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The 3rd Party Thread

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Comments

  • Starkhoe wrote: »
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    Therefore, people who got temporary ban was not cheating? I know it sounds like stupid, but this is why I am asking GMs to clarify their regulations. Why did those people got only temporary ban even if they obviously used 3rd party program?

    You are trying to "bait" a publishing company into an open public argument as a single individual, under the argument that they're bans appear to be circumstantial or based on various levels of severity for each case. What you are proposing is essentially an absolute enforcement of policy to its upmost extent, regardless of any technicalities or implications which might be involved in the process. I hope you understand that's not going to happen. Especially not like this.

    Hypothetically speaking, lets say that EME had the manpower and ability to address any and all cases as one, in a single day. Lets say that they banned everyone that used third party software, and even found a way to prevent people from being able to use them at all. Lets say that happened. Erasing all those people, as if they were letters on a blackboard. Just like that. Poof. Magic. What happens next? will we be seeing a tranquil and utopian society where all problems are fixed? or will we perhaps witness a lose of a very large and dedicated playerbase? or better yet, do you suppose it would be in a company's interest to act strictly on policy, and set themselves up by creating a public image of a tyrant?

    I get what you're saying. But, no offense, if I was a company, even I wouldn't listen to you. I`m not an expert, but (imo) it would be much more profitable to capitalize, exploit, maybe even employ, and explore player-made improvements favorably, and maybe find a way to officially incorporate them into the game. At this point in time, I think that the software can`t be killed, without killing off the game. Perhaps a better argument would be, that if BHS optimized the game experience in the first place, then this situation might have been mediated, or at least downsized.

    I agree with you, and yes, my original comment included kinda joke as you may assume. However, what I keep saying is like this.

    Game dev/publisher announces "A" but they actually does "B" without any notice.

    This is definitely not a good situation. It is like "We do w/e we want, so just suck it up."

    I also want to emphasize that EME has been working hard on several issue that is severely spreading in TERA, hack, lag, etc. Indeed, what they have been doing for those issue are quite reliable. But still, it is different from what they announced. I am not arguing about their actions. But we, players, have the right to get correct info from GMs especially for something that they officially announced. If their announcement includes a false info and they keep doing whatever they decide, it means they are ignoring people's right.

    This is very minor issue and 99.99999 % people will not care, I know. But I want them not to make any confusing as a game management.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    This is definitely not a good situation. It is like "We do w/e we want, so just suck it up."

    It is, however, the TL;DR version of ToS.
  • PixelatorPixelator ✭✭✭✭
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    Starkhoe wrote: »
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    Therefore, people who got temporary ban was not cheating? I know it sounds like stupid, but this is why I am asking GMs to clarify their regulations. Why did those people got only temporary ban even if they obviously used 3rd party program?

    You are trying to "bait" a publishing company into an open public argument as a single individual, under the argument that they're bans appear to be circumstantial or based on various levels of severity for each case. What you are proposing is essentially an absolute enforcement of policy to its upmost extent, regardless of any technicalities or implications which might be involved in the process. I hope you understand that's not going to happen. Especially not like this.

    Hypothetically speaking, lets say that EME had the manpower and ability to address any and all cases as one, in a single day. Lets say that they banned everyone that used third party software, and even found a way to prevent people from being able to use them at all. Lets say that happened. Erasing all those people, as if they were letters on a blackboard. Just like that. Poof. Magic. What happens next? will we be seeing a tranquil and utopian society where all problems are fixed? or will we perhaps witness a lose of a very large and dedicated playerbase? or better yet, do you suppose it would be in a company's interest to act strictly on policy, and set themselves up by creating a public image of a tyrant?

    I get what you're saying. But, no offense, if I was a company, even I wouldn't listen to you. I`m not an expert, but (imo) it would be much more profitable to capitalize, exploit, maybe even employ, and explore player-made improvements favorably, and maybe find a way to officially incorporate them into the game. At this point in time, I think that the software can`t be killed, without killing off the game. Perhaps a better argument would be, that if BHS optimized the game experience in the first place, then this situation might have been mediated, or at least downsized.

    I agree with you, and yes, my original comment included kinda joke as you may assume. However, what I keep saying is like this.

    Game dev/publisher announces "A" but they actually does "B" without any notice.

    This is definitely not a good situation. It is like "We do w/e we want, so just suck it up."

    I also want to emphasize that EME has been working hard on several issue that is severely spreading in TERA, hack, lag, etc. Indeed, what they have been doing for those issue are quite reliable. But still, it is different from what they announced. I am not arguing about their actions. But we, players, have the right to get correct info from GMs especially for something that they officially announced. If their announcement includes a false info and they keep doing whatever they decide, it means they are ignoring people's right.

    This is very minor issue and 99.99999 % people will not care, I know. But I want them not to make any confusing as a game management.
    Look at it this way: a temporary ban would offset the advantages they got from the less severe proxy modules, while not completely alienating them from the game.
  • BeomBeom ✭✭
    > @JasonTERA said:
    > Game dev/publisher announces "A" but they actually does "B" without any notice.
    >
    > This is definitely not a good situation. It is like "We do w/e we want, so just suck it up."


    Well, I think EME has the right for this as stated in their ToS. So the only thing that players can do is what you said. "Suck it up".

    In any online game, mostly in north america, ToS does not care about players' right.

    Now, let's think about this. EME significantly reduces dungeon and quest reward. Are peole going to suck it up? Maybe not.. but why? It's EME's right..
  • 66ECX7NAN766ECX7NAN7 ✭✭✭✭
    kubitoid wrote: »
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    3. Modifying ini file.

    - As most people already knew, there is a plain text file for TERA settings. And by adding/editing those files, people can self-optimize their TERA and/or extent FOV. This does not affect directly player's gameplay so that it is also kind of "for general purpose". And some people argue that it is intended by TERA since it is just a plain text file.
    People are debating whether this is against ToS or not. So we need to be confirmed by GMs.

    from EULA:
    2. Additional Limitations
    ...You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
    F. modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game Client of TERA in any way not expressly authorized by En Masse;

    sadly it doesnt say you can modify ini file coz its obviously is a part of game client. modifying it is EULA violation

    So they will ban you if they find out you did it?
  • Ginjitsu wrote: »
    DPS meters aren't really needed and players did just fine without it for years, even class changes have been made do to player feedback before it was meters were introduced.

    Even that being the case, I'd argue a lot of people want it. I think there's some reason kTERA decided to rewrite their ToS to allow DPS meters. :thinking:
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    I agree with you, and yes, my original comment included kinda joke as you may assume. However, what I keep saying is like this.

    Game dev/publisher announces "A" but they actually does "B" without any notice.

    This is definitely not a good situation. It is like "We do w/e we want, so just suck it up."

    Without limiting the foregoing, En Masse shall have the right to terminate this Terms of Service with you, effective immediately, and/or terminate or temporarily suspend your access to your Account and/or all or any part of TERA, without notice, in the event of any conduct by you which En Masse, in its sole and absolute discretion, considers to be unacceptable, or for conduct that En Masse believes is a violation of the terms and conditions contained herein or any other policies of En Masse, or for other conduct which En Masse believes, in its sole and absolute discretion, is harmful to En Masse, other TERA users, or third parties. En Masse reserves the right to deny any account registration and to deny access to TERA to any individual.
  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    What would make sense to people: banning off the obvious abusers, getting rid of the oneshotters, obvious botters, or banning off anyone who may or may not be using a 3rd party program when playing their game?

    Even the allowing (and disallowing of people) of people to play the game is actually part of an elaborate business plan.

    What EME did wasn't a A vs B but rather an A vs similar alternatives with vary degrees (plans that deviate are very common even in games).

    However much, I guess they toned down the punishments too much and we notice it. Most of the temp bans came from people who are partied with an abuser, even though they are not known to use abuses themselves. This arises in the benefit of the doubt that they might not know he is an abuser, thus the temp ban instead of a permanent one. It is not a perfect solution, but at least it doesn't affect some of the legitimate players who actually got banned because they are scapegoated.
    66ECX7NAN7 wrote: »
    kubitoid wrote: »
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    3. Modifying ini file.

    - As most people already knew, there is a plain text file for TERA settings. And by adding/editing those files, people can self-optimize their TERA and/or extent FOV. This does not affect directly player's gameplay so that it is also kind of "for general purpose". And some people argue that it is intended by TERA since it is just a plain text file.
    People are debating whether this is against ToS or not. So we need to be confirmed by GMs.

    from EULA:
    2. Additional Limitations
    ...You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
    F. modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game Client of TERA in any way not expressly authorized by En Masse;

    sadly it doesnt say you can modify ini file coz its obviously is a part of game client. modifying it is EULA violation

    So they will ban you if they find out you did it?

    They can, but unless it is gamebreaking enough they will probably not focus on it as top priority. (Doesn't mean you won't be banned, but the situation is obvious, they needed to get the ones who are ruining the game for the rest first). I personally find the FOV trick as an exploitable command (meaning in some situations you actually get a large advantage you normally shouldn't have) but seriously BHS needs to allow us to have a larger FOV, because some dungeons can get very annoying without a wide enough range, because the endgame content they have developed is not balanced around the default FOV
  • BijuBiju ✭✭✭
    Wouldn't it be dumb to punish someone for the FOV when you can actually get this view below without any modification?
    UQGLFnZ.jpg
    This is an eyefinity setup with 3 Monitor

    This view is built in the game ( as long as you have enough monitors to display it. )
  • aeee98 wrote: »
    However much, I guess they toned down the punishments too much and we notice it. Most of the temp bans came from people who are partied with an abuser, even though they are not known to use abuses themselves. This arises in the benefit of the doubt that they might not know he is an abuser, thus the temp ban instead of a permanent one. It is not a perfect solution, but at least it doesn't affect some of the legitimate players who actually got banned because they are scapegoated.

    First of all, I have never got banned, so I am not complaining EME's action towards me.

    From what I have heard/seen, some people(including a few of my ingame friends) got temporarily banned due to their use of injector. It was not becuase of oneshot or other severe exploit, but because of something related to negotiating, something relate to lockon, etc.
    So, some people got TEMPORARY ban due to "Use of 3rd party program". Not because they were associated with exploiters in the same party.

    Indeed, like @ElinUsagi said
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Without limiting the foregoing, En Masse shall have the right to terminate this Terms of Service with you, effective immediately, and/or terminate or temporarily suspend your access to your Account and/or all or any part of TERA, without notice, in the event of any conduct by you which En Masse, in its sole and absolute discretion, considers to be unacceptable, or for conduct that En Masse believes is a violation of the terms and conditions contained herein or any other policies of En Masse, or for other conduct which En Masse believes, in its sole and absolute discretion, is harmful to En Masse, other TERA users, or third parties. En Masse reserves the right to deny any account registration and to deny access to TERA to any individual.

    I fully understand what ToS says. EME has all the right which also means players has no right. This is called "Unfair Clause". EME can change their rules without pre-announcement, but it has been more than a month, but they still have not changed their announcement.

    And yes, I completely understand that people normally do not care about things that they are not involved at all. Like this Permanent > Temporary ban issue, if it is not affecting their account, they do not care and they will tag ToS to say "suck it up". Indeed, people who got punished will be happy since they didnt get permanent ban as EME's announced.

    I know it would be better to scare people who are interested in unethical programs to get advantage by saying "Permanent Ban". Since it might be able to prevent people thinking of it. However, Rules and ToS are not something like the one between you and your friend/family. They must be considered as "LAW". They should be very obvious and reliable.

    Now, think about this, there are some posts complaning about recent event and lots of people are showing their angers. Why? According to people who tagged ToS, all people just need to suck it up as well unless there is something severe bug or unintended stuff. Then why do people complain? That is because there is something wrong and unfair (like 500 boxes from whole 3 week of participation VS 4-600 box from 30min work) even though ToS keeps saying EME has all the right for everything.

    EME can just say "Punishment will be taken place according to its severity" if they still want to keep their rules hidden. But still their only announcement is "permanent ban" but it is not being fulfilled. You might say this case is different from the event that people are complaining, but they are essentially same thing. ToS says "Suck it up", but people actually do not want to suck it up without any complain. Same for the changes in punishment. EME reduced the degree of punishment without any announcement even 1 month after they took action.

    Indeed, how can you say EME is taking action reliably and correctly if they keep changing their rules without any notice? According to ToS, it is also possible that EME can unban those hackers at any time by any reason because EME has all the right. All we can do is just "suck it up".
  • edited September 2017
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    EME can just say "Punishment will be taken place according to its severity" if they still want to keep their rules hidden. But still their only announcement is "permanent ban" but it is not being fulfilled. You might say this case is different from the event that people are complaining, but they are essentially same thing. ToS says "Suck it up", but people actually do not want to suck it up without any complain. Same for the changes in punishment. EME reduced the degree of punishment without any announcement even 1 month after they took action.

    Indeed, how can you say EME is taking action reliably and correctly if they keep changing their rules without any notice? According to ToS, it is also possible that EME can unban those hackers at any time by any reason because EME has all the right. All we can do is just "suck it up".

    I think you're missing a subtlety of the statements that were made in the first place.

    The first staff comment was that "any player identified as cheating will be [permanently] banned from TERA" [emphasis mine]. Then they also made the comment that no third-party programs are allowed. But they did not say that all use of third-party programs is automatically considered cheating and thus would result in a permanent ban.

    You mentioned:
    JasonTERA wrote: »
    From what I have heard/seen, some people(including a few of my ingame friends) got temporarily banned due to their use of injector. It was not becuase of oneshot or other severe exploit, but because of something related to negotiating, something relate to lockon, etc.
    This displays the sort of evaluation that the GMs are doing on this issue. Using a third-party program can result in a warning/ban, but they consider the intention and nature of the use when deciding the punishment. If your intention was clearly to cheat with a "severe exploit" then you most likely won't get a second chance -- it was obvious to you and everyone that you were cheating. But if you were doing something more subtle that provides an advantage but isn't outright cheating, and you never received any sort of warning before, then they might let you off on a "lesser charge" for now. If you go back and do the same thing again, well, then you'd probably get something worse. But if they ban anyone on the first time offense for using the tool when the effect was not actively disruptive to anyone else, the punishment does not seem to fit the crime. It's still wrong, and you may still be punished, but they never said you'd get permanently banned for that.

    The key point from the original announcement was that people who are using the tools to clearly cheat the system won't get a second chance, and that everyone else should remember these tools aren't permitted. The message obviously wasn't as clearly stated as it should have been, though, since some people (including yourself) interpreted it to mean "any use of third-party anything = permanent ban."
  • @counterpoint quick question...so if the auto negotiating, auto lock, etc (other than one shot hack) are not cheating..then what are those?

    If this is like subtleness as you mentioned.. Does it mean EME doesn't consider those modules not cheating?
  • PixelatorPixelator ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    Beom wrote: »
    @counterpoint quick question...so if the auto negotiating, auto lock, etc (other than one shot hack) are not cheating..then what are those?

    If this is like subtleness as you mentioned.. Does it mean EME doesn't consider those modules not cheating?
    Stuff like the auto negotiation is cheating, just not to the severity of things like memeslash. I'd say not suffering a 10% mark up for your items whilst you're away from keyboard (come on, unless you're nolifing, a significant portion of your time will be spent afk or off the game) gives you an advantage in the market.

    Also, having those modules would imply you're using -that proxy- no? And how do they make sure you're not moonlighting memeslash, if your precious developers are correct about them not having a detection mechanism?

    A temp ban is well deserved.
  • @Pixelator I guess that's what @JasonTERA keeps saying.

    Obviously those modules are "CHEATING" so all of them were supposed to get permanent ban. However, they only got temp ban even though EME said "any player identified as cheating=perma ban"

    All these brought:

    1) EME consider some mild modules as not cheating
    2) EME gave some poeple excuse
    Or
    3) EME thinks like "We have all the right in TERA, so do not doubt us and just suck it up w/e we do according to our rule"
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