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Un-equalized gear in FWC

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Comments

  • ElinerdElinerd ✭✭
    edited May 2017
    ElinLove wrote: »
    I can assure you 90% of the players who have Windjammer Title want unequalized FWC back.
    If you have some actual evidence then that's cool but I dunno man I know of dozens of Windjammers who quit years ago because of the bad gear progression and even more who left because of class imbalance. But either way I've outlined most of what would be wrong with a modern un-EQ FWC so I'd rather you refute the points I brought up in other posts than just saying your opinion. I came here to say why removing EQ FWC would be a terrible idea so people that may want it might reconsider.

    I'm all for a updated EQ gear and I'd absolutely love un-EQ IF we got a few new bundles of PVP gear but since this will never happen, I'll cntinue to argue that removing EQ would ruin FWC once again.
  • W7GNYAP55AW7GNYAP55A ✭✭✭
    edited May 2017
    Tewii wrote: »
    W7GNYAP55A wrote: »
    Lets measure up the cost and time it takes to gear up properly for an un-equalized FWC.
    T4 Etchings x2 = 200k
    T3 Etchings x2 = 120k
    Spellbinds, Semi-Enigmatic, Master Enigmatic, Feedstocks, Alkahest = 200k minimal to get +12 on all gear
    Mastering +12 to +15 ==> Lets not even go there, but I'll give it a total of 500k for all gears.
    Time it takes to get a VM set ==> I'll give it a month if doing it the hard way, no money spent, and you don't play 24/7. (1 weapon)

    Mannnn, just so I can stay relevant and win those reward prizes more, I have to invest in 1,200,000 million in-game currency. Tough luck casual gamers, new comers, and anyone who wants to use battleground as a source of income! You won't be able to use FWC (which has the best rewards) because it has now been un-equalized and only the top tier guilds with all +15 will probably run sack that entire battleground 24/7. And lets not forget, a big blow to PvP content players only (like myself) who avoids PvE content because it's utterly boring and time consuming.

    Lets look at Civil Unrest, look at how that's performing... Oh wait, it's run sacked by top +15 tier guilds who probably run those injector also.

    If you're paying 100k per T4 etching you're getting ripped off. Most people sell them in-guild for about 30k.
    If you're paying 60k per T3... look at the example above.

    If you're enchanting conflate or midtier, which is perfectly fine, it won't cost as high as 200k. And to tell me that it's difficult to get midtier and enchant it is dumb. It's a mixed PvPvE game. Even if you have no gear, you still get equalized gear. I personally have a Reaper in full Slaughter, with Dyads equipped purely because I know I'll still be able to pull massive weight by means of my own skill, even if it becomes unequalized, I'll still have my Conflict Weapon with 22k attack power which rivals Behemoth.

    Also your entire point is kind of silly, you want to put no effort into getting the highest form of rewards from a certain type of content? That isn't exactly what happens in literally every other MMO out there. If you want the best rewards, you invest and gear yourself in able to do so. Pick up the slack and you'll get rewarded.
    I also like the random injector callout. To me it just seems like you're trying to blame something on losses - gear, third party programs and all. Might be a l2p issue.

    No buddy. You're missing the point here. I was very generous on how much it actually cost to gear to +15 and time consuming.

    The whole point is battleground is now made to the enjoyment of those who love PvP, but not necessarily PvE. It's for those who rather PvP than PvE (like myself.) Adding un-equalized gear, you're literally saying what's the point of making it PvP focused if you're going to force everyone to play PvE to get the gear in the first place? Hello? I think you're missing the point here buddy.

    This idea that, "We don't do anything to get rewards," When was this? Last time I checked, all of us PvP'ers have been playing PvP 30 minute rounds to get a reward box, just as much as you PvE's play dungeons 30 minutes to get your loot. What's the difference here? Some of us enjoy PvP content over PvE. You don't see them forcing you PvEers to play PvP to get your PvE gear do you? So why force us PvP to do PvE content when WE DON'T WANT TOO? How do you like it if EME forced you to play FWC for 2 months, spend 1,200,000 million on conflate gear that you probably won't use anyways?

    And for your information, team work, strategy, learning skill rotations, having the correct combos are all working towards how we can win in PvP. And it's a reason why we win battleground to begin with. This idea that, "We don't want to do anything to get free stuff," Uh... No. I took my time to learn all rotations, my time to learn the in's and out's of PvP, learning strategies in each battleground so I can win with my team. If you add un-equalized gear all of that gets thrown into the trash because it's all about +15 gear now. You have no idea how or what I am saying because you don't EXCLUSIVELY play battlegrounds like I do. It's all I do on Tera, don't take it away from people like me who find it rewarding and worked for it.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Elinerd wrote: »
    ElinLove wrote: »
    I can assure you 90% of the players who have Windjammer Title want unequalized FWC back.
    If you have some actual evidence then that's cool but I dunno man I know of dozens of Windjammers who quit years ago because of the [filtered] gear progression and even more who left because of class imbalance. But either way I've outlined most of what would be wrong with a modern un-EQ FWC so I'd rather you refute the points I brought up in other posts than just saying your opinion. I came here to say why removing EQ FWC would be a terrible idea so people that may want it might reconsider.

    I'm all for a updated EQ gear and I'd absolutely love un-EQ IF we got a few new bundles of PVP gear but since this will never happen, I'll cntinue to argue that removing EQ would ruin FWC once again.

    *I didn't say that hehe the quote got messed

    Back in topic: I also think it should just get better balance in the EQ gear and fix the issue with EQ instead of going the lazy route and removing it. I can imagine that the gear difference previous to +15 wasn't such a gigantic valley like after +15. In the beginning of the +15 days it also was less of a problem because it was rare. You could see a handful of Renagade players around there and oooh so awesome, most who were +15 were Generation (PVE set), and these +15 in general weren't common. When it started to get more common, it did become horrible for who wasn't. It was a stupid massacre of masses of players by the +15 guys. I don't know if they got nerfed later on to counter that, but if you nowadays were to make it full non-EQ, for anyone trying it 1st time it's entirely discouraging. Sure they can get that +15 easier than before, but until then they'll just be floormats? There's only so far anyone can bear with this before quitting for good the BG. It would end up as an Elite vs Elite gear battle, and I would predict it would take ages to pop again.
  • ElinerdElinerd ✭✭
    edited May 2017
    ElinLove wrote: »
    Elinerd wrote: »
    ElinLove wrote: »
    I can assure you 90% of the players who have Windjammer Title want unequalized FWC back.
    If you have some actual evidence then that's cool but I dunno man I know of dozens of Windjammers who quit years ago because of the [filtered] gear progression and even more who left because of class imbalance. But either way I've outlined most of what would be wrong with a modern un-EQ FWC so I'd rather you refute the points I brought up in other posts than just saying your opinion. I came here to say why removing EQ FWC would be a terrible idea so people that may want it might reconsider.

    I'm all for a updated EQ gear and I'd absolutely love un-EQ IF we got a few new bundles of PVP gear but since this will never happen, I'll cntinue to argue that removing EQ would ruin FWC once again.

    *I didn't say that hehe the quote got messed

    Back in topic: I also think it should just get better balance in the EQ gear and fix the issue with EQ instead of going the lazy route and removing it. I can imagine that the gear difference previous to +15 wasn't such a gigantic valley like after +15. In the beginning of the +15 days it also was less of a problem because it was rare. You could see a handful of Renagade players around there and oooh so awesome, most who were +15 were Generation (PVE set), and these +15 in general weren't common. When it started to get more common, it did become horrible for who wasn't. It was a stupid massacre of masses of players by the +15 guys. I don't know if they got nerfed later on to counter that, but if you nowadays were to make it full non-EQ, for anyone trying it 1st time it's entirely discouraging. Sure they can get that +15 easier than before, but until then they'll just be floormats? There's only so far anyone can bear with this before quitting for good the BG. It would end up as an Elite vs Elite gear battle, and I would predict it would take ages to pop again.
    I personally stopped doing EQ FWC when the BG rules went full tilt in favor of geared players, removing all those old cap and defend road fighting strategies, and that was around when they implemented etchings. It was a blatant push towards encouraging swipes and etchings was a huge blow against balanced gear progression since a lot of people don't even bother with the good ones. It wasn't even the +15 that got to me but that's still notable of course. We even have circlets now, further increasing the gap between full Idoneal new player and vm9 +20 undies gold circlet hero. Circlets alone took a fair amount of grinding if you missed that last Kyra's event, new people don't stand a chance.

    I mean it's bad enough having baddies on your team with all of our gear being equal. How in the world would it be fun when Captain Burrito and his crew are completely and utterly useless in every regard? Makes no sense that anyone would want that. It's easy enough to stomp people with this [filtered] EQ gear.

    Also I'd like to put more emphasis on the actual rules of FWC being poorly balanced for non-EQ. It's not like the gear gap wasn't huge back in VM1 days but the rules still made it possible for shitters to win if they played the game well. Delay and distraction tactics and capping pyres actually meant something back then which was great fun for mostly road fighting players like me. It's a dead art! Un-EQ Zergwind Canyon simply isn't viable for people who are slow to or are uninterested in getting top tier gear. And I think player numbers would plummet if it was made a reality.
  • ElinerdElinerd ✭✭
    edited May 2017
    eme deleted my post again. Why do the forums do that when I just want to edit a typo?
    Here it is.
    https://justpaste.it/16jo6
  • Elinerd wrote: »
    eme deleted my post again. Why do the forums do that when I just want to edit a typo?
    Here it is.
    https://justpaste.it/16jo6

    It's the auto-moderation feature of this forum software, and it triggers if someone edits their posts too much for some stupid reason.
  • xoBarbxoBarb ✭✭✭
    Update the EQ gear, get someone from PC who actually pvps to a relevant extent to help you with the stats on it

    !!!!
  • StrawberrypantsStrawberrypants ✭✭✭
    edited May 2017
    One problem with returning to un-EQ gear is that they added the effects of various charms and such into the EQ gear (which is why everyone has reflect damage.) I guess you could roll that effect into the BG noctenium, and remove it from the gear.

    Either way, with no new relatively easily-obtainable PVP set like Conflate being added, balancing EQ gear would be the next best thing. All that would need to be done is to find out the average PVP gear meta per class and change the EQ gear's stats to match. They might make some small adjustments based on which classes are high, mid and low tier (and who is supposed to be a tank) in BGs.

    if we do return to un-EQ BGs, another option would be to allow people to check a box and get the EQ gear in the BG regardless of item level. And it'd be made to be very close to the average high-tier but not quite as strong.
  • KoikoiKoikoi ✭✭✭
    Tewii wrote: »
    FWC is the highest rewarding battleground this patch, and thus should reward those who put effort into securing better chances for wins.
    Nobody is going to disagree with that, arguing against that is like saying 'REEEEEE VSHM GIVES THE MOST PVE MATS AND BEST VANGUARD ITS ONLY FOR +15 ELITISTS.'

    Also just to correct you, healers cannot tank 15 people on them at once. That is a gross overstatement and is entirely false. If a group of people are struggling to kill a healer, perhaps considering using your stuns and staggers.
    But in Equalized gear, the most frustrating thing in the world is for a single flanker to push the starting mid's back line and shred me because their mobility and offense outweighs my avoidance and defence, not -slightly-, but by such a monumental disparity that my health gets chunked off completely within a single stun combo. ...and then the team that doesn't peel or prevent flankers screech in raid chat that I'm not healing them.

    Arguing that Gridiron should be the unequalized BG is also moot - heals are halved in there and with the supposed 'even more burst damage because +15!!!' it'll drive healers away even more, negating one of two PvP roles (if we consider the two roles DPS, and Healing) from unequalized play.

    Now here's the problem.
    The Equalized weapons have insane attack modifiers compared to the defenses of the equalized gear, and better stats offensively when compared to the defensive stats of the armor.

    A +15 Awakened Dragonsroar has ~21k attack modifier and 25 PvP attack.
    A Conflict Cannon has 21.5k attack modifier and 40 PvP attack.

    A +15 Awakened Blightail Robe has 7.7k defense modifier.
    A Conflict Robe has 7.3k defense modifier.

    Based on the 15 extra PvP attack mod alone the gunner is going to be doing a lot more damage than +15 vs +15. Factor in the power and decent offensive stats on gloves etc, and the fact that the defensive gear has -no PvP defense whatsoever- you can quickly see that unequalized gear is actually far worse to play against than at least semi decent gear. Pre-RMHM patch, I know some people that were intentionally wearing lower tier gear just to get that sweet 22k attack mod and 40 PvP attack.

    Even mid tier, properly rolled, holds up well enough against +15 gear, certainly better than EQvEQ and last patch, Conflate was valuable in PvP as a near-BiS (and some pieces were BiS, even considering behemoth) and is perhaps the cheapest PvP gear we've had.... ever.

    There really is no excuse, and the argument that equalized is less frustrating and imbalanced than +15 is for those who would be sitting in the provided conflict gear or using incorrect rolls anyway.
    The argument is literally People who put no effort in vs People who do put effort in. The sensible thing is to reward those who actually put effort into reaping the rewards.

    Make FWC rewarding to play again, rely on at least a vague sense of skill instead of just oneshots, and incentivize people to gear for the content they are actually playing.

    PvP died when everything became equalized. Fix it and perhaps 2/3rds of my friendslist that no longer queues might bother again.

    This guy right here gets it.

    Whoever is AGAINST unequalized battlegrounds, read this post over and over until it finally clicks.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Koikoi wrote: »
    Tewii wrote: »
    FWC is the highest rewarding battleground this patch, and thus should reward those who put effort into securing better chances for wins.
    Nobody is going to disagree with that, arguing against that is like saying 'REEEEEE VSHM GIVES THE MOST PVE MATS AND BEST VANGUARD ITS ONLY FOR +15 ELITISTS.'

    Also just to correct you, healers cannot tank 15 people on them at once. That is a gross overstatement and is entirely false. If a group of people are struggling to kill a healer, perhaps considering using your stuns and staggers.
    But in Equalized gear, the most frustrating thing in the world is for a single flanker to push the starting mid's back line and shred me because their mobility and offense outweighs my avoidance and defence, not -slightly-, but by such a monumental disparity that my health gets chunked off completely within a single stun combo. ...and then the team that doesn't peel or prevent flankers screech in raid chat that I'm not healing them.

    Arguing that Gridiron should be the unequalized BG is also moot - heals are halved in there and with the supposed 'even more burst damage because +15!!!' it'll drive healers away even more, negating one of two PvP roles (if we consider the two roles DPS, and Healing) from unequalized play.

    Now here's the problem.
    The Equalized weapons have insane attack modifiers compared to the defenses of the equalized gear, and better stats offensively when compared to the defensive stats of the armor.

    A +15 Awakened Dragonsroar has ~21k attack modifier and 25 PvP attack.
    A Conflict Cannon has 21.5k attack modifier and 40 PvP attack.

    A +15 Awakened Blightail Robe has 7.7k defense modifier.
    A Conflict Robe has 7.3k defense modifier.

    Based on the 15 extra PvP attack mod alone the gunner is going to be doing a lot more damage than +15 vs +15. Factor in the power and decent offensive stats on gloves etc, and the fact that the defensive gear has -no PvP defense whatsoever- you can quickly see that unequalized gear is actually far worse to play against than at least semi decent gear. Pre-RMHM patch, I know some people that were intentionally wearing lower tier gear just to get that sweet 22k attack mod and 40 PvP attack.

    Even mid tier, properly rolled, holds up well enough against +15 gear, certainly better than EQvEQ and last patch, Conflate was valuable in PvP as a near-BiS (and some pieces were BiS, even considering behemoth) and is perhaps the cheapest PvP gear we've had.... ever.

    There really is no excuse, and the argument that equalized is less frustrating and imbalanced than +15 is for those who would be sitting in the provided conflict gear or using incorrect rolls anyway.
    The argument is literally People who put no effort in vs People who do put effort in. The sensible thing is to reward those who actually put effort into reaping the rewards.

    Make FWC rewarding to play again, rely on at least a vague sense of skill instead of just oneshots, and incentivize people to gear for the content they are actually playing.

    PvP died when everything became equalized. Fix it and perhaps 2/3rds of my friendslist that no longer queues might bother again.

    This guy right here gets it.

    Whoever is AGAINST unequalized battlegrounds, read this post over and over until it finally clicks.

    All that post said back up the "Unequalized is Gear > Skills" and "Equalized is Skills > Gear".

    You should reread it to see how he point about stats, stats that get better throught gear tier and etchings.

    Unequalized battleground is by far less fair than equalized BGs as there you have more variables to the equation as perfect rolls and tier on jewellery as Brooches, Rings, Earrings, Necklaces, Circlets/Dyadems, perfect rolls for gear, tier gear, tier etchings,.

    Obviously this will make at this point someone who want to "be on equal ground" on BGs to farm BiS on almost everything. You are killing the skill factor with raw stats mean while on Equalized BGs things only matter are Crystals and Skills.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Koikoi wrote: »
    Tewii wrote: »
    FWC is the highest rewarding battleground this patch, and thus should reward those who put effort into securing better chances for wins.
    Nobody is going to disagree with that, arguing against that is like saying 'REEEEEE VSHM GIVES THE MOST PVE MATS AND BEST VANGUARD ITS ONLY FOR +15 ELITISTS.'

    Also just to correct you, healers cannot tank 15 people on them at once. That is a gross overstatement and is entirely false. If a group of people are struggling to kill a healer, perhaps considering using your stuns and staggers.
    But in Equalized gear, the most frustrating thing in the world is for a single flanker to push the starting mid's back line and shred me because their mobility and offense outweighs my avoidance and defence, not -slightly-, but by such a monumental disparity that my health gets chunked off completely within a single stun combo. ...and then the team that doesn't peel or prevent flankers screech in raid chat that I'm not healing them.

    Arguing that Gridiron should be the unequalized BG is also moot - heals are halved in there and with the supposed 'even more burst damage because +15!!!' it'll drive healers away even more, negating one of two PvP roles (if we consider the two roles DPS, and Healing) from unequalized play.

    Now here's the problem.
    The Equalized weapons have insane attack modifiers compared to the defenses of the equalized gear, and better stats offensively when compared to the defensive stats of the armor.

    A +15 Awakened Dragonsroar has ~21k attack modifier and 25 PvP attack.
    A Conflict Cannon has 21.5k attack modifier and 40 PvP attack.

    A +15 Awakened Blightail Robe has 7.7k defense modifier.
    A Conflict Robe has 7.3k defense modifier.

    Based on the 15 extra PvP attack mod alone the gunner is going to be doing a lot more damage than +15 vs +15. Factor in the power and decent offensive stats on gloves etc, and the fact that the defensive gear has -no PvP defense whatsoever- you can quickly see that unequalized gear is actually far worse to play against than at least semi decent gear. Pre-RMHM patch, I know some people that were intentionally wearing lower tier gear just to get that sweet 22k attack mod and 40 PvP attack.

    Even mid tier, properly rolled, holds up well enough against +15 gear, certainly better than EQvEQ and last patch, Conflate was valuable in PvP as a near-BiS (and some pieces were BiS, even considering behemoth) and is perhaps the cheapest PvP gear we've had.... ever.

    There really is no excuse, and the argument that equalized is less frustrating and imbalanced than +15 is for those who would be sitting in the provided conflict gear or using incorrect rolls anyway.
    The argument is literally People who put no effort in vs People who do put effort in. The sensible thing is to reward those who actually put effort into reaping the rewards.

    Make FWC rewarding to play again, rely on at least a vague sense of skill instead of just oneshots, and incentivize people to gear for the content they are actually playing.

    PvP died when everything became equalized. Fix it and perhaps 2/3rds of my friendslist that no longer queues might bother again.

    This guy right here gets it.

    Whoever is AGAINST unequalized battlegrounds, read this post over and over until it finally clicks.

    So... "Change your mind, your opinion is just wrong!" ??

    I stand with my opinion, it's OK with thinking differently no matter how much you are against others opinions. I still think we should equalize the gear BETTER, make it actually equal, to become a skill test contest instead of rolling the best class at that content. If you're bad at PVP to the point of not knowing that you don't use hardies at PVP, then you'll die on perfectly equal gear anyway. But you CAN learn the PVP easier than if you were just a frustrated floormat until you get carried enough to get your PVP gear and then smash a keyboard blindly against the ones that are now were you were when you started.
    And I think this is the focus that mEME/BHS should take on it as a bigger part: allowing people to start up and "git gud" for real, but yes I agree that we do need some unequalized BGs for those that want it, ranked and all, so you have something to gear up for in therms of PVP, something to show and brag really about being the best.
  • berrymilkberrymilk ✭✭✭
    I can't see fwc being Un equal until they balance all the classes other then that it would be more broke then it is that why it was fix in the first place was you not here before it was fix? If they can fix the stellar and cc of some classes it might be possible
  • TankyHealerTankyHealer ✭✭✭
    NikuroTega wrote: »

    Just because someone can obtain gold(by someone's hard work farming) faster through EMP sell, buy the best gear(by someone's hard work farming), doesn't mean they automatically become PVE/PVP gods. It takes time to learn the intricacies of a class, and become decently skilled for class efficiency.

    akSzdpp.png


    What I say all the time, you can pay, but it doesn't mean you can win. The other day it was RM jackpot drop events, did RMH with this reaper, full +15 ambush, but rookie on clears. As expected, dies at least 20 times at lachelith, doesn't know in out, doesn't know tail swipe, doesn't know back slam, lasers, push back. Hell I don't think they knew ANY of the mechanics at all.

    Anyways, that is off topic.

    All for uneq FWC. Gears don't grow on trees, people worked hard for them, and they should at least be able to use it. Don't be fooled guys, equalize doesn't mean balanced.
  • fwc will remain equalized.

    players who farmed so hard or p2w will stay in the game regardless cos they have invested too much lmao

    poor thing u guys, nobody forcing you to go lifeless for behemoth +15, even swiped credit card for stuffs

    i have almost all classes and i LOVE EQUALIZED FWC

    i love bragging to my friends and say "look how easy it is to kill that gear carried p2w behemoth thrash in fwc, better if he just afk in velika outskirt"

    HAHA


  • ch0obch0ob ✭✭
    edited May 2017
    FWC was dead when it went equalized. Equalized FWC actually killed off a lot of people's interest in PVP except the people in FF.

    The only reason equalized FWC pops is because EME decided to bring power hours back. Other then that, nobody queued for it. FWC was popping a lot when it was un-equalized without power hour. Then again the credit rewards were also a lot better compared to how it is now.

    Not sure what it'll be like if they brought un-eq FWC back considering I haven't heard if there's gonna be any mid tier pvp gear like conflate being released.
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