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The 3rd Party Thread

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Comments

  • I hate the dps meter, and I'm happy it's going away.
  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    manyhi wrote: »
    @Yamazuki

    Wow, I'm glad you're such an ethical Tera player. Thanks for all your frequent requests that have continued to change nothing! I'm sure BHS spends a lot of time fixing exploits (nope, none of the recent exploits have been fixed, tera rewards bug still there, Lachelith bug still there, gate glitches in various places still possible, etc.) Oh and while we're at it, FWC still unequalized, still no leaderboards, CS is back to 2-man q, I'm glad things are being accomplished!

    Trust me, all the frequent requests that have continued to change nothing is not the fault of Player Council but because En Masse and Bluehole have failed to implement.
  • Yamazuki wrote: »
    manyhi wrote: »
    @Yamazuki

    Wow, I'm glad you're such an ethical Tera player. Thanks for all your frequent requests that have continued to change nothing! I'm sure BHS spends a lot of time fixing exploits (nope, none of the recent exploits have been fixed, tera rewards bug still there, Lachelith bug still there, gate glitches in various places still possible, etc.) Oh and while we're at it, FWC still unequalized, still no leaderboards, CS is back to 2-man q, I'm glad things are being accomplished!

    Yes, BHS is extremely slow at changing things, multiple years to even do a thing about fps, and you somehow think intentionally breaking the game to force BHS to fix their exploits is going to mysteriously make things better? All they've done is delay what little BHS is even capable of doing, in the end normal players lose and these people profit, they laugh about all of this openly on Discord. They definitely are making Tera great again!
    If you think EME doesn't deserve to be laughed at for how the situation is handled, we need a term that goes above white knight to describe you. The players are still frustrated and EME is still refusing to communicate or get informed.

    In fact, even player council members like you don't seem to care that you're very ignorant about the specifics of this entire issue. Spend your time getting informed about what the software actually does before you write on the forums please.
  • DelusoDeluso ✭✭✭✭
    manyhi wrote: »
    I can give you the answer. It's no for pretty much everything. No communication between EME and developers. No actual fixes by BHS. No real clarification besides if you're caught, you're banned.

    Yes I know. I'm just trying to state something there.
    EME seems doesn't even trying to contacting developers and apparently they actually don't even know how to detect 3rd party program except "patiently" waiting for report who's using 3rd party program. Most bugs are still there, exploits are still running and the server is still lagging. Optimization? Who am I to say about it.
  • SomentineSomentine ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    KnightFalz wrote: »

    Absolutely nothing Noesis said in the quotes you provided allows for the use of 3rd party tools. In fact, he has specifically stated that no 3rd party tools are allowed in a very recent post that isn't even slightly difficult to find.

    Since Tera has no inherent DPS meter any such tool automatically falls in the category of 3rd, and thus are not allowed.

    What you want to read into things doesn't jive with what Noesis has outright said.

    What a GM says doesn't override what Noesis says.

    You are simply wrong.

    1. This program has existed in the past.
    2. The exact same ToS rule was in place at the time but the program was allowed under conditions.
    3. This sets the precedent, and therefore the fact, that things aren't absolutes; more specifically, like how every single rule or law in life works.
    4. Ignoring facts and proceeding to post mindless absolutes that are directly contradicted by the past is something something.
    5. Drawing your 'facts' from someone who is factual wrong is, well, wrong.
    6. Edit: Coming into a thread, created by EME to discuss the issues, and attempting to shut down all discussion with a mindless post is also something something.




  • pomchapomcha
    edited April 2017
    Here is what I see. The community seems divided in 3 parties, the people who vouch for "this program", the people who are strongly opposed to "cheating" and the people who just don't care and are in it just for the memes.

    I see only one solution to this, the modders and EME get together and talk in a civil manner and work together. By having "that program" naturally incorporated into the game coding, will make all 3 parties happy as people will get their "ping balance", the other party will not technically be "cheating" as it is part of the game, and the third will continue to just sit there and continue to not care and meme.

    But didn't EME already try to contact the modders?
    What actually happened is EME sent a Player Council member to Dev M and said "Hey, Spacecats wants to talk to you". His response was, "I am going to get banned anyway" and declined. I believe both parties are wrong here because EME should have approached Dev M directly as he may have interpreted it as a "Nigerian Princess". Also Dev M should have also not mentioned "getting banned anyway" and perhaps even suggested for EME to contact him directly to talk.

    What about the financial return for EME/BHS?
    Without a doubt, there is a time and financial investment into incorporating skill prediction naturally into the game. The CEOs and shareholders will be wanting a return. Lets use the Net Promoter Score (NPS) system here. When customers are happy, they become promoters of a business. Promoters will tell their friends and family how good their experience was, and bring more business in. In a similar fashion, customers who had a bad experience will become detractors and will actively speak out against the company, resulting in loss of potential sales. Incorporating skill prediction into the game will be win-win for every customer because they will become a promoter, resulting in a higher overall NPS score for EME/BHS.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter

    But EME are only the publisher and cant do anything?
    While this is partially true, I do truly believe that EME has the power to voice our concerns to BHS and fight for us, not against us. This wont be easy, nobody every said it will be, but we need to rise to the challenge, and have the determination to succeed. If we approach this with a negative mindset, nothing will ever change.

    What needs to be done?
    I strongly believe that the biggest thing that is missing is the drive to succeed. Right now it seems like 2 grown adults banging their heads against each other, nothing gets achieved and both walk away with headaches. We need to put our differences behind us, and work together. We are a very small community in contrast to the big hitters like Blizzard. However when our community is united and working together with our publishers, developers and modders alike, we can achieve anything.
  • pomcha wrote: »

    But didn't EME already try to contact the modders?
    What actually happened is EME sent a Player Council member to Dev M and said "Hey, Spacecats wants to talk to you". His response was, "I am going to get banned anyway" and declined. I believe both parties are wrong here because EME should have approached Dev M directly as he may have interpreted it as a "Nigerian Princess". Also Dev M should have also not mentioned "getting banned anyway" and perhaps even suggested for EME to contact him directly to talk.

    A random person contacted one of them through PM and the developer obviously didn't trust them because it wasn't anyone from EME. If EME wanted to contact them, they could have done it through the forums or contacting them in-game with an EME staff account.
  • Ginjitsu wrote: »
    manyhi wrote: »
    @Yamazuki

    Wow, I'm glad you're such an ethical Tera player. Thanks for all your frequent requests that have continued to change nothing! I'm sure BHS spends a lot of time fixing exploits (nope, none of the recent exploits have been fixed, tera rewards bug still there, Lachelith bug still there, gate glitches in various places still possible, etc.) Oh and while we're at it, FWC still unequalized, still no leaderboards, CS is back to 2-man q, I'm glad things are being accomplished!

    Trust me, all the frequent requests that have continued to change nothing is not the fault of Player Council but because En Masse and Bluehole have failed to implement.

    And that is why players have been so upset. Our pleads for essential QoL changes to this game fall on deaf ears.
  • canikizu wrote: »

    So by your explanation, it doesn't matter if the particular tool is useful/harmless/big quality of life improvement even in your eyes, if EME condemns and call it cheat, you'll call it cheat too?

    There's a reason why we have clause 13 in almost all of ToS of games out there:

    " En Masse reserves the right, at its sole and absolute discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete any of the terms and conditions of this Terms of Service at any time, including without limitation access policies, the availability of any feature of TERA, hours of availability, content, data, software or equipment needed to access TERA, effective with or without prior notice"

    It enables for the game developers/publishers to adjust their ToS as they please. And this exactly why people are trying to make a case: is to let EME/BHS know and consider and legitimatize/implement the usage of the tool. And this is also why people are so frustrated when EME kept banning people talking about it, and whiteknights keep backtalk and don't provide anything useful to push the conversation forward. It's not like things like this didn't happen before. Things like DPS meter in Blade and Soul was huge demand and people were using 3rd party meter, and the developer ended up implement the meter ingame.

    No, I'm saying that EME is the one that gets to determine what 3rd party programs Tera players get to use. They have decided that players get to use none of them.

    The reason that clause exists is to provide EME to change the ToS as they see fit. As you say, they could amend the ToS to allow for the use of 3rd party tools. They obviously won't be doing that, as it would be in direct contradiction with their policy on the use of 3rd party tools.

    Players can make the case for that change all they like, as a forum thread has been provided for that. However, it would be a mistake to assume the provision of this thread in any way suggests EME is open to changing their policy.

    Rather, it is at least as likely it was provided as an open valve that would allow players to blow off steam in a contained environment in the hope it would eventually result in less pressure in the pipes over time, effectively making the issue fade away through attrition.
  • AEFH9EGJMAAEFH9EGJMA ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    KnightFalz wrote: »
    canikizu wrote: »

    So by your explanation, it doesn't matter if the particular tool is useful/harmless/big quality of life improvement even in your eyes, if EME condemns and call it cheat, you'll call it cheat too?

    There's a reason why we have clause 13 in almost all of ToS of games out there:

    " En Masse reserves the right, at its sole and absolute discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete any of the terms and conditions of this Terms of Service at any time, including without limitation access policies, the availability of any feature of TERA, hours of availability, content, data, software or equipment needed to access TERA, effective with or without prior notice"

    It enables for the game developers/publishers to adjust their ToS as they please. And this exactly why people are trying to make a case: is to let EME/BHS know and consider and legitimatize/implement the usage of the tool. And this is also why people are so frustrated when EME kept banning people talking about it, and whiteknights keep backtalk and don't provide anything useful to push the conversation forward. It's not like things like this didn't happen before. Things like DPS meter in Blade and Soul was huge demand and people were using 3rd party meter, and the developer ended up implement the meter ingame.

    No, I'm saying that EME is the one that gets to determine what 3rd party programs Tera players get to use. They have decided that players get to use none of them.

    The reason that clause exists is to provide EME to change the ToS as they see fit. As you say, they could amend the ToS to allow for the use of 3rd party tools. They obviously won't be doing that, as it would be in direct contradiction with their policy on the use of 3rd party tools.

    Players can make the case for that change all they like, as a forum thread has been provided for that. However, it would be a mistake to assume the provision of this thread in any way suggests EME is open to changing their policy.

    Rather, it is at least as likely it was provided as an open valve that would allow players to blow off steam in a contained environment in the hope it would eventually result in less pressure in the pipes over time, effectively making the issue fade away through attrition.
    To give you an analogy of what's happening so you can orientate yourself to the actual discussion instead of being so confused:

    1. EME decides to use a chainsaw to shave off a tiny speck of dye on their precious $1000 suit.
    2. Players say no that's stupid, you'll ruin everything, how about take it to dry cleaners who know what to do about it.
    3. Whiteknights say but it's clearly in the company policy that all spills are to be fixed with chainsaws.
    4. EME goes ahead and chainsaws the poor suit.

  • KarmaTheAlligatorKarmaTheAlligator ✭✭✭✭✭
    Somentine wrote: »
    @KnightFalz

    Hey bro, DPS metre was a third party program that was given the okay under some stipulations. Maybe you should think before you mindlessly post.

    Except, not anymore. Like someone said earlier, things change.
  • Somentine wrote: »
    KnightFalz wrote: »

    Absolutely nothing Noesis said in the quotes you provided allows for the use of 3rd party tools. In fact, he has specifically stated that no 3rd party tools are allowed in a very recent post that isn't even slightly difficult to find.

    Since Tera has no inherent DPS meter any such tool automatically falls in the category of 3rd, and thus are not allowed.

    What you want to read into things doesn't jive with what Noesis has outright said.

    What a GM says doesn't override what Noesis says.

    You are simply wrong.

    1. This program has existed in the past.
    2. The exact same ToS rule was in place at the time but the program was allowed under conditions.
    3. This sets the precedent, and therefore the fact, that things aren't absolutes; more specifically, like how every single rule or law in life works.
    4. Ignoring facts and proceeding to post mindless absolutes that are directly contradicted by the past is something something.
    5. Drawing your 'facts' from someone who is factual wrong is, well, wrong.
    6. Edit: Coming into a thread, created by EME to discuss the issues, and attempting to shut down all discussion with a mindless post is also something something.




    The only constant is change.

    That a ToS violation may not have been avidly pursued in the past does not mean it will always be so.

    This isn't a court of law. Precedent has no binding influence here.

    Failing to acquaint yourself with the facts as they are now is your problem, not mine.

    I made no attempt to shut down discussion in the thread. That I continue to participate in the discussion is ample evidence to the contrary of your assertion.
  • edited April 2017
    Hi, are you aware that constant and change are antonyms? If something is constant, it's not changing.
  • KarmaTheAlligatorKarmaTheAlligator ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    ctmany wrote: »
    Hey, are you aware that constant and change are contradictory? It's not a constant if something is changing.

    The change itself is the constant. Nothing contradictory about it.
  • CezzareCezzare ✭✭✭
    Adding on the part of having EME incorporate skill prediction into the game: that would be nice, but if you look at the recent problem with RMNM/HM's exploit to skip the 1st boss, they had to ask BHS to solve the issue; in one of the threads about players having their bank tabs dissappearing the staff said they were looking into the issue along with BHS what I interprete from those and other statements before is that most changes to the game code need to be approved or even done by BHS' and then merged into a build or patch, which would be then sent to EME to apply. I think since the "P2W" dragon mounts fiasco it was very clear EME really hasn't much freedom anymore.

    We have several patches ahead, I think it's safe to say many of those are already being localized and tested by the NA team, and if out of nowhere someone decides they want to add something like skill prediction and have it available immediately, then probably all the patches already being tested would be held and even scrapped, which would be a setback for both companies' bussiness schedule, including the console release. That means losing time and effort and money they've already invested. So no, I don't think we'll see the EME staff and BHS saying they'll add those things right away or allow the use of the 3rd party software we're talking about.

    In my opinion, perhaps the discussion should be about how to actively encourage EME to have BHS give an statement about the issues that caused this whole chaos: latency, skill prediction and graphical performance. Do it any way you want: send inquires to BHS directly, reach out for big game news media, "vote with your wallets" or anything you want, but accept once for all that they won't allow you to use injectors and DPS meters, even if they really can't detect you're using them, and if you insist on breaking the ToS (which they haven't really enforced until now) then be aware they will ban you, whether you accidentally let them know what you're doing or if you get reported by someone else.
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