We want optimization. Does BHS not care about its player base? Discussion Thread.

CLMH5HH5XP · April 2017

ElinLove wrote: »

CLMH5HH5XP wrote: »

too much words,

all i can say is, retards continue buying emp, nothing will change.

Ye.
Killing the thing that keeps the development alive is what will save the game. JENIUZ.

You expect them to simply enter debt to save the 5 years old game? If it stops being profitable within the allowed budged to release updates, which a full core optimization could possibly blow this budged by far, then it will be axed out. If the income drops significantly as a protest to get updates, it just leaves them less money to do these so called updates, and the game gets axed.

if it stops being profitable, they will work harder and actually start listening to what is going on and what players want.

most games, when the company prove themself, then the players will start pouring money.

well the community here is too dumb, they throw and pour money into the game expecting the company to show gratitude and listen to them lol

for example, look at dota2, the players dont even spend a single cent on the game but the company have given so much to the players and actually listen to them and the players are now actually pouring so much money into the game.

in tera is different, the players pay and expect something in return, it doesnt work this way. when you pay before changes are made, the company will actually think they are doing things right and they are in the right direction. which is how we are now. you continue paying, the company continue thinking what they are doing is right.

but in another point of view, actually what the company is doing IS right. all they need is...

create cool costume loot box --->>> easy profit from dumb players.

CLMH5HH5XP · April 2017

msoltyspl wrote: »

6 years (from KR's perspective) + very lengthy development period since ca. 2007

Pesimistically speaking - whole console move is - most likely - to get as much whales into cash shop as possible, before they all quit. I'd love believe it's different, but that would be naive. I mean - we have one guy (with tools and data from other people) that basically fixed ping-dependency of nearly the whole game at this point - and BHS didn't lift a [filtered] finger for over half a decade.

It's nice and warm to see where they idiotic priorities are.

As for - Microsoft/Sony not letting them get away with crappy port ? Come on ? There's enough poorly functioning junk on both consoles. One mmo more or less, who cares. As long as some money flows.

you are a smart person my friend

the company know their cash shop is addictive and they know they can attract a small number of dedicated players that will actually constantly pour money into the game each time new gear and new costume are released.

Alexexe · April 2017

A year ago the new starter map killed me with low fps and left the game.Now it runs smoothly,liked it till you reach the dungeons it kill it for me again.Hell even in Velika i got more fps than in the dungeons i'm in...
I really like this game damn it:(
Oh well i guess i'll wait again...

msoltyspl · April 2017

ElinLove wrote: »

A terrible game won't flow any money. Simple as that. Actually it will, flow outwards from the company, like a money sink only. You can live with some lower details, you can live with hurr durr horrible 30 FPS, but you can't with 10. It just won't work, no one will want to play a slideshow. The consoles have close to mid/low end PC specs so you will have to change that to work on the heavily multithreaded environment that both 8 core CPU consoles are.

You speak common sense and logic. But it's BHS (and respective publishers on top). I know per-core xbox/ps4 is well, [filtered]. The game should multithread, or it's gonna blow.

And I'd be willing to bet it will blow. Or rather - they will lower/adjust the details with no option to alter it [up] - to the point it will roughly work somehow. Enough to keep casual whales interested in the cash shop.

So think of completely re-coding the interface system - which they WILL do for the controller interface support, the mouse pointer with click on analog just won't do for longer usage - this is no easy task, hence not done in a snap.

We've already seen screenshots of console version. Aside obvious scrolling/button changes, everything else looks litreally the same. Whether it really is the same [filtered] underneath, we will see. But between them doing good job or halfassed job - my bet is on the latter.

And even /if/, we won't likely see jack [filtered] from it on PC.

ElinLove · April 2017

CLMH5HH5XP wrote: »

ElinLove wrote: »

CLMH5HH5XP wrote: »

too much words,

all i can say is, retards continue buying emp, nothing will change.

Ye.
Killing the thing that keeps the development alive is what will save the game. JENIUZ.

You expect them to simply enter debt to save the 5 years old game? If it stops being profitable within the allowed budged to release updates, which a full core optimization could possibly blow this budged by far, then it will be axed out. If the income drops significantly as a protest to get updates, it just leaves them less money to do these so called updates, and the game gets axed.

if it stops being profitable, they will work harder and actually start listening to what is going on and what players want.

most games, when the company prove themself, then the players will start pouring money.

well the community here is too dumb, they throw and pour money into the game expecting the company to show gratitude and listen to them lol

for example, look at dota2, the players dont even spend a single cent on the game but the company have given so much to the players and actually listen to them and the players are now actually pouring so much money into the game.

in tera is different, the players pay and expect something in return, it doesnt work this way. when you pay before changes are made, the company will actually think they are doing things right and they are in the right direction. which is how we are now. you continue paying, the company continue thinking what they are doing is right.

but in another point of view, actually what the company is doing IS right. all they need is...

create cool costume loot box --->>> easy profit from dumb players.

The fact that when profits start to lower, they need to come up with something to get the profits back on track is beyond obvious and I don't understand what part of that did I miss on the original comment.
What was proposed to simply cut off EMP and elite purchases in protest is just stupid tho. There's only so far they'll invest and try to improve until they simply give up. And re-making the entire game engine is not cheap enough to be an option when your budget decreases by every second.
Remember again: there's only so far they'll invest into the project. And this "only so far" changes based on what they have in hands and the perspectives of sales. If you just keep protesting expecting them to enter heavy debit to optimize the game (re-code at least the interface engine, if not way more), it's more likely that this won't translate into direct sales and will instead just keep them in debt and that's it - what not a single company in existence will ever want.

People seem to forget how companies work. People think that it's a huge care bear community giving you a free game cause they love programming and they just feed on smiles and thanks. There's only so far they'll invest until they give up. Redoing everything is out of that "so far".

Again, the console port is what I expect to be the ray of hope of optimization. There's a definite reason to do it for the consoles and after that there's little reason to not port over to PC, and the difficulty of that is low after it's done already.

ArcticSphinx · April 2017

ElinLove wrote: »

People forget the insane amount of work that is to code a 37+GB game. hurr durr most of that is textures. STILL, you've got an insane amount of code to simply redo completely. To find what is bugging the game and making it slow and CPU hogging, it will take ages. It will not be surprising if they had to simply redo the base code of the game. At the very least they'll have to completely re-code the interface system that is said to be the biggest CPU thread hog, or move it to another CPU thread, preferentially on it's own separate core (tho that's up to the OS).

But thinking about the fact that this game is coming now to PS4 and Xbox One, that are heavily multi-threaded machines (8 cores CPU) with quite low single thread performance, it's mandatory that they optimize it. They'll just not be able to get away with crappy FPS on a console game. At least it should be a smooth 30 FPS (yes, smooth 30. 30 FPS IS smooth if you keep it constant. Most of the issues with low FPS is the sudden variation on it not the brute value. Remember cinema movies are 24 FPS). It seems like the console port is our hope to get the FPS TERA should always have ran at, I mean this game came in 2012 and with nowadays hardware it runs just as well as it does with the old one (no kidding, my hardware is pretty much all from that time and it runs at OKish/Perfect in TERA therms FPS).

Considering the low difference in CPU architectures and the optimization of Dead or Alive 5 Last Round, I would say that if console port gets properly done, we'll finally see that good FPS on our PC MASTER RACE machines.

BHS while you're at it: axe out that "light enrichment" final stage and put some real Anti-Aliasing there, that blurry thing is stupid

I hope you're right.

To some extent, I find it difficult to believe that they would port TERA to consoles without optimizing things, as well. Maybe they have rebuilt some things from the ground up and decided that, while they were doing so anyway, they may as well port the game to consoles. Or, alternatively, the opposite: they're porting the game to consoles, so they have to tweak the game and re-factoring the code to make it work (more or less) properly on PS4/XBone and, consequently, it would make sense for them to apply some of the same improvements to PC's as well.

Edit: fixed some grammatical oddness and added an alternate theory. Though, both somewhat assume some amount of logic on the part of EME/BHS, so...

allofspaceandtime · April 2017

eme has posted in the forums a couple of years ago that they will no longer be supporting windows xp and basically if you have windows xp , you need to upgrade your operating system to a newer one like windows 7 or above. so no, windows xp will not be beter because you cannot play tera using windows xp operating system. hope this helps.

BRXTN · April 2017

TsuTsunEmi wrote: »

Optimization is a lot of work. But if BHS had spent the past 3 years working on optimizing the game rather than making horrible contents and classes, Tera would be in a much better shape than right now. We would have good contents and less lag. Instead we have horrible contents and still a lot of lag.

Yeah, it looks like they chose to travel the wrong road.

RiseAbove · April 2017

#optimizetera

ArcticSphinx · April 2017

BRXTN wrote: »

TsuTsunEmi wrote: »

Optimization is a lot of work. But if BHS had spent the past 3 years working on optimizing the game rather than making horrible contents and classes, Tera would be in a much better shape than right now. We would have good contents and less lag. Instead we have horrible contents and still a lot of lag.

Yeah, it looks like they chose to travel the wrong road.

While I agree that optimization is more important from a user experience perspective, it isn't necessarily the kind of change that requires some understanding of the implications of optimization on the game's performance to really be as "exciting" as new classes or new content. I think part of what factored into the decision to not focus as much on optimization might be that BHS thought many casual players (especially whales) are probably more interested in/drawn in by getting shiny new toys to play with than in improvements to how the game runs.

Yamazuki · April 2017

ArcticSphinx wrote: »

BRXTN wrote: »

TsuTsunEmi wrote: »

Optimization is a lot of work. But if BHS had spent the past 3 years working on optimizing the game rather than making horrible contents and classes, Tera would be in a much better shape than right now. We would have good contents and less lag. Instead we have horrible contents and still a lot of lag.

Yeah, it looks like they chose to travel the wrong road.

While I agree that optimization is more important from a user experience perspective, it isn't necessarily the kind of change that requires some understanding of the implications of optimization on the game's performance to really be as "exciting" as new classes or new content. I think part of what factored into the decision to not focus as much on optimization might be that BHS thought many casual players (especially whales) are probably more interested in/drawn in by getting shiny new toys to play with than in improvements to how the game runs.

There have been some minor improvements overtime, and the newer instances do tend to see better performance than older instances. Some issues people have can be fixed by restarting before specific boss fights (or getting a new GPU). They honestly just need to have a larger team to dedicate one to fixing some of the issues the pop up sooner. Seems when they fix some issues, new ones replace them. Some solutions would take them multiple years, because their dev team actually works on several games while being very small.

Pilip25 · April 2017

If u want to see an optimized game in tera in any near future you should ask yourself if its worth for you to play on low fps/graphic and maintain the good combat. If yes stick to tera. If you prefer smooth fps and good graphics you should try another game. As sad as it sounds but tera will probly never be optimized. Just hope and pray for a new mmorpg with as good combat system to be relased before the end of the world.

counterpoint · April 2017

Uptown wrote: »

Personally, I believe that since Tera is essentially a Korean game and owned by Koreans's, their communist type leadership has affected the games ability to evolve and thrive successfully.

...South Korea is a democratic republic. It is not communist. You may be thinking of North Korea.

Further, given that the game has survived six years already with no more optimization than at the present, I don't think the evidence is overwhelmingly in your favor.

ArcticSphinx · April 2017

Uptown wrote: »

ArcticSphinx wrote: »

BRXTN wrote: »

TsuTsunEmi wrote: »

Optimization is a lot of work. But if BHS had spent the past 3 years working on optimizing the game rather than making horrible contents and classes, Tera would be in a much better shape than right now. We would have good contents and less lag. Instead we have horrible contents and still a lot of lag.

Yeah, it looks like they chose to travel the wrong road.

While I agree that optimization is more important from a user experience perspective, it isn't necessarily the kind of change that requires some understanding of the implications of optimization on the game's performance to really be as "exciting" as new classes or new content. I think part of what factored into the decision to not focus as much on optimization might be that BHS thought many casual players (especially whales) are probably more interested in/drawn in by getting shiny new toys to play with than in improvements to how the game runs.

I understand where you're coming from but I have to disagree. I enjoy spending money on cosmetics in games but I'd never spend money on Tera, simply due to it's poor optimization, who knows how well it will run in 6 months time, and I'm not willing to invest money into something that has a high potential of performance loss or complete failure in the not too distant future (Tera as a whole.) Now, league of Legends on the other hand, I've purchased 100's of dollars worth of skins, simply because the game runs excellent and it has a prospering and steady player base. EME can't seem to grasp just how important a happy player base is. Personally, I believe that since Tera is essentially a Korean game and owned by Koreans's, their communist type leadership has affected the games ability to evolve and thrive successfully.

I understand your position, but I didn't meant to suggest that optimization wasn't important--just that maybe BHS (to the best of our knowledge) didn't consider it as important as they should have.

On that note, In the interest in assigning credit--and blame--where it is due: my understanding is that EME is the publisher/localizer, whereas BHS is the developer. Fixing optimization and creating content is more BHS's job than EME's.

EME--based on their own website--is responsible for: building and maintaining an audience (CM's, communication with playerbase, etc.), marketing and data analysis (which may or may not include passing along suggestions to BHS--I'm not sure), customer celations, and handling the server infrastructure and localization (including cash shop stuff, troubleshooting, and anything relating to the hardware and software of the servers themselves).

My point being: I'm sure En Masse Entertainment actually does grasp how important a happy player base is, but they aren't the ones who can/are supposed to address optimization issues--that's Blue Hole Studios. Maybe they can pass our concerns along, but it's no guarantee that the problems will necessarily be fixed.

ElinLove · April 2017

Uptown wrote: »

counterpoint wrote: »

Uptown wrote: »

Personally, I believe that since Tera is essentially a Korean game and owned by Koreans's, their communist type leadership has affected the games ability to evolve and thrive successfully.

...South Korea is a democratic republic. It is not communist. You may be thinking of North Korea.

Further, given that the game has survived six years already with no more optimization than at the present, I don't think the evidence is overwhelmingly in your favor.

I was thinking North Korea, my mistake.
There is over whelming evidence that the game is dying, though. Log on and look at the "LFG" (not during xdrop event) menue or simply q a dungeon. I frequent battlegrounds and pvp in open world daily and by having so much exposure to the community I can't help but notice that it's the same 100-200 people that pvp in open world and run battle grounds. Even durign double and triple drop events it barley makes the game seem 'healthy' or 'normal' it's been one week since the new class release and the game is almost empty again.

Furthermore, if you do a bit of research, you'll find that there are plenty of cases where game optimization has had a 'make or break' effect on a game. The key word you used was "survived" you're right, Tera has "survived" but it is by no means healthy.

I have to disagree with the whole "dying game" thing.
I've been hearing that since joining in 2014. Really. Every single day there's that time of the day where US players are sleeping/working/studying and some whale at 4:30 AM goes "ded gaem" on the chat. Power hours are simply too obscure for non hardcore players - heck I didn't know when it was, and look at me all the time in forums with 16 chars in AV since 2014. Open world PVP was nerfed hard, it never been such a huge thing frankly, and all the "no one does X BG" thing is simply cause the changes didn't go in favor of the people that grinded it nonstop, like FWC full EQ gear, CS Lv 65 lock and so goes.

TERA is a seasonal type, every new big patch there's that huge influx of players, and we did see this in Valkyrie, Ninja, Brawler, Sorc. revamp, Warrior revamp... It just goes like the same formula: new content -> Returning players + new players + current ones stop AFKing and playing Dress Up Simulator 2017 -> Gear grinding starts -> People get geared -> Run some top end dungeons -> OK that's enough, back to Dress Up Simulator 2017 -> "ded gaem" -> New content patch.

Seen it happen over and over. Will see it happen over and over again too. It's not dying, it's a roller coaster type of population/activity.
Seen TERA go trough the entire "BnS will kill this game when it comes" "OK BnS is [filtered] back to TERA...." "BDO Will kill TERA when it comes" "OK screw BDO back to TERA" "Chess Online will kill TERA when it comes" "Barbie Explorer - The Vengeance of Cthulhu will kill TERA when it comes" "Goat MMO Simulator will kill TERA when it comes". It's all the same talk, yet it's always the same thing: this game is easy to get into and not that hard to get back to as well.

Will optimization help it? Sure. Is the game dying cause bad optimization? No and it should have died ages ago if that was the case. Is there hope for optimizations still? Yes, console port coming could bring new good stuff.

We want optimization. Does BHS not care about its player base? Discussion Thread.

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