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Kumasylum BG / Status of unavailable but existant items.
Greetings @Spacecats @seandynamite @Halrath . I wanna talk about 2 topics that just crossed my mind some time earlier this week. This thread inspired me to talk about an old BG that for most was fun, and for others it was complete cancer. This BG was known as Kumasylum. Lets start with this one.
Kumasylum was basically a "Capture the Flag" BG, which in FPS games, is one of my favorites modes. It pits 10 players as the Federation Team, against 3 players controlling very strong Kumases. The objective for the Federation was to Take 2/3 candies to their spawn points safely, and in the case of Kumases, defend the candies at all costs.
Now when i first tried this BG, i liked it a lot, i spammed it constantly because it was fun, it was different, it required actual teamwork and careful thinking and evaluation to be successful, in both teams. Sadly this BG was removed after a few due to player complains and inbalance, and later on, replaced with what we know as Kumas Royale, which to me, is a dumb down version of the old Kumasylum.
Lets see why this BG failed, at least here in NA and what i personally think:
- Starting point, Kumas were very overpowered and hard to win against. Federation team, unorganized, quickly gave up.
- Adjustments for Kumases team were made, still very powerful, but not invincible.
- Players figured out strategies for Federation team. Good leadership always lead to a winning situation for Federation Team.
- Kumases team also figured strategies to avoid losing against a well organized federation team. Balance existed for a couple of days.
- Starting point of downhill of Kumasylum: Reaper. Continuous KDs and stagger made em unbeatable against Kumases.
- Win trade and feeding started to happen in Kumasylum. It only took one or two person in federation team, and 1 in kumases team, to instantly give the match to either side, pissing off a lot of players.
- Cheaters happened. Discovery of something i will not discuss in the forums, made Federation team invincible, by taking the candy out of the map, or removing collision from everything. Kumases discovered this cheat too, and did the same to avoid loosing, wasting a good 10 minutes of everyone time.
- Honest players (including me) were started to be labeled as bad players for not using the cheats in order to win.
- Rewards for losing or winning were not motivational enough for both teams.
- Forced win/lose by Kumases when they saw a certain person or an X amount of reapers in the federation team.
- Players constantly ranted about this BG for not being actual PvP by "standards" of players in PvP servers.
- End of Kumasylum after failed attempts to fix the current situation.
The easy solution is to always remove something, instead of taking it down for a short time to undergo extensive rework, which is what should had happened with Kumasylum.
In resume, we lost a good and fun BG, because of cheaters and players not feeling motivated enough to run it.
Heres how i would had fixed the issue with Kumasylum.
- Increase rewards. Has to be good enough for both sides, winning and losing. Problem with original rewards was that if Federation won with all 3 candies, Kumas got absolutely nothing. Instead of having the rewards be based on amount of candies turned in, it should be simply based on winning and losing sides. Would be good to implement something like in CS, where we can use the scrolls we win from losing, to make a winning box.
- Balance the power in both teams. Kumases should be able to quickly support each other when a candy is taken, and Federation should have a higher defense against Kumases attacks. How to do so would be to add a skill for just the Kumas mother to save the candy carrier from dying. Can only be used once per kumas baby. Federation could have simply their endurance increased based on the class. Heavy armored people like Lancers and Brawlers should have the highest endurance for example.
- To avoid random people to pick candy and make a mistake, Leader of Federation should be allowed to designate carriers.
- Lower defense of Kumas candy carrier, and lower their respawn timer. This would give the Federation a quick opportunity to retake candy, and the opportunity for Kumases to regroup quicker.
- Federation team knew location of candies from just looking at one chest. Remove this, and apply a scan function to see where each candy is for a short time. Kumases can know of this, and counter it with their own skill to relocate candies. Increase time in BG because of constant scanning and relocation, lower HP on chests.
- Kick by majority of vote, instead of unanimous vote. This will help deal with dishonest players and afkers.
- Sometimes 3 kumases isnt enough. Add a 4th AI Kumas as a skill from the Kumas mother.
- Should cheaters happen again, make it so that if one is detected to be outside of map boundaries, or inside the map (collission removed) It will be an automatic win for the team who's not cheating. Or simply EME could dedicate a team to look for this cheaters when a report is made.
- Some player skills give too much of an advantage over the Kumases. Priest leash and Ralying Cry are such skills. Increase cooldown on both skill when in Kumasylum.
- Some people in Federation team simply does not want to cooperate and keep breaking chests even tho all 3 candies had been found. Make it so that all chests will disappear once all 3 candies have been revealed.
So far this is all i got for this specific BG.
@Spacecats @seandynamite @Halrath If you wouldn't mind discussing this with BHS. This BG is fun and different. For many it was a good way to spend time in TERA when this BG came out, and it certainly is better than Kumas Royale.
Now, onto the 2nd topic, which is much more simple to discuss: Dragon Fireworks and Half/Quarter day Signs. When? This items were removed 5 minutes after they were introduced, the first one because idiot players decided it was a good idea to spam it on crowded areas, lowering FPS and crashing some of them. Many players who wanted to get them and use them "properly" were denied this chance because of a minority. The same happened with the Half/Quarter day signs. Because of a poorly implemented word filter, the same players who spammed the dragon fireworks till they were removed, spammed profanity in this signs, all over the place. 5 minutes later, they get removed, and only the minority who was spamming this signs, got to keep em, while the vast majority who wanted to get their hands on this item, were once again declined the chance. Some time later they were added again with a better word filter, but once again removed 5 minutes later.
When will there be a permanent solution to this other than keep denying us the majority, the chance to get our hands on it, just because of fear that the minority will once again do the same that drove you guys to removing them from the game?
Kumasylum was basically a "Capture the Flag" BG, which in FPS games, is one of my favorites modes. It pits 10 players as the Federation Team, against 3 players controlling very strong Kumases. The objective for the Federation was to Take 2/3 candies to their spawn points safely, and in the case of Kumases, defend the candies at all costs.
Now when i first tried this BG, i liked it a lot, i spammed it constantly because it was fun, it was different, it required actual teamwork and careful thinking and evaluation to be successful, in both teams. Sadly this BG was removed after a few due to player complains and inbalance, and later on, replaced with what we know as Kumas Royale, which to me, is a dumb down version of the old Kumasylum.
Lets see why this BG failed, at least here in NA and what i personally think:
- Starting point, Kumas were very overpowered and hard to win against. Federation team, unorganized, quickly gave up.
- Adjustments for Kumases team were made, still very powerful, but not invincible.
- Players figured out strategies for Federation team. Good leadership always lead to a winning situation for Federation Team.
- Kumases team also figured strategies to avoid losing against a well organized federation team. Balance existed for a couple of days.
- Starting point of downhill of Kumasylum: Reaper. Continuous KDs and stagger made em unbeatable against Kumases.
- Win trade and feeding started to happen in Kumasylum. It only took one or two person in federation team, and 1 in kumases team, to instantly give the match to either side, pissing off a lot of players.
- Cheaters happened. Discovery of something i will not discuss in the forums, made Federation team invincible, by taking the candy out of the map, or removing collision from everything. Kumases discovered this cheat too, and did the same to avoid loosing, wasting a good 10 minutes of everyone time.
- Honest players (including me) were started to be labeled as bad players for not using the cheats in order to win.
- Rewards for losing or winning were not motivational enough for both teams.
- Forced win/lose by Kumases when they saw a certain person or an X amount of reapers in the federation team.
- Players constantly ranted about this BG for not being actual PvP by "standards" of players in PvP servers.
- End of Kumasylum after failed attempts to fix the current situation.
The easy solution is to always remove something, instead of taking it down for a short time to undergo extensive rework, which is what should had happened with Kumasylum.
In resume, we lost a good and fun BG, because of cheaters and players not feeling motivated enough to run it.
Heres how i would had fixed the issue with Kumasylum.
- Increase rewards. Has to be good enough for both sides, winning and losing. Problem with original rewards was that if Federation won with all 3 candies, Kumas got absolutely nothing. Instead of having the rewards be based on amount of candies turned in, it should be simply based on winning and losing sides. Would be good to implement something like in CS, where we can use the scrolls we win from losing, to make a winning box.
- Balance the power in both teams. Kumases should be able to quickly support each other when a candy is taken, and Federation should have a higher defense against Kumases attacks. How to do so would be to add a skill for just the Kumas mother to save the candy carrier from dying. Can only be used once per kumas baby. Federation could have simply their endurance increased based on the class. Heavy armored people like Lancers and Brawlers should have the highest endurance for example.
- To avoid random people to pick candy and make a mistake, Leader of Federation should be allowed to designate carriers.
- Lower defense of Kumas candy carrier, and lower their respawn timer. This would give the Federation a quick opportunity to retake candy, and the opportunity for Kumases to regroup quicker.
- Federation team knew location of candies from just looking at one chest. Remove this, and apply a scan function to see where each candy is for a short time. Kumases can know of this, and counter it with their own skill to relocate candies. Increase time in BG because of constant scanning and relocation, lower HP on chests.
- Kick by majority of vote, instead of unanimous vote. This will help deal with dishonest players and afkers.
- Sometimes 3 kumases isnt enough. Add a 4th AI Kumas as a skill from the Kumas mother.
- Should cheaters happen again, make it so that if one is detected to be outside of map boundaries, or inside the map (collission removed) It will be an automatic win for the team who's not cheating. Or simply EME could dedicate a team to look for this cheaters when a report is made.
- Some player skills give too much of an advantage over the Kumases. Priest leash and Ralying Cry are such skills. Increase cooldown on both skill when in Kumasylum.
- Some people in Federation team simply does not want to cooperate and keep breaking chests even tho all 3 candies had been found. Make it so that all chests will disappear once all 3 candies have been revealed.
So far this is all i got for this specific BG.
@Spacecats @seandynamite @Halrath If you wouldn't mind discussing this with BHS. This BG is fun and different. For many it was a good way to spend time in TERA when this BG came out, and it certainly is better than Kumas Royale.
Now, onto the 2nd topic, which is much more simple to discuss: Dragon Fireworks and Half/Quarter day Signs. When? This items were removed 5 minutes after they were introduced, the first one because idiot players decided it was a good idea to spam it on crowded areas, lowering FPS and crashing some of them. Many players who wanted to get them and use them "properly" were denied this chance because of a minority. The same happened with the Half/Quarter day signs. Because of a poorly implemented word filter, the same players who spammed the dragon fireworks till they were removed, spammed profanity in this signs, all over the place. 5 minutes later, they get removed, and only the minority who was spamming this signs, got to keep em, while the vast majority who wanted to get their hands on this item, were once again declined the chance. Some time later they were added again with a better word filter, but once again removed 5 minutes later.
When will there be a permanent solution to this other than keep denying us the majority, the chance to get our hands on it, just because of fear that the minority will once again do the same that drove you guys to removing them from the game?
4
Comments
Of course, it isn't fair that an entire battleground as well as the fireworks/signs had to be removed just because of these cheaters in the minority. You could make a perfect battleground free of exploits (maybe lol) but there will always be people that try to cheat or harass other players. But that's just a community problem and I have no idea how to fix it
Relog candy
Pick a candy on a horrible position and close the client. Candy goes back to center back of the map, always same position, not the starting position of the specific candy. Could pile up all 3 on the same place.
Regarding this cheat/exploit I gotta say that it was of very little help to fed. team, and avoided adding any significant benefit for the fed. team, in fact any decent or even not so horrible Kumas was told to wait on the middle, or kill any player on the middle, so that when the candy got relogged, it was protected just as much as when it was on back left corner (the usual position that got relogged). It really wasn't all that much.
Kumasylum had all sorts of nerfs/buffs and invisible wall additions/removals over it's lifespan, and every single time these new tricks were found, both fed. and Kumas teams were quick to develop strategies to counter/use it.
In short I'll say that any map specific exploit or cheat was more of a strategical test and not an unfair play advantage.
Like you said tho: balance was.
The balance on a 3 vs 10 BG is inherently difficult, even more so with class revamps, buffs/nerfs or anything of sorts. I started playing during Reaper so I cannot deny that reaper was OP on the battleground during that time, but I can say for sure that's not the nail in the coffin, as when I "got gud" at the BG, really top tier level on the ranks, I saw that Reapers weren't all that much there, they were another DPS with it's pros and cons, good reapers could do mayhem for sure, average or even above average reapers tho were easy to smash flies. By that time of course Reapers weren't the shiniest toy on the box and had it's balance fixed on Kumasylum.
The force draws and such happened with Gunner. That's when the BG went on a steady or increasing downhill race until it just crashed and burned into the 30min queue (when CS was 5 tops) "Drawsylum", when any single Kumas team disbanded by either 2 people logging out, or one logging and another going disband. Gunner start was stupid beyond help, one Gunner literally soloed an average Kumas mama, let alone baby.
Checking some of your solutions to the BG, I agree with some, want to revise some, and disagree with others, as well, it's normal with any people (with a brain not a hater that is):
- They tried rewards, it just wasn't enough to save the sinking ship tho. Win or lose as normal, +1 candy box for Kumas team regardless of result. We cannot also forget, that Candy box was the most minimal reward of that BG, win box was pretty awesome and Candy box was more of a side... well... candy. Still, I agree if they bring it back, it needs good rewards.
- Basically this balance was already a thing back then, and will always be a constant source of work on a 3 vs 10 BG (or heck any BG), Kumas Mama did have heal skill with 1 minute CD, highest endurance and balance on the metal classes (and Warrior) was the norm back then too, I can imagine it continuing to be a thing if it ever comes back (hope it does...)
- I think leader named carries will do more harm than good: There was of course Kuuchan leads (Toootally not bragging at all... heh I was on the best carriers/leaders anyway), but then there's those average Beaves that doesn't know the BG all too well but just orders around cause eh, he's lead. This, only counting lead capacity: there was many, MANY moments when spur of the moment/saving hero carriers literally won the game, I once managed to carry the candy on my Sorcerer when I saw all Kumases were on the other side, and there was no one to take the candy and run it, but time was ticking. That and carrier that dies near end.
- I don't think either of these will do good, the Kumas was easy enough to kill with a good team, and respawn time was one of the biggest strategy points. Tho, decreasing spawn time could be a thing.
- I think you'll be swapping 6 for half a dozen with that. Scan for fixed pattern, sounds like no change, or if scan is like, only after 1~2 min like CS, that would heavily harm fed. team, to the point of making it close to impossible to win.
- Agree, although unanimity vote worked somehow, specially since it was unanimity but no in-combat rule, but with this we never could kick a troll duo, which also was a thing. 8/9 votes (from the 10 team), reducing just one vote, sounds good. Having 3 trolls on one team would be too much statistically.
- I think 3 Kumases is the deal on the BG, 3 candies, 3 Kumases. Depends on class balance that is. The AI Kumas tho: any AFK/missing member being replaced by AI kumases until a player is found, properly hard AI, sounds great. Literally would kill off the Kumas draw forcing.
- Maybe some change to automatic kick instead? Tho I can see this as a huge technical marvel to detect cheats that every time get patched by the cheaters.
- This was a thing. When Priest's Divine Intervention (AKA Pull) came, it was left with original CD and it was real cancer for Kumas team. Then it got nerfed to 2 min. CD inside Kumasylum. Makes sense, same as Thrall of Wrath nerfed out on CS, Blessing of Resurrection and such, we just need the right nerfs for the balance.
- Eh dunno, could be, would force the idiots who refuse to read (Please guys don't come with the BRs excuse, even I who know english well, used to be a farmer *ard when I was a beginner and was like "eh?? what am I farming???). But in other hand, once all hope is lost there's just one thing to do and it's to try to get some amethyst from chests. I can give it tho that it would force people to try a bit harder.
Your last part is the one that I agree wholeheartedly: Why denying something from all because some few cancer try to ruin it? Dealing with those is the issue.
It baffles me that some people will likely still come to this topic with stuff like "please no, don't re-add this and remove tanks and Kumas Royalle too, I hate that" like, they don't like it, so no one should play it if they like.
I think the option should be left for who wants it.
Unfortunately, people once again found out a way to exploit the "fix" and used the relog candy to move candies that were on upper levels, to the ground level. Worst thing, this exploit not always worked. Sometimes, due to the exploit, the candy would drop undergroud away of the reach of Federation team, which is why i refused to do this all the time, yet people demanded me to use the exploit.
I clearly remember someone asking to EME to ask BHS if there could be a way to drop the candy legally, instead of resorting to exploits. I would had liked the idea too, but it would kill the fun of the BG where someone has to carry the candy all the way to the federation ship while the rest protects.
Since we are speaking about the many exploits that made this BG unplayable and lead to its removal, I wanna point out that the thing i was talking and would not discuss about it on this forums, was not an exploit like relog candy. I'm talking bout actual cheats.
People managed to mess with the files, and created cheats for this specific BG, such as speed hack, where carrier just grabbed candy and would out run kumases even with candy debuff. There was also people who deleted files from their client to bypass walls and everything. This were the most common ways people were actually cheating in Kumasylum.
The worst thing was that many of the ones who got reported, were never banned. It got to a point where people demanded everyone to use the cheats and exploits in order to win. Should you decided to be an honest player, well, they would even go as far as to harass you on your server.
Sounds like actual cheating was an issue way worse back then, but I'll still put my bet on the reason for it dying was balancing after Gunner and consequent player griefing on the Kumas side (the force draw).
I just hope BHS one day starts caring one bit about their products so it could come back with some decent balancing to avoid most of those issues, but well, it's costly to do it so we can only hope...
I think additional content is nice to have but when player base is not that high could hurt the current q times for all BGs and Dungeons.
I think first step would be to work on how this game could attract more new players and how to retain the ones yet playing.
As the game stands now I think that the most content it has the most empty it feels, because people will struggle to run a certain BG or a certain Dungeons becuase players are diluted on each content avaliable and that is not good when the player base is not as big as needed to make healty matchmaking queves.
Just look at what has been done in LoL, even having millions of players they resorted to remove permanent content so people could take less time on their main battleground, mean while the content removed where modified and brought back as a montly or weekle content so players can enjoy something diferent each month.
I think that could be a great idea, making Tera to focus in main content but having more content rotation for those who looks to run something diferent to feel some what refreshed.