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Ideas for improving existing BGs

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Comments

  • BorsucBorsuc ✭✭✭
    @Vunak: GS was just an example of course. It's not like priest is missing tons of other kit to avoid getting CCed. One that doesn't even require cooldowns is just using obstacles properly (pillars in Skyring). But of course, cleansing is also immune to KD (and by extension, staggers), and a well-timed cleanse can be used by itself just for that. KDs aren't usually spammed as much as a priest can avoid them with just cleanse. And then, there's Kaia Shield (which is also beyond ridiculous in uneq)... which isn't just for the priest but for the entire team. And I'm not talking about the damage absorption but the KD immunity.

    For mana -- honestly I've almost never seen a priest struggle with mana in uneq, even with sorcs mana draining them. It's like it almost gets rid of a strategy in Skyring. (FWC and other BGs don't matter here since mana regen is enough even with eq gear anyways)


    @ElinUsagi: Yeah, I agree. That's exactly why I dislike GW2 -- not because of the game itself (its equalization is the best and all games should follow suit in my opinion), but because of the game "mechanics" and meta. Games of Endurance are just boring as hell. No wonder it doesn't even have a proper deathmatch mode (or at least it didn't have some time ago, not sure if it does now), "hold the point" is a crap game mode for games with poor mechanics design.

    I mean, there's no adrenaline rush if everything is in slowmo and you can "chill" until a proper setup is available. For me hardcore PvP means you must be on your toes 24/7 no matter what (until the round ends obviously). Never underestimate an enemy which can spike in a few seconds even with seemingly all CDs off. I think Vunak mentioned Giga (chained leash) before, but chilling between Gigas is exactly the problem I have with "non hardcore" PvP.
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    I am not really sure what kind of gameplay on PvP you are looking for but mostly for I can read about what have yuo posted is no the fast paced one but he one that will take longer to fulfill teams their objetives.

    If you lok for fast paced combat and great rewards/punishment for positioning and good/bad desicions then go for healers that can be killed in a second for bad teamwork, however if you like long timed combats where the only strategic is based on how much you can endure a long timed battle then go for healers that will be as hard like a tank or even more to kill and they will be ignored during all the battle because there will be no advantage to trow your attacks against him because it would be an useless effort.

    Nobody is saying that, honestly everything I have said is all about fast paced gameplay. Fast paced doesn't = fast kills exclusively. You are being contradictory in your "hardcore" when all you want is easy kills. DPS in this game is very easy to play, especially with classes like Valkyrie, ninja and reaper, warrior etc. A healer can play near perfectly catch a KD from a Valkyrie and get crit for over 100k from Dream Slash. That isn't rewarding or "hardcore" PvP and there isn't a much you can do about that. It is extremely hard to peel a Valk and that skill is nearly instant.

    In equalized I have one shot people with Arcane Pulse. That isn't rewarding, seeing 80-100k from Arcane Pulse which should never happen and would never happen in non-equalized.

    Your last statement is completely false. If that were the case then Healers wouldn't be focused in non-equalized which isn't the case at all. They are focused harder than any other class. Constant pressure. You and Borsuc seem to deal in absolutes, which PvP isn't so black and white. It isn't, if I can't one combo them, they don't die. It's I keep pressure on them and keep their MP and HP low so a teammate comes in and finishes, or while I have the healer completely busy with staying alive from me, their DPS dies.

    If a healer burns Kaia and GS or Thrall they are very vulnerable. Put enough pressure on a healer and they will burn them, which gives the other team a tremendous advantage to push for a kill or seriously turn a fight in their favor.

    Also healers do have issues with MP when they are being focused in 3s. They can manage with the skills they have which is why you probably don't see healers talk about it as much. Also Sorcerers are a HUGE bane on healers MP in 3s. I have won countless 3s matches because I know when to time Mana Volley and Siphon skills to do maximum damage, leaving them at literally 0 mana and DPS low on HP in desperate need of heals. It is extremely hard for a healer to recover from that when its used at the right time. A lot of Sorcerers don't know how to do that though so that probably has a lot to do with it.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Vunak wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    I am not really sure what kind of gameplay on PvP you are looking for but mostly for I can read about what have yuo posted is no the fast paced one but he one that will take longer to fulfill teams their objetives.

    If you lok for fast paced combat and great rewards/punishment for positioning and good/bad desicions then go for healers that can be killed in a second for bad teamwork, however if you like long timed combats where the only strategic is based on how much you can endure a long timed battle then go for healers that will be as hard like a tank or even more to kill and they will be ignored during all the battle because there will be no advantage to trow your attacks against him because it would be an useless effort.

    Nobody is saying that, honestly everything I have said is all about fast paced gameplay. Fast paced doesn't = fast kills exclusively. You are being contradictory in your "hardcore" when all you want is easy kills. DPS in this game is very easy to play, especially with classes like Valkyrie, ninja and reaper, warrior etc. A healer can play near perfectly catch a KD from a Valkyrie and get crit for over 100k from Dream Slash. That isn't rewarding or "hardcore" PvP and there isn't a much you can do about that. It is extremely hard to peel a Valk and that skill is nearly instant.

    In equalized I have one shot people with Arcane Pulse. That isn't rewarding, seeing 80-100k from Arcane Pulse which should never happen and would never happen in non-equalized.

    Your last statement is completely false. If that were the case then Healers wouldn't be focused in non-equalized which isn't the case at all. They are focused harder than any other class. Constant pressure. You and Borsuc seem to deal in absolutes, which PvP isn't so black and white. It isn't, if I can't one combo them, they don't die. It's I keep pressure on them and keep their MP and HP low so a teammate comes in and finishes, or while I have the healer completely busy with staying alive from me, their DPS dies.

    If a healer burns Kaia and GS or Thrall they are very vulnerable. Put enough pressure on a healer and they will burn them, which gives the other team a tremendous advantage to push for a kill or seriously turn a fight in their favor.

    Also healers do have issues with MP when they are being focused in 3s. They can manage with the skills they have which is why you probably don't see healers talk about it as much. Also Sorcerers are a HUGE bane on healers MP in 3s. I have won countless 3s matches because I know when to time Mana Volley and Siphon skills to do maximum damage, leaving them at literally 0 mana and DPS low on HP in desperate need of heals. It is extremely hard for a healer to recover from that when its used at the right time. A lot of Sorcerers don't know how to do that though so that probably has a lot to do with it.

    Are you aware that you are complaining here about class balance and trying to point that fault at the gear?

    Also are you aware that the same classes and skill would one shot others if they are not at maximum gear level at uneq pvp?

    I invite you to PvP with a healer in Guile +12 with demense accesories and simple brooch vs a valk in full Oblit with keylock accesories and Marrow brooch, then tell me that all you say about eq can't apply there.

    What I clearly see you fall to understand here is that uneq BG gear wouln't allow fair matches if the queves don't restrict people who don't have BiS to enter the BGs. I really happy how that is always avoided and was the first thing pointed by me since many pages ago.

    And yes, uneq BGs only promotes longer battles with less strategic plans as you already mentioned a healer will be able to heal and cc the one that is harassing him making his team win because the other take a useless effor to take down an inmorthal. 3s is not the best example of BGs since strategic gameplay is worlds diferent than a Mass BG like FWC and CS. That buff on healers will only make the battles about will power, the same kind of thing that most people (not only players but spectators also) on other games make them bored and leave looking for other options.
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    ElinUsagi wrote: »

    Are you aware that you are complaining here about class balance and trying to point that fault at the gear?

    Also are you aware that the same classes and skill would one shot others if they are not at maximum gear level at uneq pvp?

    Are you aware that a lot of that happens in Equalized but doesn't in non equalized, because certain classes perform better in equalized gear than others that need the boost from non equalized to perform just as well?

    Again, do we have to wrap this back around to how classes and gear interact with each other and how?

    Arcane Pulse can nearly completely one shot someone in equalized, but can't in non equalized for example.

    That isn't a class balance issue that is a scaling issue. Which is gear related.

    Since you decided to edit and add more here you go.
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    I invite you to PvP with a healer in Guile +12 with demense accesories and simple brooch vs a valk in full Oblit with keylock accesories and Marrow brooch, then tell me that all you say about eq can't apply there.

    What I clearly see you fall to understand here is that uneq BG gear wouln't allow fair matches if the queves don't restrict people who don't have BiS to enter the BGs. I really happy how that is always avoided and was the first thing pointed by me since many pages ago.

    And yes, uneq BGs only promotes longer battles with less strategic plans as you already mentioned a healer will be able to heal and cc the one that is harassing him making his team win because the other take a useless effor to take down an inmorthal. 3s is not the best example of BGs since strategic gameplay is worlds diferent than a Mass BG like FWC and CS. That buff on healers will only make the battles about will power, the same kind of thing that most people (not only players but spectators also) on other games make them bored and leave looking for other options.

    Not even really going to respond to most of this because you said 3s is not the best example of strategic play and PvP just goes to show you literally have 0 clue about PvP in general honestly. And no where did I ever say a healer will be able to heal and CC all at the same time. What?

    TTKs in non-equalized and equalized are all about the same. Just saying.
  • If someone actually PvP's they would think twice about going into an unequalized battleground in guile knowing they will be up against top geared players. It's kinda stupid even though when unequalized fwc during starfall patch it did happen even though those people mainly got kicked.

    Equalized battlegrounds doesn't allow for fair matches either, ever have 5 valks against you? Yeah not a pretty match to even be in. Or perhaps one where the other side doesn't have a front line and all they have is slayers or zerks while the other has a lancer/brawler along with a few valks and reapers. You know which team wins then.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Vunak wrote: »

    Not even really going to respond to most of this because you said 3s is not the best example of strategic play and PvP
    3s is not the best example of BGs since strategic gameplay is worlds diferent than a Mass BG like FWC and CS.

    just goes to show you literally have 0 clue about PvP in general honestly. And no where did I ever say a healer will be able to heal and CC all at the same time. What?

    TTKs in non-equalized and equalized are all about the same. Just saying.

    Many things that you and others have been complaining about eq gear is because you compare many times situations in 1v1 and a few times in 3v3, but most of the times you don't even want to acknowledge FWC and CS are not an individual match or not even a small team comp match but a Mass team comp match. Team work is the key and if one class don't need that teamwork as others then make them imbalanced.

    Is way to obvious that strategic there will be a lot diferent that in 3v3 or 1v1 matches, tell me were I got it wrong.

    And for the other talking about things fair and unfair on eq and uneq, there will be always more unfariness in a match where you have more varialbles to take into account for making the teams who are going to battle. Unless the Match Making is not revamped to not allow players under BiS then you will have more variables in uneq gear BG than in eq BG making the game more about who have better gear than skills it self.
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Many things that you and others have been complaining about eq gear is because you compare many times situations in 1v1 and a few times in 3v3, but most of the times you don't even want to acknowledge FWC and CS are not an individual match or not even a small team comp match but a Mass team comp match. Team work is the key and if one class don't need that teamwork as others then make them imbalanced.

    Is way to obvious that strategic there will be a lot diferent that in 3v3 or 1v1 matches, tell me were I got it wrong.

    And for the other talking about things fair and unfair on eq and uneq, there will be always more unfariness in a match where you have more varialbles to take into account for making the teams who are going to battle. Unless the Match Making is not revamped to not allow players under BiS then you will have more variables in uneq gear BG than in eq BG making the game more about who have better gear than skills it self.


    No where have I ever said anything even remotely close to 1v1 situations. You seem to read what you want to read.

    I have talked about both FWC and 3v3 which are the two top PvP style BGs. FWC is completely skewed in the wrong direction with equalized gear because of how certain classes interact with the equalized gear against others. A Sorcerer can run in and nearly nuke an entire group instantly with an Mana Boosted Meteor Strike out of giga or ground pound. That doesn't happen in non equalized. Lets not even talk about what Valkyries can do in equalized gear compared to non equalized since they are tuned from the start to be extremely strong or reaper.

    The skill caps in non equalized have always been much higher than equalized.

    Lets look at how EME did the tournaments way back when. They didn't put people in equalized gear for a HUGE reason. They let people pick their gear and rolls. in Skyring Slam and Canyon Clash both. EME could have set up equalized matches, but they didn't do that because the equalized gear has never been balanced.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Vunak wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Many things that you and others have been complaining about eq gear is because you compare many times situations in 1v1 and a few times in 3v3, but most of the times you don't even want to acknowledge FWC and CS are not an individual match or not even a small team comp match but a Mass team comp match. Team work is the key and if one class don't need that teamwork as others then make them imbalanced.

    Is way to obvious that strategic there will be a lot diferent that in 3v3 or 1v1 matches, tell me were I got it wrong.

    And for the other talking about things fair and unfair on eq and uneq, there will be always more unfariness in a match where you have more varialbles to take into account for making the teams who are going to battle. Unless the Match Making is not revamped to not allow players under BiS then you will have more variables in uneq gear BG than in eq BG making the game more about who have better gear than skills it self.


    No where have I ever said anything even remotely close to 1v1 situations. You seem to read what you want to read.

    I have talked about both FWC and 3v3 which are the two top PvP style BGs. FWC is completely skewed in the wrong direction with equalized gear because of how certain classes interact with the equalized gear against others. A Sorcerer can run in and nearly nuke an entire group instantly with an Mana Boosted Meteor Strike out of giga or ground pound. That doesn't happen in non equalized. Lets not even talk about what Valkyries can do in equalized gear compared to non equalized since they are tuned from the start to be extremely strong or reaper.

    The skill caps in non equalized have always been much higher than equalized.

    Lets look at how EME did the tournaments way back when. They didn't put people in equalized gear for a HUGE reason. They let people pick their gear and rolls. in Skyring Slam and Canyon Clash both. EME could have set up equalized matches, but they didn't do that because the equalized gear has never been balanced.

    Back in the days EME did tournaments Tera was a game that could brag about gear not being a real factor to win at PvP, these times are not those my friend, now gear can carry and diference between comple BiS gear vs Misery and mid tier jewellery are around 30% or even more. Also in those days healers were to broken that no class could even take them in 1v1 much less on mass pvp, or are you going to deny even that?

    That is why I keep saying that if uneq BGs are going to come (that is something already confirmed) then to make BGs fair you need to 1)Revamp the matchmaking so you don't allow that 30% of disparity in matches or 2)not let anyone who doesn't have BiS queve for them.

    Now most people that cries here about EQ gear I can asure you that will come here to the forums crying about how broken are the new and revamped classes on PvP because they never cared for class balance but only to be able to play with "my gear". Then they will also keep crying (because they already are) about how anyone can know what team is goind to win only looking at the team comps.

    Tell me something that really will change in uneq that will make stop people to complain about those things? They already say EQ gear is the problem and making them UNEQ will solve it and you know tha is a lie.
  • gibgib ✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »

    Tell me something that really will change in uneq that will make stop people to complain about those things? They already say EQ gear is the problem and making them UNEQ will solve it and you know tha is a lie.

    getting rid of all forms of pvp gear and implement a completely reroll-able gear set just for pvping. then no one gets to complain about EQ vs unEQ.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    gib wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »

    Tell me something that really will change in uneq that will make stop people to complain about those things? They already say EQ gear is the problem and making them UNEQ will solve it and you know tha is a lie.

    getting rid of all forms of pvp gear and implement a completely reroll-able gear set just for pvping. then no one gets to complain about EQ vs unEQ.

    Yeah, mostly something like that.

    Or maybe, class and gear balance for PvP should take into account the most popular PvP content from the game, if is 3v3 then make the balance to work on that. Having lots of PvP content to run also makes dificult to balance properly without screwing at some of them.
  • BorsucBorsuc ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Vunak wrote: »
    Lets look at how EME did the tournaments way back when. They didn't put people in equalized gear for a HUGE reason. They let people pick their gear and rolls. in Skyring Slam and Canyon Clash both. EME could have set up equalized matches, but they didn't do that because the equalized gear has never been balanced.
    Maybe, maybe not. I mean, EME allowed res in the Skyring Slam and we all know how that went. Just saying, their decisions aren't always good.

    (nevermind the fact you can even pull off res like this in this game shows just how [filtered] healers are, in a twisted way)
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Back in the days EME did tournaments Tera was a game that could brag about gear not being a real factor to win at PvP, these times are not those my friend, now gear can carry and diference between comple BiS gear vs Misery and mid tier jewellery are around 30% or even more. Also in those days healers were to broken that no class could even take them in 1v1 much less on mass pvp, or are you going to deny even that?

    That is why I keep saying that if uneq BGs are going to come (that is something already confirmed) then to make BGs fair you need to 1)Revamp the matchmaking so you don't allow that 30% of disparity in matches or 2)not let anyone who doesn't have BiS queve for them.

    Now most people that cries here about EQ gear I can asure you that will come here to the forums crying about how broken are the new and revamped classes on PvP because they never cared for class balance but only to be able to play with "my gear". Then they will also keep crying (because they already are) about how anyone can know what team is goind to win only looking at the team comps.

    Tell me something that really will change in uneq that will make stop people to complain about those things? They already say EQ gear is the problem and making them UNEQ will solve it and you know tha is a lie.

    Irrelevant Skyring Slam had +15 gear as well. And yes Healers are still killable just as they were back in the day. More so because Kaia back in the day actually shielded for more because people weren't putting out the damage they are now.

    Borsuc wrote: »
    Maybe, maybe not. I mean, EME allowed res in the Skyring Slam and we all know how that went. Just saying, their decisions aren't always good.

    (nevermind the fact you can even pull off res like this in this game shows just how [filtered] healers are, in a twisted way)

    Technically they allowed it because the playerbase said it was okay. They asked the players bout rules they wanted/didnt want and ressing was one of the things people agreed on more than disagreed on. Whether it was the right decision or not is up for debate (which I agree with, ressing in 3s is stupid). One thing the entire community agreed on however was the gear.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vunak wrote: »
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Back in the days EME did tournaments Tera was a game that could brag about gear not being a real factor to win at PvP, these times are not those my friend, now gear can carry and diference between comple BiS gear vs Misery and mid tier jewellery are around 30% or even more. Also in those days healers were to broken that no class could even take them in 1v1 much less on mass pvp, or are you going to deny even that?

    That is why I keep saying that if uneq BGs are going to come (that is something already confirmed) then to make BGs fair you need to 1)Revamp the matchmaking so you don't allow that 30% of disparity in matches or 2)not let anyone who doesn't have BiS queve for them.

    Now most people that cries here about EQ gear I can asure you that will come here to the forums crying about how broken are the new and revamped classes on PvP because they never cared for class balance but only to be able to play with "my gear". Then they will also keep crying (because they already are) about how anyone can know what team is goind to win only looking at the team comps.

    Tell me something that really will change in uneq that will make stop people to complain about those things? They already say EQ gear is the problem and making them UNEQ will solve it and you know tha is a lie.

    Irrelevant Skyring Slam had +15 gear as well. And yes Healers are still killable just as they were back in the day. More so because Kaia back in the day actually shielded for more because people weren't putting out the damage they are now.

    Oh! Then you are forgetting that healers back in that day received a buff of 40% damage reduccion and other kind of bufss on BGs?

    Just to show you at what extremes the crying from healers get to make EME staff (not even BHS) make a stupid desicion about PvP content.

    Try to remember how healers always cry because they have dps harrasing them all the time and became the class more favored in Tera and the most hard to kill and maybe the less rewarding to make them a strategic objective in the game, back in those days you got rid the idea to focuss them and then better start trying to end a war of willpower between groups and guess what happened? The decline of the PvP comunity.

    I would say that BHS should take a really careful thought before to comply to those so called PvP healers that want to be always the last man standing becuase their team mates refuse to peel them. Trowing faults to gear or other things rather to see that their group don't care for Team Play and that should be punished with wipes again.

    Pls, make the same mistakes as those in 2012 so PvP comunity one again dilute to other games as before for how strategic gameplay is killed for the sake of satisfied once again the healers in the game.
  • MiskuChanMiskuChan ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Vunak wrote: »
    Irrelevant Skyring Slam had +15 gear as well. And yes Healers are still killable just as they were back in the day. More so because Kaia back in the day actually shielded for more because people weren't putting out the damage they are now.

    No, that's stupid.

    One void pulse or half a radiant arrow charge could break kaias back in vm1/vm2, even a single wallop could do it and zerker thunder strike was no problem. Many classes could also solo a priest in vm1/vm2. Now, with 10 second GS, 40k kaias and triple cds also crit resist etchings and attack speed etchings, it's basically impossible to solo a +15 healer with +15 gear. Oh I also forgot about dyads lul, relentless and warding luls.

    Not to mention how easy it is for lancer/priest comp with rallying cry and guardian shout.

    It's blindingly obvious you're either new or never played 3's back then.
  • VunakVunak ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    MiskuChan wrote: »
    Vunak wrote: »
    Irrelevant Skyring Slam had +15 gear as well. And yes Healers are still killable just as they were back in the day. More so because Kaia back in the day actually shielded for more because people weren't putting out the damage they are now.

    No, that's stupid.

    One void pulse or half a radiant arrow charge could break kaias back in vm1/vm2, even a single wallop could do it and zerker thunder strike was no problem. Many classes could also solo a priest in vm1/vm2. Now, with 10 second GS, 40k kaias and triple cds also crit resist etchings and attack speed etchings, it's basically impossible to solo a +15 healer with +15 gear. Oh I also forgot about dyads lul, relentless and warding luls.

    Not to mention how easy it is for lancer/priest comp with rallying cry and guardian shout.

    It's blindingly obvious you're either new or never played 3's back then.

    We didn't have classes like Valk, reaper, revamp archer etc. back then either, so the damage certainly wasn't at the output it is now. One VP or Arcane Pulse could easily take a Priests Kaia now as well so that's kinda moot especially in equalized. But yes I exaggerated, but I could one combo healers for days before Sorcerer revamp +15 vs 15 easy. I haven't really put the time in post revamp to do the same admittedly.

    Lancer/Priest/?? has always been a really strong comp. That is more a Lancer thing than a Priest thing though, rallying and guardian shout I mean, as they are still a strong comp with a mystic and auras. Just depends on the comp they are fighting which healer would be better.

    I'm a Blood Rave/ Blood Soaked Sorcerer.
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