrust (HT). It still has the classic problem of having a flawed hitbox, which has been complained about for years, where if you cast it while in the wrong position the hit wont land even though the animation clearly shows it passes through the target. Of course, experienced players learn to account for this so I'd consider it to be slightly buggy. However, HT has another trait that makes it completely broken in that character collision while casting it isn't properly programmed. This means that when casting it from a safe position (back of the boss) if the direction of the skill through the boss is in an area where the boss is doing damage you will sometimes take the damage as if you're actually standing on the other side of the boss. Pretty much all slayer skills display one of these two flaws. Now if we look at gunner, as far as I'm aware, all of their skills function as they should with a few that may be slightly buggy but nothing game-breaking.

    Third, gunners are a far safer class than slayers. Heavy armor, self heals, ranged class, etc.

    So, the argument as to why slayers are worse than gunners doesn't actually stem from slayers being an "old" class and gunners being a "new" class but rather due to the fact that slayers have more problems than just their dps hence why everyone is calling for a slayer revamp and not a gunner revamp. To put it simply slayers are like a vehicle where everything is falling apart whereas with gunners everything is working properly but they just need a bit more gas.
  • YamazukiYamazuki ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pixelator wrote: »
    Slayer was, by consensus, the weakest class during the Timescape era. The time where Slayer was viewed to be even on par with Gunner was around the Ninja patch. Gunners got nothing but nerfs since their release, and Slayer had buffs after buffs since then - and only then were they on par.
    I never said that gunners "deserve" to be weaker than an old class. If anything, in my previous posts, I've been pairing Slayer/Gunner as the two weakest and are in need of buffs. But people's viewpoint on classes are heavily affected by the class' state in the past.
    I am referring to this year where Gunner was still "over powered" while Slayer was performing just as well. People judge gunner strictly based on the forums telling them it is over powered, and how strong they "seem" while leveling; even a lot of strengths they list for Gunner aren't strengths at level 65, but while leveling... I don't know why, but people keep judging classes based on pre 65 performance
    Pixelator wrote: »
    Also, aren't you the one who rolled an Sorc, then an Archer, following their revamps? I wouldn't lecture people on "wanting what ever class they play to be the dominant class" if that is the case. I've stuck with my class through thick and thin.
    I primarily tank and heal. The issue is, if I want to dps, then I'm kind of stuck waiting an eternity for a tank (or healer). My Archer is mostly used for IOD, and HH. My Sorc, I stopped playing it shortly after the revamp as I played it a lot before it. I also played Archer before the revamp as well anyways. If I could dps more often I would probably gear either Slayer or Berserker. I'm just very diverse in any game I've played, Reaper is the only class I don't play. Just could never get into it for some reason, not even when it was seen as over powered.

    I would also like to note, I said "Realistically, people want what ever class they play to be the dominant class". This means, people who "main" a class, want their "main" to be over powered. Rerolling to be more efficient is different than complaining about your "main" not being over powered. I personally don't care for what's over powered, I lack an attachment to any dps class since I enjoy them all excluding Reaper. I won't play one even if they were completely dominant.

    @LessThanNone Response within spoilers.
    First, in terms of dps they are both at the bottom of the barrel with slayer doing slightly better or worse depending on the boss in a 5-man scenario. For example, if one looks at dps results for RMHM bosses there is an ~ 50k dps difference between the two and it swings both ways depending on the boss. However, if we look at results for HH you see a different picture where gunners do relatively well whereas slayers are still bottom tier. So your claim that gunners are lower than slayers isn't exactly truthful.
    Being better in a single temporary instance designed differently that a small fraction of the player base participates hardly qualifies as a positive. What happens when HH is gone and we're back to standard instances? If anything Gunner should just be changed to be equally well in any instance, same goes for any class. Balancing around HH is meaningless unless those sort of defense values become the standard in the future. If anything, HH just needs to be changed to how every other instance is. I also don't consider HH to be a positive for Gunner, it is only doable once a week and only a small portion of the player base even completes it.
    Heavy armor
    You realize that means very little in the grand scheme of things? Armor type is nothing but for aesthetics at this point since the defense for both armor types and classes individually were altered... In addition to the fact some classes have damage reduction abilities, or blocks, which makes them tankier. A Lancer that isn't running around in +15 doesn't survive because of heavy armor, they survive because they can block, notice how if they face tank something that can't be blocked they die in 1 hit?
    self heals
    This requires you to not move, to not use AB, and heals for nothing. Potions are better and accessible by every class if you want heals from something not a healer. If you sit there waiting to be healed then you aren't doing a lot of damage.
    ranged class
    Unless an encounter is designed to be unfriendly to melee ranged is a set back in an average group. However, what current instance has attacks focused on melees only and ignores ranged? Ranged is only better when the class is better, not due to range itself being better. Melees in this game are very well compensated for being melee compared to the usual mmorpg. Berserker is the only melee that struggles in an average situation. I personally mostly play melee for a reason.
    etc.
    Etc what? You can't list only positives, because you can make even the worst designed class in any game look over powered doing that. Gunner has so many weakness in pve compared to even other ranged classes. Look at how slow they are compared to Archer/Sorc. Look at their lakc of iframes, look at how even though they have "Heavy Armor" they are just as squishy. They were meant to do high dps, in exchange they were slow but got "Heavy Armor" and Recall, plus their passive, for some added safety. but, Heavy Armor is basically shiny paper, Recall doesn't work on a lot of things, and Gunner's passive doesn't trigger for many things that would realistically kill you. Slayer has quite a few things over Gunner, and any "issues" they may have isn't relevant, since even with these issues they still perform on par with Gunner.
    So, the argument as to why slayers are worse than gunners doesn't actually stem from slayers being an "old" class and gunners being a "new" class but rather due to the fact that slayers have more problems than just their dps hence why everyone is calling for a slayer revamp and not a gunner revamp. To put it simply slayers are like a vehicle where everything is falling apart whereas with gunners everything is working properly but they just need a bit more gas.
    This doesn't even answer the fact that Warrior in KR reached 4m/s but that's "balanced/low dps" while the new class doing 4m/s is "over powered"? I can go on with quite a ton of examples to show the bias honestly. There's also been quite a lot of hostility on forums, and even in-game towards simply playing a new class. There's really no point in denying the irrational biased when this thread is just proof it exists.
  • ZoknahalZoknahal ✭✭✭✭✭
    Worry not, the new class will be nerfed, after, lets just be generous: 6 months? or maybe it will be nerfed once there are enough dead man coffin threads on the Slayer sub forum on Inven. But look at the bright side, this class will be so damn op, so powerful, that once the Slayer becomes extinct, BHS will finally revamp it.
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