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6 Problems with PvP, Battlegrounds, and How to Fix Them.
So I played and PvPed (alot) 3 years ago back in the VM1 days when PvP was very much alive. It wasn't perfect and there were problems, but here is some of what I remember: gigantic GvG's during nexus and otherwise, team and solo 3s popped all day, fwc and corsairs ran like clockwork, people hung out outside of kanstria (also outskirts) messing around and dueling all day, and people PvPed in the open world over BAM spots to farm Argon Vitriol. I left the game around when VM2 came out. I came back around 4 months ago and here are my opinions on why PvP is in a bad place.
I'll try to be as concise as I can.
1. There are too many battlegrounds for the current population of players. - The December power hours really made this clear. There are enough player to get consistent ques in one game mode at a time when they are directed what and when to play. There are not enough players for ques to pop in any timely manner naturally when there are so many modes and no attempts to direct players when to play.
2. There are no leaderboards - PvP is a competition. Players want recognition and a goal to work towards. Leaderboards provide a sense of community and accomplishment. If a player invests time and effort into becoming successful in a game mode, there should be some proof of that.
3. PvP Battlegrounds are not rewarding to play, and more importantly, not uniquely rewarding. - There are no items that are worthwhile to get through PvP Battlegrounds. VM mats are too expensive and the weekly caps make spending BC and KS on them inefficient and not worthwhile. There are no unique cosmetics, equipment, or items of any sort that can only be obtained through pvp (smart dyad structures being an exception) so there is no way to reward players who spend their time in these modes.
4. Kumas Royale is a permanent game mode and most new players introduction to battlegrounds - Kumas is one of the easiest ways to level. It is a side-game and has no mechanics which complement or teach about the rest of the game. It is far too rewarding (relative to other battlegrounds) for the time invested. It is frustrating and players often feel powerless over the outcome of the match as they are reduced to hoping they get a player who is a skilled Mama or that the other team has a Mama who is worse than theirs. It should be at most a seasonal game mode.
5. There is no reason to PvP in the open world except to grief other players - In the VM 1 days, there were two resources that could be denied or defended through PvP: Argon Vitriols and Nexus Nodes. You needed to farm BAM's in the open world for Argon Vitriols (a necessary item for VM1 equipment and tradeable) and would often have to defend the best spots or be forced out of them. Nexus was the perfect time to declare GvG and to fight large battles. This resulted in some frustrating experiences for some players but it was nothing that couldn't be worked around if you wanted to avoid PvP confrontations. Now the only reason to ever outlaw is grief new players leveling or to mess around outside of the gates of Crescentia, which is a poor replacement to the social hub Kanstria use to be.
6. All relevant battlegrounds use equalized equipment - Players want to be able to use PvP gear. Equalized battlegrounds have their place, and so do battlegrounds that let players use their gear that they customize and earn through investing their time and resources in the game. Do to the nature of the new Awakening Enchanting system (+15 gear with many tiers) and the consolidation of the best PvP players into a small number of guilds along with ability to que as a pre-made team, new adjustments must be made to the queing system. Team Skyring is the only unequalized battleground, and even if it ever popped, would be unplayable for the majority of the population due to gear disparity.
How do you solve these problems? My suggestions:
1. A permanent power hour schedule - This would give direction to the population as to which modes to que at what times. You don't need to double the rewards, it could simply be a jackpot or a 50% increase. The important thing is the consolidation of the player base who wishes to PvP into one mode at a time in order to reduce downtime waiting in que (or make them pop at all).
2. Bring back leaderboards. - DUH. OBVIOUSLY.
3. Revamp the BC and KS rewards shop. - I could list every adjustment I could think to make, like reducing the cost of VM mats, adding unique untradeable cosmetics, or increasing the weekly credit limit. We've all heard them or thought them. The bottom line is that the credit shops need to be improved to something more worthwhile.
4. Remove Kumas Royale as a permanent game mode - If you want this in the game so badly, make it seasonal. Do not keep it as the best way to level. Do not keep it as the most efficient way to farm credits. Do not make it new players first introduction to PvP battlegrounds.
5. Provide incentive to Open World PvP besides griefing? - Honestly, with the addition of Island of Dawn and how troublesome of a system Nexus was, I am stumped as to a solution to this problem in the current game state.
6. Bring back Un-Equalized Fraywind Canyon, and make all Un-Equalized Battlegrounds Solo Que Only. - The problem with unequalized battlegrounds is getting stomped by an over-geared premade with no way to win. Forcing players to solo q in the geared battlegrounds will make matches more even and more enjoyable for all those involved, and make the leaderboards for those battlegrounds better reflect individual skill. Want to play with your friends? The equalized battlegrounds should still allow premades. Why is champion skyring solo equalized, while champion skyring teams unequalized? It is fairly obvious that the reverse should be true if you want to promote more balanced and enjoyable game play. All the problems from geared battlegrounds come from unequal teams that lead to unwinnable situations for one side. The solution for that is to let matchmaking handle it the best it can by allocating players individually to make the fairest teams it is capable of, and keep premades to the equalized modes.
I hope this post can provide a place to have a productive conversation about these issues.
I'll try to be as concise as I can.
1. There are too many battlegrounds for the current population of players. - The December power hours really made this clear. There are enough player to get consistent ques in one game mode at a time when they are directed what and when to play. There are not enough players for ques to pop in any timely manner naturally when there are so many modes and no attempts to direct players when to play.
2. There are no leaderboards - PvP is a competition. Players want recognition and a goal to work towards. Leaderboards provide a sense of community and accomplishment. If a player invests time and effort into becoming successful in a game mode, there should be some proof of that.
3. PvP Battlegrounds are not rewarding to play, and more importantly, not uniquely rewarding. - There are no items that are worthwhile to get through PvP Battlegrounds. VM mats are too expensive and the weekly caps make spending BC and KS on them inefficient and not worthwhile. There are no unique cosmetics, equipment, or items of any sort that can only be obtained through pvp (smart dyad structures being an exception) so there is no way to reward players who spend their time in these modes.
4. Kumas Royale is a permanent game mode and most new players introduction to battlegrounds - Kumas is one of the easiest ways to level. It is a side-game and has no mechanics which complement or teach about the rest of the game. It is far too rewarding (relative to other battlegrounds) for the time invested. It is frustrating and players often feel powerless over the outcome of the match as they are reduced to hoping they get a player who is a skilled Mama or that the other team has a Mama who is worse than theirs. It should be at most a seasonal game mode.
5. There is no reason to PvP in the open world except to grief other players - In the VM 1 days, there were two resources that could be denied or defended through PvP: Argon Vitriols and Nexus Nodes. You needed to farm BAM's in the open world for Argon Vitriols (a necessary item for VM1 equipment and tradeable) and would often have to defend the best spots or be forced out of them. Nexus was the perfect time to declare GvG and to fight large battles. This resulted in some frustrating experiences for some players but it was nothing that couldn't be worked around if you wanted to avoid PvP confrontations. Now the only reason to ever outlaw is grief new players leveling or to mess around outside of the gates of Crescentia, which is a poor replacement to the social hub Kanstria use to be.
6. All relevant battlegrounds use equalized equipment - Players want to be able to use PvP gear. Equalized battlegrounds have their place, and so do battlegrounds that let players use their gear that they customize and earn through investing their time and resources in the game. Do to the nature of the new Awakening Enchanting system (+15 gear with many tiers) and the consolidation of the best PvP players into a small number of guilds along with ability to que as a pre-made team, new adjustments must be made to the queing system. Team Skyring is the only unequalized battleground, and even if it ever popped, would be unplayable for the majority of the population due to gear disparity.
How do you solve these problems? My suggestions:
1. A permanent power hour schedule - This would give direction to the population as to which modes to que at what times. You don't need to double the rewards, it could simply be a jackpot or a 50% increase. The important thing is the consolidation of the player base who wishes to PvP into one mode at a time in order to reduce downtime waiting in que (or make them pop at all).
2. Bring back leaderboards. - DUH. OBVIOUSLY.
3. Revamp the BC and KS rewards shop. - I could list every adjustment I could think to make, like reducing the cost of VM mats, adding unique untradeable cosmetics, or increasing the weekly credit limit. We've all heard them or thought them. The bottom line is that the credit shops need to be improved to something more worthwhile.
4. Remove Kumas Royale as a permanent game mode - If you want this in the game so badly, make it seasonal. Do not keep it as the best way to level. Do not keep it as the most efficient way to farm credits. Do not make it new players first introduction to PvP battlegrounds.
5. Provide incentive to Open World PvP besides griefing? - Honestly, with the addition of Island of Dawn and how troublesome of a system Nexus was, I am stumped as to a solution to this problem in the current game state.
6. Bring back Un-Equalized Fraywind Canyon, and make all Un-Equalized Battlegrounds Solo Que Only. - The problem with unequalized battlegrounds is getting stomped by an over-geared premade with no way to win. Forcing players to solo q in the geared battlegrounds will make matches more even and more enjoyable for all those involved, and make the leaderboards for those battlegrounds better reflect individual skill. Want to play with your friends? The equalized battlegrounds should still allow premades. Why is champion skyring solo equalized, while champion skyring teams unequalized? It is fairly obvious that the reverse should be true if you want to promote more balanced and enjoyable game play. All the problems from geared battlegrounds come from unequal teams that lead to unwinnable situations for one side. The solution for that is to let matchmaking handle it the best it can by allocating players individually to make the fairest teams it is capable of, and keep premades to the equalized modes.
I hope this post can provide a place to have a productive conversation about these issues.
13
Comments
-back vm1 days: no +15, no dyad, etching, broooch, innerwears, no 999 stats on jewel,
- no broken reaper/gunner/brawler/ninja etc
And no you cant fix it anymore BHS fscked up too far
I think the OP addressed the issue with overgeared players killing unequalized BGs pretty fairly.
Solo queue for unequalized BGs would solve the issue of one side snowballing every single match they get into forcing people out of the mode.
The only issue is that people like playing with their friends.
Class balance isn't what killed PvP in Tera. People were still hella active in PvP on Reaper's release and months after that. Do you remember Reaper on release? Godbless your soul.
Just give people a reason to PvP and they'll do it.
Right now there's absolutely no reason to PvP other than "fun"
People don't play MMOs for fun though, they're all masochists/workaholics who need to get something such as profit from their actions. Rewards are important.
You can create the most fun dungeon in the world, but no one's going to play it if it gives garbage rewards.
People don't just PvE for "fun" it's to get something out of it.
Gotta mix fun and rewards together to make something successful, one is nothing without the other.
#2 they shoud still have the leaderboards from the skycastle patch, so that shouldn't really be a problem...
#4 imo its a bad revamp for the kumasylum they had before. All they had to do was ban priest-pull, equalize the gear, and find the right balance... (though they probably didnt do that because the korean players were selling the game. if you were kuma you just afkd and let the feds win...)
ON TOPIC.. making it seasonal would however be a waste tho
#5 i wasn't in tera yet during VM1 (i started right before VM3) so i dont know how open PVP was like. I would sure love to hear some incentives you have in mind, cuz im not sure i can think of something worthwhile, and im sure BHS can't either even if they got paid to do it... oh wait...
#6 halfway through you started about eq versions and un-eq versions of BG, so im not sure if you meant they should make 2 versions of CS/FWC/... but if so, wouldnt that split the playerbase again?
also about the solo queue, i know a lot of people would complain about that because they would want to play with friends. at the very least it should be duo-queue.
2. They had bg leaderboards during vm1 before skycastles too.
4. Full disclosure I hate everything about kumas. Would prefer to have it gone. I hate the fact that a new player gets to level 20, ques for his first battlegrounds, and its kumas. He spams it until he wins and gains like 5 levels and hes like this is awesome and skips a large amount of content in the game playing a mode that alot of people soon detest. Then during any double credit event everyone spams kumas because they know its the most efficient timewise, its something they are used to from leveling and they can level alts while farming credits. It takes players away from other battlegrounds.
5. I have no ideas because fighting over BAM drops is the obvious solution but they spent resources on creating island of dawn which throws this idea out the window. This is the lowest priority item on my list for sure.
6. They had 2 ques when I was playing and equalized ran less often but it still ran regularly. Duo Q for unequalized would be fine I think, maybe even better, but not totally necessary. People will complain no matter what and you need to make decisions for the health of the game long term. If you want to play with friends you can play equalized and you will have a better time than if you played with your friends and ran into one of the PvP BiS geared premades that are spam queing all night every night and got stomped. You can still sync que and play with your friends there's just a chance you'll be killing them instead of killing with them. CS has always been equalized and should stay that way I think.
...And this 65 only change is coming to MT aswell.
Removing it entirely is counterproductive though imo. Just because its broken, doesnt mean you remove it (permanantly) but rather try to fix it (of which their have been threads made and probably ignored too). I totally agree it is a stupid and shallow PVP BG.
if there would be power hours, I would propose that this dungeon would NOT be in it... seeing it is the most active BG during non-power hours anyway...
Also i havent leveled a character in a while, but i thought kumas gave only 1 huge VG daily which gives enough exp for 1 level. i dont know the exp for losing/winning a game, but if it is as high as you say, it should be nerfed along with the credits
http://tera.enmasse.com/news/posts/power-hours-for-january
The schedule helps a lot for exactly the reason stated in the first point, there's not enough people for all queues to pop. Ty for making it only real PVP this time
Monday: Gridiron
Tuesday: Fraywind Canyon
Wednesday: Champions' Skyring
Thursday: Fraywind Canyon
Friday: Corsairs' Stronghold
Saturday: Fraywind Canyon plus jackpot!
Sunday: Corsairs' Stronghold plus jackpot!
cya kumas
if u don't see this, i urge u to open a new account on any foreign server and show me how you're gonna make gold to gear as a new fresh player...
it is certainly true that battlegrounds are the easiest and fastest way to make gold, without having to invest anything in gear. It is not being discussed that this should change, but rather which BG people should do to earn credits (=gold through buying bonanza chests or badges).
if i would rank the BG based on how difficult/challenging they are than i would say Kuma < Iron < CS < FWC (personally)(havent done grid and champion ring enough to say where they belong)
the rewards should correlate with the difficulty as well with the duration spent inside, and on that point, kuma rewards too much KS since most matches take at most 10min to complete, rewards nearly as much KS as FWC and is so shallow compared to the others
A good amount of the gold you can get from BG's are from the dailies too, so it would be important for new players if they can get into all the BG's in a timely manner instead of only Kuma and Iron.
In the end, to help direct people to more BG, it would be good practice if the rewarded credits were better scaled, be it nerf kuma or buff CS & FWC, and preferably the latter
most guides are from a PVE perspective sadly... if you want to get into PVP, you should get a friend or someone, and try out some things. Its mostly important to know your skills (what staggers, what KD's, how long it stuns, what chains) and figure out if there are combo's that let you do dps for as long as possible (for example Zerker could probably KD chain someone to death if he knows what he's doing)
GGWP EME! Literally a few hours after my post the number 1 suggestion is already happening, way to make me look dumb.
It seems like by bg's you mean Kumas, and this highlights the fact that Kumas sucks players out of other pvp battlegrounds solely because it is the most efficient and easiest to farm.
Corsairs use to be the level 20 bg, and it was fine IMO. Taught you about the game, having level 20's complemented the fact that it was balanced around being equalized, and pure PvP isn't the focus. New players don't have to beat the other more experienced players in direct combat, they can man tanks, jump on ships, dps gates, protect ladders, climb ladders. Corsairs has exploded in popularity since the time I played the game and there are quite a few tryhards who would be upset at this, but there's a variety of things that can be done to help low level players be prepared for corsairs. The easiest of those is to give them a parcel with a set of pvp crystals and an explanation of corsairs when they hit level 20. Maybe a video guide on the website.
At some point players have to learn to pvp and EME does very little to help ease this transition. How does anyone learn their pvp combo? Or learn what they are supposed to be doing in corsairs? Trial by fire. Shouldn't be that way. Kumas makes this problem worse by shielding the player from acutal pvp until max level, and then most never try it at all and some just continue to farm kumas for bg credits with no reason to ever evolve and learn because it is already the most efficient way.
i mean whats available to fresh players aka kuma/ iron as you want to deprive them from a source of income to progress what else do people have after spending days leveling up...
also would like to note you learn pvp from duels... just going into fwc or cs or any type of raid teaches nothing... YOU HAVE TO DUEL PEOPLE TO LEARN... that's where trial and error comes...