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The 3rd Party Thread

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  • clfarron4clfarron4 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    @Spacecats, for certain of the 3rd party programs, I've explained the major cause on reddit as follows:
    Take skills like Rapid Fire, Burning Heart, Shield Barrage, Rising Furing and Burst Fire. - The majority of these are core DPS skills. - These all work through manual chain activation to themselves. That means ping is applied to each activation of the chain.

    Taking Rapid Fire as an example, you can observe that some sub-40ms players can get all 7 hits off in less than about 0.8 seconds, where player with more than 100ms ping (which is the case for quite a few NA and CA players) would be lucky to get all 7 hits off in less than 2 seconds.

    You might argue that the skill does the same damage. Yes, the skill does the same damage. What is different is that the lower ping player does that same damage in a significantly smaller amount of time than the higher ping player.

    So, how could things possibly be changes so that with these multi-hit skills do the same amount of hits in a similar time irrespective of ping? Well, there are a two ways that I can see:

    1) The 3rd party programs to emulate low ping. Yes, we know which ones. And it would seem that this is not a preferred approach by EME

    2) Modify the way the skills work so they don't chain themselves, but instead into another skill, in a similar way that Traverse Cut for Warrior works. Why do I suggest this? Well Traverse Cut is multi-hit like the others, but all 13 hits just run by themselves at the same speed regardless of ping and you can chain out after the third hit into Blade Draw or iframe out if you accidentally used it when Blade Draw is not going to come off cooldown fast enough.

    Is there a disadvantage to doing the second option? Of course, because it won't be a quick fix and at skills from at least 5 of the different classes have to be modified to accommodate for the change,

    However, in doing this, I believe you would lower the need for quite a few players feeling the need to use a third party program as suggested in the first solution.
  • Melyodis wrote: »
    in relation to Tera, any tool used to edit the client is a third party software once it's not from BHS it is 3rd party.

    But you could say the same thing about Windows itself. It wasn't made by EME and therefore would be considered third-party by that definition.
  • metagamemetagame ✭✭✭✭
    @Spacecats Glad to see you guys handling this in a professional manner. Keep it up!
    not really, this is a poor attempt at damage control after what had happened yesterday
  • Melyodis wrote: »
    in relation to Tera, any tool used to edit the client is a third party software once it's not from BHS it is 3rd party.

    OMG this guy..really
  • edited April 2017
    What if EME changes their Terms of Service to be more lenient towards 3rd party programs?

    http://tera.enmasse.com/legal/terms-of-service paragraph 13
    We can change the Terms of Service if we want to. If you don't agree with the new Terms of Service, you should cancel the service.
  • JenieveJenieve ✭✭✭
    NeroZaph wrote: »
    you want players stop using those programs, then put pressure on BHS to fix the game and optimize, since we only get, "investigating" as an answer.

    And stop telling players it's their isp connection when you have 100 people lag at the same time, from all around the globe, multiple times an hour.
  • KetothKetoth ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    What are you guys opinion ( and eme) regarding graphical changes in the ue3 engine .ini files in other to make the game playable( not 5fps)?
    Some players can get dizzy with the default FoV? If they dont change they will get sick and stop playing
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK i'll enter it up with some questions that I bet most people have, and I kinda... answered them but hey, I'm no enmasse staff so here it goes:

    1: VPNs and proxies: These are not being banned right? Many people are spreading out the stuff about it being banned and 1234% of the game's players will get banned, even the ones that aren't born yet. Could you clarify on the VPN and proxy issue?

    2: One player asked about macros: my answer was that macros are blocked, but mouse/keyboard hotkey programs aren't the issue. This one could get some clarification but I think it's priority is lower.

    3: The dreaded .ini files changing: This one I think is the highest priority question here. Many players have simply unbearable FPS (on the single digit scale - downright unplayable) under standard conditions. This has been proven over and over to be related to issues on the optimization of the game.
    These players have been using the S1.Engine options tweaks to optimize the performance of the game, giving them a playable or even great experience. Options that cannot be accessed from within the game's own settings menu, can be changed there, for different hardware configurations. Almost any of these settings are of no play advantage to the player, only fixing the game for free.
    The question then goes as: I know you guys will say you can't change and we can't post about it: but your stance regarding it, actively hunting down users that change it or just in case you find out about it? Or are there plans to fix the stuff properly (hope so)?

    4: FoV. This one is one of the few changes you can do to the INIs that could be considered a play advantage. I'll not stand in favor or against it, I never changed these things (not even trying to defend myself, I did try the ini tweaks for perfomance but I didn't have a difference, I'm already at the... "best" optimization for TERA), but many players say they just can't play without headaches with the normal FoV, or there are game modes that require it.
    Either way it should have been a wider selection slider on the game to begin with, but it's not. Hence a modification, this one, same question as number 4. Your stance, actively hunting or just in case people talk about? Or plans to improve the FoV in game?

    5: DPS meter users: That's just regarding the company/GM/CMs stance against it, as it's been a hot topic since it exists. Are you guys gonna actively hunt DPS meter users, or just ban/warn when you see a report or the likes?
  • jongbaejongbae ✭✭✭
    I think what you can try doing is investigating these "3rd party programs":

    - Why is people using them?
    - Does it make the game more playable?
    - If it does, how can we implement this? How can we make our own, official [filtered] that can help the players?

    It's so easy to do but it seems like EME is just lazy to even read about them. I am not questioning your decisions, at the end of the day it's your game, we can't do anything about it apparently, but you need to actually ban cheaters, some of the 3rd party programs were used to improve performance (not actual cheat) but still, I can't say more.
  • MaxogMaxog ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    First off I'd like to preface this saying that the community is primarily upset about EME going back/being unclear on their word about 3rd party programs and client modifications. The clarification posted by Treeshark was that as long as it wasn't harming anyone or anything, everything was good. This persisted until the management change and was assumed to be okay until the recent events.

    The second thing I'd like to say is this game runs awfully, and the compounded effects of the server lag and FPS lag makes for a really terrible gaming experience.

    There are a few main topics I need to outline that everyone needs clarification over EXPLICITLY (if I mention any of these by exact names please edit my post, I'd be greatful to not have my post deleted but I'm not sure if I'll slip up or not) **THAT EME NEEDS TO ADDRESS ONE BY ONE**.

    -DPS Meters
    -Regular Proxy Servers
    -Packet Forwarding Proxy Servers
    -S1 Modifications
    -gpk Modifications

    I think that covers all the topics.

    DPS Meters:
    The policy before was, as long as the meters aren't being used to actively harass someone nor performing malicious things, they were fine to use. DPS Meters only merely look at the packets sent to the TERA servers and don't actually interfere with them in any way shape or form. Whilst it is true that a malicious user could cause packet modifications, the most popular meters are open sourced on github and many people actively look at the code/push/pull to it and any malicious intent from a coder would be immediately known. I myself have looked at the code for some of these and they use standard packet capture software that has a huge reputation and is also open sourced. No harm, no foul used to be the old policy, but not anymore apparently.

    Regular Proxy Servers:
    These are servers that simply route your traffic a different, more efficient way to the TERA servers in order to lower your ping. Again, nothing wrong here, these servers are usually paid for by clients in order to sort of "express lane" their traffic to the TERA servers. No harm, no foul once again.

    Packet Forwarding Proxy Servers:
    These servers identify the use of ping dependent skills on classes in TERA and send to the TERA server the same response as if they're sent consectutively with 0 ping. Harmful? Questionable. Someone would have to look into whether or not 0 response packets to the servers are harmful. Personal Opinion: I THINK EME REALLY NEEDS TO TELL THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THIS ONE AND THE ONE ABOVE TO BE CLEAR. PEOPLE KEEP USING PROXY AS A BLANKET TERM WHEN THE TWO PROXIES ARE ***NOT*** THE SAME

    S1 Modifications:
    These are files used in Unreal Engine 3 to manage things in game such as camera distance and other stuff. Often times, games aren't set to their optimal S1engine modifications and there's a large community surrounding them finding the optimal way to make games run better. EME needs to face that the TERA client runs like garbage and that people want to have a better TERA experience. If EME was really concerned about S1 modifications making the game unfair, then embed the files in something like a dynamic link library or something similar. Players *like* to customize their games' things like FOV, Render distance, on screen particle count, etc. so this game can run on toasters. Harmful? Not in the slightest.

    gpk Modifications:
    These things make things in game look like other things. That's it. Harmful? Questionable, may impact EME profits on cosmetic items.

    Address these, and then we can start talking about each one.
  • D4RK3Y3DLYNXD4RK3Y3DLYNX ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    @Maxog The main problem with open source is that anyone can get the code and modify it to do things it wasn't intended to by the original coders. And gpk modifications can be harmful in that people can remove invisible barriers, which was a major problem when we had the Kumasylum BG as the Kumas or candy carrier could simply walk out-of-bounds to prevent the other team from getting them. I do think that the game should include extra options in-game for the ini files and I can't see a problem with regular proxy servers.
  • The fact that this thread is supposedly primarily for community discussion seems like a bit of a joke. Like you're all trying to moderate the discussion without any stated obligation of responding to the concerns of the community that have been repeatedly addressed and contain it in one place instead of having it vomit all over the forums and subsequently removing and banning posters.

    Please take the time to respond to the serious concerns of the community, there's many things you can legitimately reply to in this thread without fear of breaking your stated company policy or the law. From .ini tweaks to VPNs there are many concerns that completely legitimate players have about being banned or threatened with it if they reveal it on stream. Some of the top Tera streamers still have things like modified HP bars or DPS meters running.

    One of the only reasons your actions have had so much ire from the community is the brazen way this was announced and the incredibly threatening stance that was taken.
  • since today its the stream, can we have answers to some of the questions on this thread?
  • GPK mod is a big NO NO...
  • jongbae wrote: »
    I'm just curious how are we going to discuss about something without mentioning or sharing our argument about them. This is so hard... also makes no sense but ok good try.

    You can talk about them, we're just asking that you not give the software name (making them easier to find and use) or a link. Making a discussion to promote the thing a few people have been banned for seems like a bad idea.
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