The 3rd Party Thread

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  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ceciella wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    Tewii wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    On the 3rd party program side of things, there are players using programs that flip things around so that they're actually doing way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program.

    It has to be said that you're incorrect regarding this. The program I'm sure you know I'm speaking of doesn't alter damage values nor critrates, stats, etc etc...
    All it does is remove the delay inbetween the individual actions of the skill firing off for the client. Realistically, it brings those skills and those skills alone to work closer to how they should instead of being inherently broken.

    I did not know you were a developer from Bluehole, please do tell us why the delay was not removed in Tera instead of using a 3rd party tool?

    Or may be the delay was intentionally added to not overload the servers!

    I'm pretty sure EME and BHS are big boys who don't need you defending them, especially when your speculation is even less helpful than the original post. It's clear you're uneducated on the specifics of what you're taking about but don't let me stop you from shitting up every single thread involved while people just want honest straightforward answers about .ini tweaks, optimization and other things that are not the third party tools.

    I'm not defending anyone, but dismissing my question and comment because somehow I'm not educated to know the specifics is not contructive... Ok smart guy please enlighten us, try not to [filtered] on this thread while you're at it.
  • clfarron4clfarron4 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Spacecats wrote: »
    clfarron4 wrote: »
    @Spacecats, for certain of the 3rd party programs, I've explained the major cause on reddit as follows:
    Take skills like Rapid Fire, Burning Heart, Shield Barrage, Rising Furing and Burst Fire. - The majority of these are core DPS skills. - These all work through manual chain activation to themselves. That means ping is applied to each activation of the chain.

    Taking Rapid Fire as an example, you can observe that some sub-40ms players can get all 7 hits off in less than about 0.8 seconds, where player with more than 100ms ping (which is the case for quite a few NA and CA players) would be lucky to get all 7 hits off in less than 2 seconds.

    You might argue that the skill does the same damage. Yes, the skill does the same damage. What is different is that the lower ping player does that same damage in a significantly smaller amount of time than the higher ping player.

    So, how could things possibly be changes so that with these multi-hit skills do the same amount of hits in a similar time irrespective of ping? Well, there are a two ways that I can see:

    1) The 3rd party programs to emulate low ping. Yes, we know which ones. And it would seem that this is not a preferred approach by EME

    2) Modify the way the skills work so they don't chain themselves, but instead into another skill, in a similar way that Traverse Cut for Warrior works. Why do I suggest this? Well Traverse Cut is multi-hit like the others, but all 13 hits just run by themselves at the same speed regardless of ping and you can chain out after the third hit into Blade Draw or iframe out if you accidentally used it when Blade Draw is not going to come off cooldown fast enough.

    Is there a disadvantage to doing the second option? Of course, because it won't be a quick fix and at skills from at least 5 of the different classes have to be modified to accommodate for the change,

    However, in doing this, I believe you would lower the need for quite a few players feeling the need to use a third party program as suggested in the first solution.

    It can be pretty unfortunate for players with higher ping to use those skills, I agree. There are often "high latency builds" for glyphs and rotations that simply ignore those abilities in the case that your ping is so high that it affects them. That's not an excuse for why the skills shouldn't be changed mechanically, but there are workarounds. There are players out there that still do decent DPS (enough to clear hard mode dungeons) with those other builds.

    Let's see:

    Rapid Fire (Archer): If i'm not mistaken, since the Archer Revamp, this skill is both a core DPS skill because it got buffs and contributes to a secondary buff mechanic. For higher ping players, using it means they get to use the secondary mechanic at the cost of doubling the time it takes to cast the skill; not using it means a severely reduced usage of the secondary mechanic and no equivalent fillers to make up for the DPS loss that a low ping player would have. I would say that's a significant disadvantage to them, even if they can clear without it. EDIT: Luniack's post below explains this visually very well with a video reference AND is applicable to players within the United States and Canada.

    Burning Heart (Ninja) and Burst Fire (Gunner): If I'm not mistaken, these are intermediary DPS skills that you use with the secondary meters whilst the big skills (so, Fire Avalanche and Balders) are on cool down. And I believe that they can hit for quite a bit. Leaving them in slows down your rotation because you are casting them slower (therefore lowering your overall DPS) and I don't think that eliminating them from a rotation is a good idea because it'd be quite a notable DPS loss.

    Shield Barrage (Lancer) and Rising Fury (Warrior): Whilst these skills are only two activation long chains, they are core skills that you use often to activate other important skills (Spring Attack for Lancer, Blade Draw for Warrior). For Lancer, high ping does noticeably slow down Shield Barrage, which adds up over the course of a fight and removing this skill from the rotation is essentially the same as kissing the class goodbye (yeah, it literally doesn't work without this skill). For Warriors, again it's slower, though it's a minor convenience if you remove Rising Fury.

    There are other skills which I could probably add into this as well, but I mostly play Warrior and Lancer.
    Spacecats wrote: »
    On the 3rd party program side of things, there are players using programs that flip things around so that they're actually doing way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program. I'm not saying they all function like that or that it's even a majority of people, but when it happens it changes from a solution to blatantly cheating the system and other players, and we have to act on that.

    At least we agree on this point.
  • LuniackLuniack Velika Outskirts ✭✭✭
    Spacecats wrote: »
    clfarron4 wrote: »
    @Spacecats, for certain of the 3rd party programs, I've explained the major cause on reddit as follows:
    Take skills like Rapid Fire, Burning Heart, Shield Barrage, Rising Furing and Burst Fire. - The majority of these are core DPS skills. - These all work through manual chain activation to themselves. That means ping is applied to each activation of the chain.

    Taking Rapid Fire as an example, you can observe that some sub-40ms players can get all 7 hits off in less than about 0.8 seconds, where player with more than 100ms ping (which is the case for quite a few NA and CA players) would be lucky to get all 7 hits off in less than 2 seconds.

    You might argue that the skill does the same damage. Yes, the skill does the same damage. What is different is that the lower ping player does that same damage in a significantly smaller amount of time than the higher ping player.

    So, how could things possibly be changes so that with these multi-hit skills do the same amount of hits in a similar time irrespective of ping? Well, there are a two ways that I can see:

    1) The 3rd party programs to emulate low ping. Yes, we know which ones. And it would seem that this is not a preferred approach by EME

    2) Modify the way the skills work so they don't chain themselves, but instead into another skill, in a similar way that Traverse Cut for Warrior works. Why do I suggest this? Well Traverse Cut is multi-hit like the others, but all 13 hits just run by themselves at the same speed regardless of ping and you can chain out after the third hit into Blade Draw or iframe out if you accidentally used it when Blade Draw is not going to come off cooldown fast enough.

    Is there a disadvantage to doing the second option? Of course, because it won't be a quick fix and at skills from at least 5 of the different classes have to be modified to accommodate for the change,

    However, in doing this, I believe you would lower the need for quite a few players feeling the need to use a third party program as suggested in the first solution.

    It can be pretty unfortunate for players with higher ping to use those skills, I agree. There are often "high latency builds" for glyphs and rotations that simply ignore those abilities in the case that your ping is so high that it affects them. That's not an excuse for why the skills shouldn't be changed mechanically, but there are workarounds. There are players out there that still do decent DPS (enough to clear hard mode dungeons) with those other builds.

    On the 3rd party program side of things, there are players using programs that flip things around so that they're actually doing way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program. I'm not saying they all function like that or that it's even a majority of people, but when it happens it changes from a solution to blatantly cheating the system and other players, and we have to act on that.

    Spacecats you can't understand about people who have high ping, there no way to do a simple dps or tanking bosses on pve, mechanics can kill you fast without appear at your scream, and at pvp... well, any low ping person have more chances to beat you, it's simple.
    Look this exemple:

    I'm not toxic, i'm just leaving facts about players like me who not alive in US and spend money and life at this game, who needs same considerate than people who alive closes from server.

    Anyway, thanks for opening dialogue with us.
  • Aizajar wrote: »
    First of all I want to apologize for my potato english. :)
    There are often "high latency builds" for glyphs and rotations that simply ignore those abilities in the case that your ping is so high that it affects them.
    Yeah, you has the point here, but lets be honest, nobody wants to play with 250-300ms, and even if our ping is at 20-40ms, lag spikes still there, making the game unplayable (and no need to say also the game has a horrible optimization with make us play with stuttering/low FPS)

    Tweaks were made in order to make this game better (ping taxes and FPS drop rates), a lot of this stuff has been ignored for years by devs; the community was the real solution to this issues. Not EME nor BHS.

    Don't take this an aggresion, this is just my opinion.

    The fact that there are 'high latency builds' to begin with is sad. It's sad that there are people that have to simply not use a skill at all because the delay/desync isn't worth it. For example high ping sorcs have trouble with/sometimes have to eliminate using Flaming Barrage because it won't even function properly with the speed casting glyph. That sort of thing is a problem.

    The servers have gotten worse and worse since ninja patch and then (un)surprisingly got even worse after valkyrie patch. The amount of ping spikes and desync I've been seeing is ridiculous. It's not fun to have a boss not move and then suddenly your entire party is dead. It's not fun to have the game lock up and half your party gets disconnected. That is a server issue not an isp issue.
  • Bluehydra wrote: »
    LTLTW3RELG wrote: »
    Yberion wrote: »
    Yeah well, how well made is an MMO where you can just go through walls by opening the game folder and deleting a gpk? It's probably why they deleted kumasylum, but the game has many more stupid flaws like that.

    not just deleting i wonder if some can alter iframe values cos i saw a videorecording..im not sure tho if thats gpk mod

    @Yberion
    I highly doubt its the case, as far as ive seen .gpk mods only alter the looks of things, so for example, you could swap costume A for costume B, but if you highlighted anyone wearing that modded costume B, you would still see the outline for costume A. You cannot modify meshes or open holes in walls. I understand them being disallowed because they could impact cosmetic item sales, but not for cheating (at least, not in my knowledge) You most likely saw a different kind of modification.
    Also, about kumasylum, i remember it being removed because Ktera players had an unspoken agreement that the kuma team would always throw the match, making the game mode useless.

    Edit: sorry @LTLTW3RELG i meant to reply to Yberion but i derped

    thank you for enlightening me.yeah your right maybe a diff mod..but in that case if it impacts the sales of the company for me its so unfair
  • @spacecats
    Since you are allowing us to speak about 3rd party programs and mods, I'll give my two cents.

    Instead of outright banning player for using them I personally believe that the best scenario for both EME and us players is to properly regulate the creation and the safe use of mod/programs in Tera. This is, obviously, not an easy task; however, your community is willing to help you with this, in fact desperately so. We love Tera and, as much as you at EME, want this game to succeed and prosper. However, in its current state, without using mods/programs Tera would be downright unplayable for many current and potential users.

    So, how can we do this?

    Why not, instead of making a blanket statement that anyone found using either of the aforementioned items will be permanently banned, create a new sub-forum that is dedicated to the safe creation and use of mods/programs for Tera? This sub-forum could require strict moderation (for example requiring moderator permission before a thread can be posted) by both EME and EME elected players (similar to that of the player council) who are knowledgeable about the creation and use of mods/programs in Tera and who have firm guidelines about what is and isn't acceptable for use in Tera. This way we could collect all of the mods/programs that straight up improve the player experience in a place where all of the player base can equally access them while at the same time making a statement that use of unlisted mods/programs will result in action against your Tera account.

    Not expecting a reply (since like you said, there are some things that you can't answer and this is probably one of the), just some food for thought,
    LTN
  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    Ceciella wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    Tewii wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    On the 3rd party program side of things, there are players using programs that flip things around so that they're actually doing way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program.

    It has to be said that you're incorrect regarding this. The program I'm sure you know I'm speaking of doesn't alter damage values nor critrates, stats, etc etc...
    All it does is remove the delay inbetween the individual actions of the skill firing off for the client. Realistically, it brings those skills and those skills alone to work closer to how they should instead of being inherently broken.

    I did not know you were a developer from Bluehole, please do tell us why the delay was not removed in Tera instead of using a 3rd party tool?

    Or may be the delay was intentionally added to not overload the servers!

    I'm pretty sure EME and BHS are big boys who don't need you defending them, especially when your speculation is even less helpful than the original post. It's clear you're uneducated on the specifics of what you're taking about but don't let me stop you from shitting up every single thread involved while people just want honest straightforward answers about .ini tweaks, optimization and other things that are not the third party tools.

    Maybe educate people on the specifics instead of dismissing and insulting them ¬.¬?
  • Ves1978Ves1978 ✭✭✭✭
    1) IMO dps meter is fine as long as you use it to analyze your own performance and work on your improvement. but when you come to situation when people want to kick party members cause of low dps, that's something that is not acceptable. in previous patch i had dfnm!!!!!!! run with one guildie and he wanted to kick someone cause of low dps. i mean it's a damn dfnm!!!! and funniest thing is that my guildie was a player with +15 imperator that couldn't clear even SSNM. so that's mainly the reason why dps meters are not allowed, not cause of program itself, but cause of toxic lowlifes like him.

    2) making changes in .ini files are messing with client, i understand that, but i'm playing on 8 years old laptop with i3 cpu, so before i made those changes game was barely playable for me, even now i get single digit FPS numbers in shadow sanguinary or HH for expample, but at least it's possible for me to play.

    3) whole bunch of injectors that allow players any kind of exploit are main reason that EME decided to start with banning people. i'm not opposed to ones that simulate 0 ping cause they make a big difference for high ping players. let's be honest, every class has ping dependant skills.

    I have to agree with LesbianVI, main source of the problem are devs who didn't do a single thing to improve their game and it had lead us to situation we have now. i hope they will finally open their eyes and improve the game.
  • Ginjitsu wrote: »
    .
    Ceciella wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    Tewii wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    On the 3rd party program side of things, there are players using programs that flip things around so that they're actually doing way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program.

    It has to be said that you're incorrect regarding this. The program I'm sure you know I'm speaking of doesn't alter damage values nor critrates, stats, etc etc...
    All it does is remove the delay inbetween the individual actions of the skill firing off for the client. Realistically, it brings those skills and those skills alone to work closer to how they should instead of being inherently broken.

    I did not know you were a developer from Bluehole, please do tell us why the delay was not removed in Tera instead of using a 3rd party tool?

    Or may be the delay was intentionally added to not overload the servers!

    I'm pretty sure EME and BHS are big boys who don't need you defending them, especially when your speculation is even less helpful than the original post. It's clear you're uneducated on the specifics of what you're taking about but don't let me stop you from shitting up every single thread involved while people just want honest straightforward answers about .ini tweaks, optimization and other things that are not the third party tools.

    Maybe educate people on the specifics instead of dismissing and insulting them ¬.¬?


    Im not a person who likes to pick side, i see the side from eme, and i can understand why they can not act on certain subjects, or talk about it, but i also see players point, so far what you been doing is white knighting doing nothing else but ignore what so many ppl is saying, and defending enmasse like if they were your 3 years old sons, do you think you gonna get promoted to gm or something, or that you will earn a dragon? stop trying to ignore the ideas of the community and look forward to what the gamemasters have to say, if they opened the thread it's because they are willing to at least hear what we have to say, stop trying to make ppl look like they are hackers or trying to ruin the game, it's awful to see every single time the same kind of post, and because of these posts it's why we have problems on the forums and nobody can speak freely. Nobody getting angry at you or blaming you for livling close or far to the server, ppl is just discussing their problems...
  • JohngaloriaJohngaloria ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    What's the point of a discussion thread if @Spacecats barely replies to the comments?
  • AryixAryix ✭✭✭
    The only valid arguments related to ping issues on an NA server-based game are those from people that are native to NA. Everyone out of this comfort zone is aware beforehand that they will suffer ping issues. It is not a valid excuse to say "I don't live in the US, please take consideration." simply because you are consuming a product/using a service that does not cater to you. That does not give anyone any reason to break an agreement they made when they signed up to use said service. "It's leveling the playing field," is a lie tho, because not even those that live on the US play at 0 ms. You're not leveling the playing field, you are just getting an advantage for yourself because you are butthurt that other players that CASUALLY live closer to the server and pay more for their internet speed have a better ping than you do. The players were just fine before regardless of the issues.

    If you don't like the lag and delay and issues on NA Tera, play on a region closer to your country, I assure you that you will get better ping without the need of 3rd party add-ons. NA Tera isn't the only server in the world. You can even play KTera, they have talents and more goodies afaik, and they get content first hand.

    Grow up and stop feeling entitled to being pardoned for a ToS infringement just because you invested time, effort, and money. No one told you to do that, and you were aware you might get banned for it.
  • @Aryix Do you even know what ping tax is? These things are flaws within the Tera code so your whole argument is invalid
  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    ZeRoHouR95 wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    .
    Ceciella wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    Tewii wrote: »
    Spacecats wrote: »
    On the 3rd party program side of things, there are players using programs that flip things around so that they're actually doing way more DPS than anyone else who isn't using a 3rd party program.

    It has to be said that you're incorrect regarding this. The program I'm sure you know I'm speaking of doesn't alter damage values nor critrates, stats, etc etc...
    All it does is remove the delay inbetween the individual actions of the skill firing off for the client. Realistically, it brings those skills and those skills alone to work closer to how they should instead of being inherently broken.

    I did not know you were a developer from Bluehole, please do tell us why the delay was not removed in Tera instead of using a 3rd party tool?

    Or may be the delay was intentionally added to not overload the servers!

    I'm pretty sure EME and BHS are big boys who don't need you defending them, especially when your speculation is even less helpful than the original post. It's clear you're uneducated on the specifics of what you're taking about but don't let me stop you from shitting up every single thread involved while people just want honest straightforward answers about .ini tweaks, optimization and other things that are not the third party tools.

    Maybe educate people on the specifics instead of dismissing and insulting them ¬.¬?


    Im not a person who likes to pick side, i see the side from eme, and i can understand why they can not act on certain subjects, or talk about it, but i also see players point, so far what you been doing is white knighting doing nothing else but ignore what so many ppl is saying, and defending enmasse like if they were your 3 years old sons, do you think you gonna get promoted to gm or something, or that you will earn a dragon? stop trying to ignore the ideas of the community and look forward to what the gamemasters have to say, if they opened the thread it's because they are willing to at least hear what we have to say, stop trying to make ppl look like they are hackers or trying to ruin the game, it's awful to see every single time the same kind of post, and because of these posts it's why we have problems on the forums and nobody can speak freely. Nobody getting angry at you or blaming you for livling close or far to the server, ppl is just discussing their problems...

    I'm not trying to defend anyone and I don't expect to gain anything from En Masse by posting.

    But its a bit silly to attempt to change skills because someone somehow thinks a skill should work.
  • Aryix wrote: »
    The only valid arguments related to ping issues on an NA server-based game are those from people that are native to NA. Everyone out of this comfort zone is aware beforehand that they will suffer ping issues. It is not a valid excuse to say "I don't live in the US, please take consideration." simply because you are consuming a product/using a service that does not cater to you. That does not give anyone any reason to break an agreement they made when they signed up to use said service. "It's leveling the playing field," is a lie tho, because not even those that live on the US play at 0 ms. You're not leveling the playing field, you are just getting an advantage for yourself because you are butthurt that other players that CASUALLY live closer to the server and pay more for their internet speed have a better ping than you do. The players were just fine before regardless of the issues.

    If you don't like the lag and delay and issues on NA Tera, play on a region closer to your country, I assure you that you will get better ping without the need of 3rd party add-ons. NA Tera isn't the only server in the world. You can even play KTera, they have talents and more goodies afaik, and they get content first hand.

    Grow up and stop feeling entitled to being pardoned for a ToS infringement just because you invested time, effort, and money. No one told you to do that, and you were aware you might get banned for it.

    That's understandable for those who live on europe that literally have servers for them, but according to what you say ppl from south america for example should just deal with it, aka if you are some1 who has low ping, and you "casually" beat them, we will see you tbaging them and calling them "brs" when they are not even "brs" they prolly just have high ping, call it europe, argentina, chile, germany, w/e u wanna call it, i find ur comment very racist "ignoring" those who have ping issues, even more when we are so far away from those old topics... Pretty neat point there lol
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