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Player Council Application

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Comments

  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Ginjitsu wrote: »
    This is what really matters, I mean it doesn't say you're expected to police the forums...

    OK, I don't know how to make the quotes work and I'm too lazy to figure it out but...

    7 and 8 both talk about benefiting the community. For example, the answer to 8 could be "I can help EmE find and remove disruptive individuals on the forums and speed up the deleting of unwanted topics/posts". And "disruptive individuals" is a direct quote from OP. Please, explain to me how helping with the removal of disruptive individuals is not a type of policing. I'll admit, it's a very low, bottom tier type of policing but reporting on people does qualify, in my opinion at least.
    9 has nothing to do with anything. The answer can literally be a nicely worded "I'd love to get people who disagree with me banned from the forums".

    As for the whole 2 sentences you found...they are taken out of a paragraph that starts with "keeping the community healthy and well-organised". You can claim that just because the first sentence of a paragraph is absolutely about the forums, doesn't mean the rest of it is but don't you just love the "from other players" part? Emphasis on "other". As in, they won't be providing feedback and ideas, they'll just be gathering and organising it. If it were me, I'd be looking for people who can come up with good ideas based on their knowledge and experience. Not for people who can dig through the trash on this forum and make it more organised.

    The basic truth is, OP is looking for forum moderators. All the duties, expectations and "rewards" are standard for a trial forum moderator. Now, maybe it's poor phrasing but I think it's just a poor idea. An actual "player council", what most people expected(and what you still seem to think this is), would NOT have "time spent moderating the forums"-requirement, its goal would be to help improve the game, not the forums, provide ideas that would improve the game, not gather and organise ideas. There would be no obligation to keep the forums tidy and report disruptive individuals(I know, I keep repeating that but it just touches a nerve).
    And I don't have a problem with them looking for volunteer moderators. It's just that... You think the people who could truly help improve the game would wanna clean up trash on the forums? Can you picture Yosha moving topics, for example? You think Yithat would be into editing posts? Can you see any of the top 1% of players being remotely interested in sifting through pages of stupidity on daily basis because they have a time quota to meet?

    So what if the answer to 8 could be what you posted... someone answering that won't get them in. Spacecats already stated:
    Spacecats wrote: »
    What special forum privileges will Player Council members receive?

    We don't want Player Council members to be forum police.
    Take off your tin foil hat and read OP message as a whole, all the answers to your concerns are there...

    The 2 sentences right after the one you quoted:
    Player Council will have the ability to edit and move forum threads for the sole purpose of keeping things well organized. They'll also help report disruptive individuals so that the En Masse team can moderate more efficiently.

    But, noooo, it's not a bottom tier mod team. Editing and moving topics, keeping the forums well-organised and reporting disruptive individuals has nothing to do with being a forum moderator and everything to do with...what exactly? Improving the game?

    I actually did read it as a whole, you are the one who stopped reading after 1 sentence.

    Also, I don't see why saying "I'll do what you ask me to do and enjoy it" won't get somebody in. But I do see Yosha saying "1h moderating the forum per week is too much time" and not being selected for it. Because, obviously, they don't want a janitor who refuses to clean up.
  • edited May 2016
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Also, I don't see why saying "I'll do what you ask me to do and enjoy it" won't get somebody in.
    FWIW, nobody in the hiring process takes those sorts of resumes seriously, since they're obviously lying. But time spent on the forum doesn't necessarily mean time spent doing janitorial work either, since the council itself is on the forum. If you don't want to spend much time on the forum, you won't be able to participate in council activities either. As was possibly-concluded in the long discussion above, it all just needs to be clarified since it's very open to interpretation (and possibly misinterpretation).
  • edited May 2016
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    If you no longer believe or did not mean:
    The whole stated point is to collect feedback, not to be the source of the feedback.
    [...]
    it focuses it more on people who are willing to serve, not just wanting to be listened to.
    is the sole reason of the council, then there's no longer any disagreement between us.

    I did mean it, but not quite in the way you took it. Let me amend to say "not to be the sole source of the feedback" -- in other words, you want someone who listens and considers, and doesn't just assume they already have all the answers. That is also what I meant by "willing to serve, not just wanting to be listened to". You want people who are there to participate and help -- to do what they can for the good of the game -- not only to pontificate. But that doesn't mean the people would not or should not have their opinions to bring to the table, or else you wouldn't seek out people with that much in-game experience. You're banking on that experience to provide good input.

    My reason for saying all that is this principle, even if it's over-simplified: if you just go out and ask for experts, every prideful person will apply. As we see on the forums all the time, a lot of people believe themselves to be experts on all sorts of things, including "what's wrong with this game". So I think there's wisdom in emphasizing not only privilege, but responsibility. If someone's idea of helping is restricted only to "they should listen when I tell them what to do", then there are other ways to incorporate that feedback.

    So, of course I think the people on the council should be experts with something valuable to contribute and be worth listening to. But I think the best candidates will also be good listeners and have a desire to help the game by serving the community (even if that isn't by doing forum janitorial work, but in principle). I think the combination of all these attributes would make them ideal leaders.
  • SpacecatsSpacecats ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sylviette wrote: »
    You don't need to give council member any privilege on the forum. What the Player council should be is where a group of players with great experience and knowledge about the game to sit together and discuss about solving problem in game without personal bias and submit the final solution to be reviewed by EME, in other words, the bridge between EME and the player base. We don't need players as mods for the forum, and I bet truly dedicated players don't want to get picked just to come up everyday cleaning trash threads either.

    That's basically what Player Council will be. Please read through the introduction post. They won't be responsible for cleaning up trash threads, and they won't have the ability to. Anybody can report a post for moderator cleanup.
  • SpacecatsSpacecats ✭✭✭✭✭
    BronzeTube wrote: »
    Wait so the player council position is kind of like forum janitors that work for free?

    No, we're looking for community leaders willing to help enable players to voice their opinions and be heard. They won't be forum moderators.
  • SpacecatsSpacecats ✭✭✭✭✭
    They're basically asking players to take responsibility for things while giving them no power to act on it. I can understand why they wouldn't just hand out power like that. but then what's the point.

    Can you elaborate? Player Council is an opportunity for players to help each other. Nobody is being forced to apply.
    Someone else mentioned this and it sort of makes sense: it's just an opportunity for us to attack each other rather than eme.

    If you attack another person on the forums, you'll be breaking the forum rules and will face suspension or a permanent ban.
  • SpacecatsSpacecats ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Aulon wrote: »
    People state En Masse is out of touch with the player base. En Masse say OK why not create a system where players interact more one on one with us. Maybe this will help us as a company grow and sustain more security and maybe it will help the community grow as well and gain more interest in TERA. That is how I am looking at this system. I know several people who have stated they wish for this and wish for that to be put into play, here is an opportunity for that to happen. Hope it works out for the best

    That's what I expected it to be but somehow... If you read the announcement, there's a lot of "keep the forums healthy" and "report disruptive individuals" talk in it. Sounds a lot like turning the forums into a safespace is one of the major goals of the program. Then you go to the application form and notice that the last question is about how much time you can spend on the forums. Not in game, not discussing game issue but just hanging around the forums, presumably reporting "disruptive individuals". If they were looking for high level players to provide proper feedback(with possible test server access), forum moderation would not have been so important. Do you think that, say, Yosha has time to sit on the forum and move topics? Do you think there's a single top player who'd want to join the neighbourhood watch? When I told my friends application was open, they said I should apply. When I asked them why, they said "you already spend plenty of time on the forums". After reading the topic, they were under the impression that the most important thing was "time spent on forums". None of them thought they should apply because they "don't really like forums".

    You've jumped to the conclusion that spending time on the forums means you're doing nothing but reporting "disruptive individuals." On the other hand it looks like you agree that the forums should be made into a healthy place where people aren't harassed by disruptive individuals. Everyone can help by reporting posts. Player Council aren't moderators. The only thing that makes Player Council different is that they'll be able to see which posts have been reported, are waiting for moderation, or have already been looked at by moderators.

    If you're a "top player" with a ton of game knowledge, you won't be a good fit as a Player Council member if you aren't interested in spending time on the forums, sharing that knowledge.

    On top of that, I don't think Player Council is all about endgame knowledge. There's room in the council for people with a variety of interests, including event planning, roleplaying, guild management, economy, fan art, fan fiction, etc... and there's more to TERA community than reporting game issues. In fact I think getting people with a variety of interests is key to making the Player Council a strong and effective group.

    If anyone reading this is interested in helping the TERA community, but has refrained from applying just because you aren't full +15 VM geared, please click the survey link and tell us about yourself!
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Spacecats wrote: »
    You've jumped to the conclusion that spending time on the forums means you're doing nothing but reporting "disruptive individuals."

    Oh, no, you also get to edit posts, move topics and organise player feedback. And keep the forums a happy and healthy place. I'm just waiting for somebody to tell me how that's not the same as trial moderator.
    On the other hand it looks like you agree that the forums should be made into a healthy place where people aren't harassed by disruptive individuals. Everyone can help by reporting posts.

    I'm not sure what gave you that impression. I'm strongly opposed to safe spaces, reporting people for being "disruptive" and removing/editing posts for any other reason than pure spam(and by that I mean stuff like advertising websites or other games). I've been on these forums for over 2 years and I have never seen anybody harassed by "disruptive individuals". I have seen plenty of people claim they were harassed when somebody disagreed with them or hurt their feelings though. I disagree with moderation of opinions or language because I believe people should be allowed to form their own opinions about an issue or a person. In order to that, they/we need to see both sides which is not something one can do if one side is being moderated for being "disruptive".
    Player Council aren't moderators. The only thing that makes Player Council different is that they'll be able to see which posts have been reported, are waiting for moderation, or have already been looked at by moderators.

    So, what are they? Your description is "edit, move, organise, report". That's a trial moderator. Not a full moderator as it doesn't come with ban, delete and close, just the very basics.
    If you're a "top player" with a ton of game knowledge, you won't be a good fit as a Player Council member if you aren't interested in spending time on the forums, sharing that knowledge.

    At least we agree that time spent on the forums matters more than game knowledge. I guess that tin foil wasn't wasted making the hat after all.
  • SpacecatsSpacecats ✭✭✭✭✭
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Oh, no, you also get to edit posts, move topics and organise player feedback. And keep the forums a happy and healthy place. I'm just waiting for somebody to tell me how that's not the same as trial moderator.

    Think of the ability to move and edit discussions as a tool Player Council members can use to help get information where it needs to go. There are a lot of new forum members that come in and post discussions in the wrong subforum, for instance. Or forget to add a server tag in the Trading Post and Guild Recruitment subforum. Or post a link/image with broken BBCode. Player Council members won't be responsible for fixing any of these, but they'll have the ability to do it if they want to.
    I'm strongly opposed to safe spaces, reporting people for being "disruptive" and removing/editing posts for any other reason than pure spam(and by that I mean stuff like advertising websites or other games). I've been on these forums for over 2 years and I have never seen anybody harassed by "disruptive individuals". I have seen plenty of people claim they were harassed when somebody disagreed with them or hurt their feelings though. I disagree with moderation of opinions or language because I believe people should be allowed to form their own opinions about an issue or a person. In order to that, they/we need to see both sides which is not something one can do if one side is being moderated for being "disruptive".

    I think we'll just have to agree to disagree there. The forum rules and guidelines aren't just here to prevent website spam.


  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    Spacecats wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Oh, no, you also get to edit posts, move topics and organise player feedback. And keep the forums a happy and healthy place. I'm just waiting for somebody to tell me how that's not the same as trial moderator.

    Think of the ability to move and edit discussions as a tool Player Council members can use to help get information where it needs to go. There are a lot of new forum members that come in and post discussions in the wrong subforum, for instance. Or forget to add a server tag in the Trading Post and Guild Recruitment subforum. Or post a link/image with broken BBCode. Player Council members won't be responsible for fixing any of these, but they'll have the ability to do it if they want to.

    So, what else can they do? Because forum moderation and "organising the files" is all you talked about in OP. Plus, you said that game knowledge doesn't matter as much as time spent reading and moderating the forums. I think the biggest misunderstanding here is that a lot of people, me included, thought the Player Council would be tasked with helping EmE localise the game better for Western players(you know, every time a patch hits, there's whining for a month or two or three until stuff gets changed...I figured the Player Council would help skip over the whining part) and not with sorting the mail.
  • PlagueFWCPlagueFWC ✭✭✭
    Damn, i can pretty much read everything on these forums in my 3 15 minute visits i make each day, and that includes the stuff i can already tell is nonsense from the start. Can't believe EmE would even need help with that.
  • edited May 2016
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    xEmptiness wrote: »
    If you no longer believe or did not mean:
    The whole stated point is to collect feedback, not to be the source of the feedback.
    [...]
    it focuses it more on people who are willing to serve, not just wanting to be listened to.
    is the sole reason of the council, then there's no longer any disagreement between us.

    I did mean it, but not quite in the way you took it. Let me amend to say "not to be the sole source of the feedback" -- in other words, you want someone who listens and considers, and doesn't just assume they already have all the answers. That is also what I meant by "willing to serve, not just wanting to be listened to". You want people who are there to participate and help -- to do what they can for the good of the game -- not only to pontificate. But that doesn't mean the people would not or should not have their opinions to bring to the table, or else you wouldn't seek out people with that much in-game experience. You're banking on that experience to provide good input.

    My reason for saying all that is this principle, even if it's over-simplified: if you just go out and ask for experts, every prideful person will apply. As we see on the forums all the time, a lot of people believe themselves to be experts on all sorts of things, including "what's wrong with this game". So I think there's wisdom in emphasizing not only privilege, but responsibility. If someone's idea of helping is restricted only to "they should listen when I tell them what to do", then there are other ways to incorporate that feedback.

    So, of course I think the people on the council should be experts with something valuable to contribute and be worth listening to. But I think the best candidates will also be good listeners and have a desire to help the game by serving the community (even if that isn't by doing forum janitorial work, but in principle). I think the combination of all these attributes would make them ideal leaders.

    A counter-argument could be proposed: in the event of the reverse, where you go out and ask for people with a lot of time to spend on the forums, every bored person will apply. They might not have the attitude, knowledge, communication skills, determination or fortitude for the task. This is simply the natural state of any interview process - the interviewee will unrealistically sell themselves while the interviewer must actively separate fact from fiction.

    If you think it is more reasonable to focus on forum aspect to "weed out" prideful people, it doesn't really work, because no matter how you sell the job, it will be appealing to a bunch of people not fit for the job, such as the counterargument I provided. It is therefore imperative to sell the job as realistically as possible to have the best applicant-pool then exercise best judgement to select the best candidates.

    There is no excuse to deliberately obfuscate the interview process to try discourage certain groups of people. The result is simply worse.
    I don't think the point is to obfuscate. The job does have both aspects to it held in some degree of balance (though we agree that the nature of the balance doesn't seem to be as clear as it could be). But I guess it's just a preference in the end. You (and some others) seem to be most worried that people with the highest degree of expertise get admitted because these people may be influencing decision-making. The concern seems to be that EME will choose under-qualified "clerks" to serve as forum leaders rather than actual experts to act as game advisers (perhaps in part because qualified individuals will be deterred from applying). While I don't discount that, and I think your proposal to distinguish roles is worth considering, it isn't what I personally would be most worried about.

    I tend to think people with game knowledge worth listening to are easier to find because their expertise is already recognized by the community; if you ask these people for their input directly, they will likely provide it, and if you really want them involved in some specific capacity for their expertise, you can always seek them out even if they don't apply. A lot of the people that the community recognizes were already named in the thread; they have an established currency of trust and are already giving their opinions anyway. If the most important point is to gather all the recognized community experts to solicit their opinions about future game decisions, you don't need applications, but nominations. And no matter what happens with the council, it's always possible those sorts of nominations could be considered if they really want to get specific recognized experts involved.

    In any case... I think the point is probably made and it's up to EME to consider how to address it. We're just approaching it from different points of view, so have different ways of accomplishing the objective... but I think we both agree on what the goal should ideally be in the end.


    (Edit: The clarifications added to the opening post now probably help to address at least part of the concern, in that people on the council will be involved base on their area of expertise, not required to do forum moderation duties as if it were some sort of quota. So that may help a bit.)
  • EndevaEndeva ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    So, what else can they do? Because forum moderation and "organising the files" is all you talked about in OP. Plus, you said that game knowledge doesn't matter as much as time spent reading and moderating the forums. I think the biggest misunderstanding here is that a lot of people, me included, thought the Player Council would be tasked with helping EmE localise the game better for Western players(you know, every time a patch hits, there's whining for a month or two or three until stuff gets changed...I figured the Player Council would help skip over the whining part) and not with sorting the mail.
    Maybe you should take a walk to clear your mind and look at Player Council from a fresh perspective.

    Localization team in En Masse will be doing all the localization. Player Council expectations are:
    Spacecats wrote: »
    What is this Player Council thing and what are the expectations?

    The TERA Player Council is an opportunity for TERA players to pitch in and help make the community a happy, healthy, and well-organized place. Only a few players will be selected (at least initially). Player Council members will act as point of contacts and subject matter experts for the benefit of both the En Masse team and the benefit of other players. They'll help gather and organize feedback and ideas from fellow players, ensuring vital feedback and suggestions don't go unseen by En Masse. Basically, they'll be extra pairs of eyes and ears for the TERA Community Team, coordinating with EME and each other in Player Council forums.


  • JenieveJenieve ✭✭✭
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Can you point me to the part of OP that talks about the game itself, anything the Player Council can do in/with the game, anything about test servers?

    I don't think they ever said this had anything to do with test servers or any in-game access at all. It's just a group of people with experience in-game who collect and elevate player feedback and help keep the forum tidy. That's basically it. They're volunteer assistants to the Community Team (a.k.a. Spacecats). And it basically makes sense that this would be the case because the Community Team shrunk from 3 to 1, so Spacecats doesn't have time to do three people's jobs. Hence, looking for volunteer help.

    Helping streamline the player feedback and understanding what is truly important from what is just fluff/BS is probably useful (considering this section of the forum alone has many pages of threads per day). But I suspect people shouldn't have over-inflated expectations. This isn't like Hotline BHS or something. As we know, there's only so much the Community Team or even EME themselves can influence the core development of the game in the first place.

    Playing the game is what actually helps you understand problems. #rocketscience
  • Jenieve wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Can you point me to the part of OP that talks about the game itself, anything the Player Council can do in/with the game, anything about test servers?

    I don't think they ever said this had anything to do with test servers or any in-game access at all. It's just a group of people with experience in-game who collect and elevate player feedback and help keep the forum tidy. That's basically it. They're volunteer assistants to the Community Team (a.k.a. Spacecats). And it basically makes sense that this would be the case because the Community Team shrunk from 3 to 1, so Spacecats doesn't have time to do three people's jobs. Hence, looking for volunteer help.

    Helping streamline the player feedback and understanding what is truly important from what is just fluff/BS is probably useful (considering this section of the forum alone has many pages of threads per day). But I suspect people shouldn't have over-inflated expectations. This isn't like Hotline BHS or something. As we know, there's only so much the Community Team or even EME themselves can influence the core development of the game in the first place.

    Playing the game is what actually helps you understand problems. #rocketscience

    No kidding. Which is why a lot of the application focuses on people's experience playing the game. But there a lot of people who play the game. They don't all need to be on the council to give their input.
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