[TERA PC & Console] En Masse is closing, but TERA lives on! We will continue to support TERA PC (NA) and TERA Console until service is transferred. Stay tuned for more information.
[TERA Console] The Grotto of Lost Souls update (v85) is now live! Read the patch notes here: https://bit.ly/TERACon_v85

[TERA PC] The 64-bit update (v97) is now live. Check out all the changes delivered on August 11 here: https://bit.ly/tera64_patchnotes
[TERA PC & CONSOLE] Summerfest Part 2: The Beach Bash is on from August 11 until September 1! Participate in event activities to earn tokens redeemable for costumes, consumables, mounts, and more! Details: https://bit.ly/tera_sf20

Balancing Patches

This post is going to discuss the lopsidedness of the content we receive in NA and why we as a region cannot let this continue to allow this to happen.

First let's discuss what patches are. According to definition, a patch -in the computing sense is- a small piece of code inserted into a program to improve its functioning or to correct an error. To further expand on this, a patch is new content or a balance to improve old content.

Now with that out of the way, we can look at TERA. We have KTera, JTera, EuTera, and NaTera. There are 4 different versions of TERA, all with their own unique differentiations. While, small, subtle differences can be made for the specific region in order to profit, the gameplay aspect is always the same and you could easily switch to another region and play rather seamlessly. However, one version of TERA seems to always short the rest of the versions. I'm talking about KTera, and since this is mainly to discuss the correlation that KTera's patches affect NaTera, I won't discuss JTera and EuTera from here on in this discussion.

We all know KTera has a Talent System AND we all know En Masse has expressly stated that NaTera will not be implementing the Talent System. Many people think of the KTera's Talent System as just extra buffs. In a way, they are right as it's pretty much just some extra glyphs. However, KTera looks at their Talent System as a means of balancing. A quick example of this would be that KTera grants Priests a crit resist debuff through the Talent System -- however, KTera is giving Mystics the crit resist debuff on their "Volley of Curses" skill. What does this mean for NaTera? Well, NaTera will further push and favor Mystics -who have the crit resist debuff- than Priests who do not have any crit resist debuffs because the lack of a Talent System.

We as a community cannot continue to accept these lopsided patches. To be honest, KTera should either lose the talents in KTera if they're not going to implement them outside of that region or give the other regions the Talent System and we'll work out the bugs. That would be the best way to balance the game across all regions. If this isn't possible, En Masse will need to step up and balance each patch Nexon gives them by hand, but that seems unlikely.

TL;DR: To be honest, this whole topic seems a little repetitive. We're asking two different publishers to work together to make a pretty obvious decision. These same publishers will not- or maybe rather, cannot- even optimize the game properly. These same publishers have refused to release any additional class that isn't gender/race-locked. These same two publishers have constant server outages and major latency issues. Yet, these same two publishers want to expand their game onto the PlayStation and XBOX platforms without fixing the issues that many people have left the game for from the start. Anyways, with rant aside...

In conclusion, we really need to fix the lopsidedness of the content we get from Nexon before it becomes a bigger issue than it already is.
«134

Comments

  • KetothKetoth ✭✭✭✭
    i don't think ktera have the power/endurance buff in HH like NA does. the reason they don't have: they have talents
  • YamazukiYamazuki ✭✭✭✭✭
    The publishers 'refuse' to do anything because they don't develop the game. The KTera patches are not from Nexon, they are from BHS. Nexon is simply selling Tera to the Korean market, just like EME sells it to the North American market. The only thing publishers have much control over are things like events and other minor shop changes. If you look at each region the only changes between them are cash shop related, event related, and some drops/merchants. That's because BHS decides how the base game is, not EME, Nexon, GF, etc. All they can do is forward feedback and make requests based on what their market asks. Although, BHS realistically isn't going to listen to anything that isn't going to profit them. They don't even listen to their home market on every issue.
  • EEEEEWWWW!!! ^ he said Nexon!!
  • seraphinushseraphinush ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    however, KTera is giving Mystics the crit resist debuff on their "Volley of Curses" skill. What does this mean for NaTera? Well, NaTera will further push and favor Mystics -who have the crit resist debuff- than Priests who do not have any crit resist debuffs because the lack of a Talent System.
    The crit resist debuff on Volley of Curses is Talent-specific, ie. we won't get it. thus your argument is.. well you all can decide

  • vkobevkobe ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now with that out of the way, we can look at TERA. We have KTera, JTera, EuTera, and NaTera. There are 4 different versions of TERA, all with their own unique differentiations. While, small, subtle differences can be made for the specific region in order to profit, the gameplay aspect is always the same and you could easily switch to another region and play rather seamlessly.

    no russia tera ?
  • a patch is a piece of material placed over a hole in your garment.

    But seriously, the decisions they make are made to optimise profits. Optimising the client would require them to recode huge sections from scratch which would be incredibly expensive and probably would not generate enough income to justify the expense. Would be almost easier to just create a whole new game I think.

    The gender locking is done to make more revenue from costumes... as has been explained repeatedly.
  • vkobe wrote: »

    Now with that out of the way, we can look at TERA. We have KTera, JTera, EuTera, and NaTera. There are 4 different versions of TERA, all with their own unique differentiations. While, small, subtle differences can be made for the specific region in order to profit, the gameplay aspect is always the same and you could easily switch to another region and play rather seamlessly.

    no russia tera ?

    i knew i was forgetting one. so many teras
  • edited March 2017
    They have said outright, repeatedly, that they balance the classes without considering talents because the other regions won't ever get them. So what makes anyone think that class balance will be any different than what we already have even if they do get rid of talents in Korea? It's just one massive assumption, like "oh, they say that, but they're actually lying and they balance it to talents and just don't care about any other region in the world." Okay, then let's ask a second question: is the game with talents actually any more balanced on the whole than it is here? If so, why is it that the Inven forums are constantly filled with coffins to represent the various classes Korean players have deemed "dead" due to being unbalanced? The fact is that the game is not balanced anywhere and it's not because BHS is secretly using talents as an equalizer. In fact, because of the way talents were implemented in Korea, it can actually never lead to true balance, just greater imbalance over time.

    It's true that, because of the talent system, the class meta in K-TERA is slightly different than what we have here, but that doesn't make it more balanced. It seems to me that this argument only comes up because people feel slighted because there's some talent they have in K-TERA that would make their class more powerful, but without considering all the other things the talent system does to wreck balance the other way.
  • SylvietteSylviette ✭✭✭
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    -snip-

    Not really. Assuming right now all classes in Ktera are balanced with unbalanced talents for each, if they rebalance talents for all classes (or remove talents all together) plus rebalance all classes after that based on the power scale, then all Tera version would be balanced.

    Easy version:
    In Ktera: warrior power scale = 5 + 1( from talents); slayer power scale = 2 + 4 (from talents)
    ~> In NA: warrior = 5; slayer = 2
    If Ktera rebalance talents: warrior = 5 + 1; slayer = 2 + 1 (nerf slayer's talents)
    and rebalance classes afterward: warrior = 5 + 1; slayer = 5 + 1 (buff slayer)
    ~> In NA: warrior = 5 = slayer, in Ktera warrior = 5 + 1 = slayer, both are balanced.
    Done.

    Of course they to do this would have to put the 2 balance patches together for ALL classes to avoid player aggro, thus it's a lots of work that needed to be done all at once. Moreover, rebalancing all classes will eliminate their current strategy of circling FoTM classes, and BHS will be quite hesitate about that.
  • xEmptiness wrote: »
    They have said outright, repeatedly, that they balance the classes without considering talents because the other regions won't ever get them. So what makes anyone think that class balance will be any different than what we already have even if they do get rid of talents in Korea? It's just one massive assumption, like "oh, they say that, but they're actually lying and they balance it to talents and just don't care about any other region in the world." Okay, then let's ask a second question: is the game with talents actually any more balanced on the whole than it is here? If so, why is it that the Inven forums are constantly filled with coffins to represent the various classes Korean players have deemed "dead" due to being unbalanced? The fact is that the game is not balanced anywhere and it's not because BHS is secretly using talents as an equalizer. In fact, because of the way talents were implemented in Korea, it can actually never lead to true balance, just greater imbalance over time.

    It's true that, because of the talent system, the class meta in K-TERA is slightly different than what we have here, but that doesn't make it more balanced. It seems to me that this argument only comes up because people feel slighted because there's some talent they have in K-TERA that would make their class more powerful, but without considering all the other things the talent system does to wreck balance the other way.

    This argument is quite frankly ridiculous. Because the talent system is innately imbalanced, e.g. warriors have bad talents while slayers have amazing ones, balancing with or without the talent system will ensure at least one version of the game is imbalanced.

    If BHS does indeed balance without talents in mind, classes like sorcs, slayers, ninjas with amazing talents will be the strongest classes by far on KR and NA would be balanced.

    If BHS balances with KR version in mind, classes like warriors, LD and berserkers would be overwhelming in NA and every class would be balanced in KR.

    Having talent system does not guarantee balance, but that's a strawman. The point is, without talent system, you guarantee at least 1 version of TERA is imbalanced forever.

    The point I was making is that, if you look at the evidence, neither K-TERA nor NA TERA are balanced anyway as it is. So the fact that K-TERA has talents is itself the strawman that people are trying to blame for the game's lack of balance, even though BHS has said repeatedly that they do not balance with talents in mind. So the problem really has nothing to do with talents at all, it's just the fact that the game is not balanced. Now, I happen to think that "balance" is a moving target and we'll probably never arrive at a point that everyone will be happy with, but it's clear there's work to be done.

    People are trying to be too "smart" and come up with this deep reason why the game isn't balanced given that they know talents exist, or why balance can never happen as long as talents exist, but this is really inconsequential. We already know clearly and unequivocally that talents are not coming here. So, the only message BHS needs to hear from us, just like they get from K-TERA, is "coffins." It's their job to fix it.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is no game where are classes, races or characters are balanced.

    As Sylviette said, that is becuase some developers profit for the FotM and they make it that way so ppl give a chance to every option in the game if posible.

    Sadly, in a game with few choices in classes, races or characters the unfairness from class balance could be more annoying than in other games where you have dozens or hundreds of options to play.
  • ElinUsagi wrote: »
    There is no game where are classes, races or characters are balanced.

    As Sylviette said, that is becuase some developers profit for the FotM and they make it that way so ppl give a chance to every option in the game if posible.

    Sadly, in a game with few choices in classes, races or characters the unfairness from class balance could be more annoying than in other games where you have dozens or hundreds of options to play.
    by few you mean one of teras 12+ classes? i do agree tho, in games like LOST saga were you litterally hae 300+ options to play, you barely notice unbalance
  • edited March 2017
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    Sylviette wrote: »
    snip

    The issue is there is no evidence that they even bothered with looking into talents seriously. If they did, the disparity won't be as big as it is now.
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    They have said outright, repeatedly, that they balance the classes without considering talents because the other regions won't ever get them. So what makes anyone think that class balance will be any different than what we already have even if they do get rid of talents in Korea? It's just one massive assumption, like "oh, they say that, but they're actually lying and they balance it to talents and just don't care about any other region in the world." Okay, then let's ask a second question: is the game with talents actually any more balanced on the whole than it is here? If so, why is it that the Inven forums are constantly filled with coffins to represent the various classes Korean players have deemed "dead" due to being unbalanced? The fact is that the game is not balanced anywhere and it's not because BHS is secretly using talents as an equalizer. In fact, because of the way talents were implemented in Korea, it can actually never lead to true balance, just greater imbalance over time.

    It's true that, because of the talent system, the class meta in K-TERA is slightly different than what we have here, but that doesn't make it more balanced. It seems to me that this argument only comes up because people feel slighted because there's some talent they have in K-TERA that would make their class more powerful, but without considering all the other things the talent system does to wreck balance the other way.

    This argument is quite frankly ridiculous. Because the talent system is innately imbalanced, e.g. warriors have bad talents while slayers have amazing ones, balancing with or without the talent system will ensure at least one version of the game is imbalanced.

    If BHS does indeed balance without talents in mind, classes like sorcs, slayers, ninjas with amazing talents will be the strongest classes by far on KR and NA would be balanced.

    If BHS balances with KR version in mind, classes like warriors, LD and berserkers would be overwhelming in NA and every class would be balanced in KR.

    Having talent system does not guarantee balance, but that's a strawman. The point is, without talent system, you guarantee at least 1 version of TERA is imbalanced forever.

    The point I was making is that, if you look at the evidence, neither K-TERA nor NA TERA are balanced anyway as it is. So the fact that K-TERA has talents is itself the strawman that people are trying to blame for the game's lack of balance, even though BHS has said repeatedly that they do not balance with talents in mind. So the problem really has nothing to do with talents at all, it's just the fact that the game is not balanced. Now, I happen to think that "balance" is a moving target and we'll probably never arrive at a point that everyone will be happy with, but it's clear there's work to be done.

    People are trying to be too "smart" and come up with this deep reason why the game isn't balanced given that they know talents exist, or why balance can never happen as long as talents exist, but this is really inconsequential. We already know clearly and unequivocally that talents are not coming here. So, the only message BHS needs to hear from us, just like they get from K-TERA, is "coffins." It's their job to fix it.

    No, your argument is strawman because unless talents are balanced (which BHS has shown no interest of trying to do), truly balancing both NA and KR simultaneously is an impossible feat. The point isn't whether the game is balanced right now, which I argue it's the most balanced it's ever been, but the fact that leaving talents like this, you simply cannot balance the game.

    That doesn't logically follow at all, actually. The problem is that the talent system, the way it is now, cannot be balanced because it has no limits or caps. New players will forever be behind veterans no matter how they grind. So that is the main reason why it's impossible to balance a build with the current talent system. If not for that, it would be theoretically possible to balance both builds based on some sort of "ideal build" (a balance with no talents, and a balance with ideal talents), but it'd be a royal pain to do. Not impossible... just not likely.

    I'm pretty sure the problem alluded to in the OP is that they feel the game is not balanced now, and that they feel it's because of the talent system. If they thought the game we have now were balanced, I don't think they would be arguing anything, since that'd be pure semantics about internal dev policies and irrelevant to us as players.
  • YamazukiYamazuki ✭✭✭✭✭
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    Sylviette wrote: »
    snip

    The issue is there is no evidence that they even bothered with looking into talents seriously. If they did, the disparity won't be as big as it is now.
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    They have said outright, repeatedly, that they balance the classes without considering talents because the other regions won't ever get them. So what makes anyone think that class balance will be any different than what we already have even if they do get rid of talents in Korea? It's just one massive assumption, like "oh, they say that, but they're actually lying and they balance it to talents and just don't care about any other region in the world." Okay, then let's ask a second question: is the game with talents actually any more balanced on the whole than it is here? If so, why is it that the Inven forums are constantly filled with coffins to represent the various classes Korean players have deemed "dead" due to being unbalanced? The fact is that the game is not balanced anywhere and it's not because BHS is secretly using talents as an equalizer. In fact, because of the way talents were implemented in Korea, it can actually never lead to true balance, just greater imbalance over time.

    It's true that, because of the talent system, the class meta in K-TERA is slightly different than what we have here, but that doesn't make it more balanced. It seems to me that this argument only comes up because people feel slighted because there's some talent they have in K-TERA that would make their class more powerful, but without considering all the other things the talent system does to wreck balance the other way.

    This argument is quite frankly ridiculous. Because the talent system is innately imbalanced, e.g. warriors have bad talents while slayers have amazing ones, balancing with or without the talent system will ensure at least one version of the game is imbalanced.

    If BHS does indeed balance without talents in mind, classes like sorcs, slayers, ninjas with amazing talents will be the strongest classes by far on KR and NA would be balanced.

    If BHS balances with KR version in mind, classes like warriors, LD and berserkers would be overwhelming in NA and every class would be balanced in KR.

    Having talent system does not guarantee balance, but that's a strawman. The point is, without talent system, you guarantee at least 1 version of TERA is imbalanced forever.

    The point I was making is that, if you look at the evidence, neither K-TERA nor NA TERA are balanced anyway as it is. So the fact that K-TERA has talents is itself the strawman that people are trying to blame for the game's lack of balance, even though BHS has said repeatedly that they do not balance with talents in mind. So the problem really has nothing to do with talents at all, it's just the fact that the game is not balanced. Now, I happen to think that "balance" is a moving target and we'll probably never arrive at a point that everyone will be happy with, but it's clear there's work to be done.

    People are trying to be too "smart" and come up with this deep reason why the game isn't balanced given that they know talents exist, or why balance can never happen as long as talents exist, but this is really inconsequential. We already know clearly and unequivocally that talents are not coming here. So, the only message BHS needs to hear from us, just like they get from K-TERA, is "coffins." It's their job to fix it.

    No, your argument is strawman because unless talents are balanced (which BHS has shown no interest of trying to do), truly balancing both NA and KR simultaneously is an impossible feat. The point isn't whether the game is balanced right now, which I argue it's the most balanced it's ever been, but the fact that leaving talents like this, you simply cannot balance the game.

    That doesn't logically follow at all, actually. The problem is that the talent system, the way it is now, cannot be balanced because it has no limits or caps. New players will forever be behind veterans no matter how they grind. So that is the main reason why it's impossible to balance a build with the current talent system. If not for that, it would be theoretically possible to balance both builds based on some sort of "ideal build" (a balance with no talents, and a balance with ideal talents), but it'd be a royal pain to do. Not impossible... just not likely.

    I'm pretty sure the problem alluded to in the OP is that they feel the game is not balanced now, and that they feel it's because of the talent system. If they thought the game we have now were balanced, I don't think they would be arguing anything, since that'd be pure semantics about internal dev policies and irrelevant to us as players.

    No what. New players are always behind vet players by virtue of everything from gear to resources to experience to skill. There is already a huge variety of things that work against new players just like every other game in existence. It doesn't matter that talent is infinitely scaling, just like it doesn't matter that level 1 characters aren't as powerful as level 65 characters.

    The problem comes when different class level 65 characters have different power scaling. Like I said and will repeatedly say if I have to, unless every class at any given level gains equal power from the talent system, otherwise balance is quite literally impossible.
    The issue here is the game is not any more balanced with the talent system than it is without. Also, all these other disadvantages, other than skill, can easily be brought down in a short time frame if dedicated, the talent system isn't like that.
  • edited March 2017
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    Sylviette wrote: »
    snip

    The issue is there is no evidence that they even bothered with looking into talents seriously. If they did, the disparity won't be as big as it is now.
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    They have said outright, repeatedly, that they balance the classes without considering talents because the other regions won't ever get them. So what makes anyone think that class balance will be any different than what we already have even if they do get rid of talents in Korea? It's just one massive assumption, like "oh, they say that, but they're actually lying and they balance it to talents and just don't care about any other region in the world." Okay, then let's ask a second question: is the game with talents actually any more balanced on the whole than it is here? If so, why is it that the Inven forums are constantly filled with coffins to represent the various classes Korean players have deemed "dead" due to being unbalanced? The fact is that the game is not balanced anywhere and it's not because BHS is secretly using talents as an equalizer. In fact, because of the way talents were implemented in Korea, it can actually never lead to true balance, just greater imbalance over time.

    It's true that, because of the talent system, the class meta in K-TERA is slightly different than what we have here, but that doesn't make it more balanced. It seems to me that this argument only comes up because people feel slighted because there's some talent they have in K-TERA that would make their class more powerful, but without considering all the other things the talent system does to wreck balance the other way.

    This argument is quite frankly ridiculous. Because the talent system is innately imbalanced, e.g. warriors have bad talents while slayers have amazing ones, balancing with or without the talent system will ensure at least one version of the game is imbalanced.

    If BHS does indeed balance without talents in mind, classes like sorcs, slayers, ninjas with amazing talents will be the strongest classes by far on KR and NA would be balanced.

    If BHS balances with KR version in mind, classes like warriors, LD and berserkers would be overwhelming in NA and every class would be balanced in KR.

    Having talent system does not guarantee balance, but that's a strawman. The point is, without talent system, you guarantee at least 1 version of TERA is imbalanced forever.

    The point I was making is that, if you look at the evidence, neither K-TERA nor NA TERA are balanced anyway as it is. So the fact that K-TERA has talents is itself the strawman that people are trying to blame for the game's lack of balance, even though BHS has said repeatedly that they do not balance with talents in mind. So the problem really has nothing to do with talents at all, it's just the fact that the game is not balanced. Now, I happen to think that "balance" is a moving target and we'll probably never arrive at a point that everyone will be happy with, but it's clear there's work to be done.

    People are trying to be too "smart" and come up with this deep reason why the game isn't balanced given that they know talents exist, or why balance can never happen as long as talents exist, but this is really inconsequential. We already know clearly and unequivocally that talents are not coming here. So, the only message BHS needs to hear from us, just like they get from K-TERA, is "coffins." It's their job to fix it.

    No, your argument is strawman because unless talents are balanced (which BHS has shown no interest of trying to do), truly balancing both NA and KR simultaneously is an impossible feat. The point isn't whether the game is balanced right now, which I argue it's the most balanced it's ever been, but the fact that leaving talents like this, you simply cannot balance the game.

    That doesn't logically follow at all, actually. The problem is that the talent system, the way it is now, cannot be balanced because it has no limits or caps. New players will forever be behind veterans no matter how they grind. So that is the main reason why it's impossible to balance a build with the current talent system. If not for that, it would be theoretically possible to balance both builds based on some sort of "ideal build" (a balance with no talents, and a balance with ideal talents), but it'd be a royal pain to do. Not impossible... just not likely.

    I'm pretty sure the problem alluded to in the OP is that they feel the game is not balanced now, and that they feel it's because of the talent system. If they thought the game we have now were balanced, I don't think they would be arguing anything, since that'd be pure semantics about internal dev policies and irrelevant to us as players.

    No what. New players are always behind vet players by virtue of everything from gear to resources to experience to skill. There is already a huge variety of things that work against new players just like every other game in existence. It doesn't matter that talent is infinitely scaling, just like it doesn't matter that level 1 characters aren't as powerful as level 65 characters.
    It does matter. The game is constantly resetting gear to allow new players to catch up, and resources only help you up to a certain limit in terms of power. The fact that the change up the classes from time to time is what can even help as far as experience goes, and it allows new players to catch up with their skills. But the fact that talents scale infinitely is the only vector that does not have a cap or equalizer, and that's why it's inherently flawed.

    xEmptiness wrote: »
    The problem comes when different class level 65 characters have different power scaling. Like I said and will repeatedly say if I have to, unless every class at any given level gains equal power from the talent system, otherwise balance is quite literally impossible.
    Class balance isn't actually about "equal power" in a trinity-based MMO, it's about the way classes play off each other to support each other in a party. But, incidentally, this will also be why "balance" will never happen. Some people define balance as the ability for any class to one-vs.-one any other class and have an even match. Some people define balance as that no class gets "rejected" when forming parties since they're all equally in demand. Some people define balance as everyone being able to output identical DPS when measuring during a raid. And so on...

    Anyway, it's good that we're not getting the talent system here, so we don't have to worry about that. If there is class imbalance in our build, BHS has to address it.
Sign In or Register to comment.