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IS the elite status (Subscription) p2w?

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Comments

  • DeadX wrote: »
    no you can't boil them all down to convenience.

    Of course you can. I even gave an example of how you could do it. Nothing you said explains why that isn't the case.
    DeadX wrote: »
    you must not have played any P2W games kid. you can buy items in p2w games stores you CANNOT get in game...not even from other players and they give you a DISTINCT advantage.

    The point was that this is a flawed definition because, at what point do you draw the line? If a publisher releases a store item that gives an advantage and costs 50 bucks, and offers the item in-game, but you have to grind a year for it (not that I'm saying anything in Tera is this extreme), then by that definition of "P2W" it's still not a P2W feature because with enough hard work you can eventually get it without spending a dime. You can think what you want, but I don't share that opinion, sorry. Call me a "kid" all you want, it doesn't magically raise your argument above mine.
    DeadX wrote: »
    tera is NOT P2W, everything in the store can be gotten in game that EFFECTS gameplay. see the difference there? and it doesn't take months of grinding unless you're only playing an hour or so a WEEK. get some experience in what a pay to win game infested with wallet warriors is like sometime.

    I'd absolutely love for you to point out exactly where it was that I made the statement "Tera Online is P2W".
    I did agree that it has a couple of features which, to me, come across as P2W. Mostly the dragons. Because to me, an item which I can either spend 5 hours of my paycheck salary on or 50 hours grinding for in game is a pay to win feature
    DeadX wrote: »
    there IS no 'months of grinding' [filtered] or 'player can just sell emp and buy whatever' since someone else had to farm that whatever

    This is another flawed argument, because as easy as it is for you to say "There's no P2W in this game. Someone had to farm it", someone else could come along and say "The game is P2W, someone had to buy the EMP"
  • ELITE status provides benefits, as it should to merit the cost.

    None of these advantages are so overwhelmingly beneficial that they are needed. In fact, they just recently slightly enhanced them in an effort to make subscription more attractive.

    What would one win, putting money into a primarily PvE game, in any case? Making things faster and easier, so that one could achieve their goals more quickly, so that boredom would set in all the sooner?

    Congratulations on winning, then, I suppose.
  • DeadXDeadX ✭✭✭
    aeyrebaby wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    no you can't boil them all down to convenience.

    Of course you can. I even gave an example of how you could do it. Nothing you said explains why that isn't the case.
    DeadX wrote: »
    you must not have played any P2W games kid. you can buy items in p2w games stores you CANNOT get in game...not even from other players and they give you a DISTINCT advantage.

    The point was that this is a flawed definition because, at what point do you draw the line? If a publisher releases a store item that gives an advantage and costs 50 bucks, and offers the item in-game, but you have to grind a year for it (not that I'm saying anything in Tera is this extreme), then by that definition of "P2W" it's still not a P2W feature because with enough hard work you can eventually get it without spending a dime. You can think what you want, but I don't share that opinion, sorry. Call me a "kid" all you want, it doesn't magically raise your argument above mine.
    DeadX wrote: »
    tera is NOT P2W, everything in the store can be gotten in game that EFFECTS gameplay. see the difference there? and it doesn't take months of grinding unless you're only playing an hour or so a WEEK. get some experience in what a pay to win game infested with wallet warriors is like sometime.

    I'd absolutely love for you to point out exactly where it was that I made the statement "Tera Online is P2W".
    I did agree that it has a couple of features which, to me, come across as P2W. Mostly the dragons. Because to me, an item which I can either spend 5 hours of my paycheck salary on or 50 hours grinding for in game is a pay to win feature
    DeadX wrote: »
    there IS no 'months of grinding' [filtered] or 'player can just sell emp and buy whatever' since someone else had to farm that whatever

    This is another flawed argument, because as easy as it is for you to say "There's no P2W in this game. Someone had to farm it", someone else could come along and say "The game is P2W, someone had to buy the EMP"

    you gave an example of rationalization and false equivalence. sorry, not an example.

    it isn't a flawed definition ROFL. it's an ACCURATE definition, you PAY to WIN. if you DON'T PAY you CAN'T WIN. do you understand simple english? that is the CORE of pay to win kid. you NEED to pay to win, it's not optional, you don't pay, you don't win.

    and lastly...no one else could come along and say someone had to buy the emp lol. buying and selling emp is just as OPTIONAL as everything else. grinding or procuring the top gear is less optional if you want to "win". there are multiple paths to end game gear...even solo and not a cent spent.
  • DeadX wrote: »
    it isn't a flawed definition ROFL. it's an ACCURATE definition, you PAY to WIN. if you DON'T PAY you CAN'T WIN. do you understand simple english? that is the CORE of pay to win kid. you NEED to pay to win, it's not optional, you don't pay, you don't win.
    what a moron
  • DeadXDeadX ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    feminzii wrote: »
    DeadX wrote: »
    it isn't a flawed definition ROFL. it's an ACCURATE definition, you PAY to WIN. if you DON'T PAY you CAN'T WIN. do you understand simple english? that is the CORE of pay to win kid. you NEED to pay to win, it's not optional, you don't pay, you don't win.
    what a moron

    prove me wrong snowflake? no? didn't think so. seems there's another no experience 'gamer' here.
    further enlightenment:


    i have experienced and played multiple pay to win mmo's, you CANNOT win without opening your wallet. you CANNOT gain the advantages other wallet warriors can through in game methods.
  • DeadX wrote: »
    prove me wrong snowflake? no? didn't think so. seems there's another no experience 'gamer' here.
    further enlightenment:

    i have experienced and played multiple pay to win mmo's, you CANNOT win without opening your wallet. you CANNOT gain the advantages other wallet warriors can through in game methods.
    that part is obvious
    the nonsensical and moronic part of your argument is that it is essentially "because I played game X and it was more pay to win than game Y, game Y has no pay to win features"
    and lastly...no one else could come along and say someone had to buy the emp lol. buying and selling emp is just as OPTIONAL as everything else. grinding or procuring the top gear is less optional if you want to "win". there are multiple paths to end game gear...even solo and not a cent spent.

    why can't they? going off your own dumb argument, someone could just as easily say that elite is P2W because the only way to actually obtain it outside an event is by someone swiping their card to buy it. as @aeyrebaby said, it's the exact same thing as you saying that other features aren't pay to win just because someone had to grind the gold. both arguments are equally moronic.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    aeyrebaby wrote: »
    The point was that this is a flawed definition because, at what point do you draw the line? If a publisher releases a store item that gives an advantage and costs 50 bucks, and offers the item in-game, but you have to grind a year for it (not that I'm saying anything in Tera is this extreme), then by that definition of "P2W" it's still not a P2W feature because with enough hard work you can eventually get it without spending a dime. You can think what you want, but I don't share that opinion, sorry. Call me a "kid" all you want, it doesn't magically raise your argument above mine.

    F2P games need to compel you to spend money, it's how they pay the bills. So, obviously, paying will always be the fastest and most convenient way to get places. As a free player, your only value is the time you spend on the game. Which is why they need to nudge you to spend more of it. Talking about lines in terms of "months" or "years" is absurd. 1 year can mean as many as 4000 hours played or as little as 4 minutes. 4000 hours of playing at a high level, doing the hardest and most profitable content at an efficient pace will also yield a different result compared to 4000 hours of only doing low tier content or doing content you can barely complete because you don't have the skill required to breeze through it. Which brings up the actually important question: What is "winning" in Tera? There is no competitive anything any more, so, what are you "winning"? Is it BiS gear? Or is it clearing all dungeons? Is it getting server wide recognition for your skill or is it having the most gold of them all? Some of these would require next to no time to achieve while others will require a lot of time. Some of them can be achieved by paying, others cannot. Tera doesn't simply boil down to a dragon mount, after all.
  • voidyvoidy ✭✭✭✭✭
    Elite is probably the least pay to win element in this game. The daily gift box barely gives anything. The consumable box is nice for the reset scrolls. Everything else can be purchased from a store. Even reset scrolls can be purchased from the vanguard store, but the prices are kinda dumb. Nostrums are from an NPC. The mount's just a regular flying mount. Gold boost is barely applicable anywhere. Teleport's moot thanks to vanguard teleports. Really, it's only good for the doubled dungeon runs.

    If you wanna talk about p2w, bring up the people who sell emp and use the gold to buy VM.
  • SatevaSateva ✭✭
    edited September 2017
    Only thing P2W in game currently are the 2.0 crit dragon mounts. Costumes give no advantage. It's just a visual, it's not P2W if you buy EMP to play dress up, it's P2LC (Pay to look cool)

    There is a burd with a self res buff coming soon as well, also P2W.

    The reason these are pay to win is because:

    -It gives a substantial advantage in combat.
    -Not obtainable in game, Cash shop loot box only
    -RNG so bad on the loot boxes people who crack loot boxes to sell the items for profit(P2W) are forced to sell it at half a million gold making it unobtainable for a good chunk of the population. (100$ EMP might yield one, if you're lucky)

    IMO P2W is when you sell EMP for gold to improve your performance/gear.

    The only thing you can not get in game that comes with elite status is dungeon cool down time reduction for under 65, and double runs for end game content, as well as the elite loot box, which has a very low chance of yielding a P2W gather/storage pet, and gives at best 5 premium alks per day, not a notable advantage.

    Elite status is more just to make your life in game easier and save you a bit of silver on mechant items you would other wise have to purchase if you do not pay subscription, or buy vouchers off P2W players.
  • > @counterpoint said:
    > LilMsQTay wrote: »
    >
    > I'd love a guide on how to farm these in game! If you can link me that then awesome ty.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > BHS's argument (that I don't entirely agree with) is that, because it can be sold on the broker, and thereby F2P players can get it without themselves paying anything, it's accessible to everyone. Their secondary argument is that the benefits are negligible over the ones that can be earned in-game in the first place (and things like 1%/2% regen is just a convenience that can be achieved via other means).
    >
    > I don't fully-agree with these arguments purely because it opens the door to this conversation, which we shouldn't be having in the first place. But, BHS's view on where the line is is different than where most people here think the line should ideally be. However, compared to other F2P MMO competition, very few come out looking spotless.


    Well they can argue all they want and try and blow glitter smoke up my [filtered], but regardless, if the ONLY way to get those items is from a loot box in the Shop....then it's not accessible to everyone, it's accessible to those who buy the loot boxes and are lucky enough to "win" it.

    I'm sure they make the best bank that way, but that a whole other discussion.

    Oki, well where else can I get a plus 1% hp/mp item? Or a  2% hp/mp, double crit and plus 10 speed for party? Not trying to bust your....I genuinely want to know.
  • I don't personally see it as pay to win. I think it's disgusting that fun quality games can be played absolutely free. I wish more "f2p" games would allow a full subscription model that would totally normalize gameplay to be like any other MMO. (Tera does this.)
    I know there are allot of predatory p2w games out there, it's those I wish that did this. (Subscription) This one isn't like that, (91%).

    Overall I think Tera is balanced a bit to pressure a few transactions made - Very slightly pressured not heavily at all.
    However elite status benefits remove this burden. I think more people should just subscribe, I truly think En Masse has earned the money.

    In conclusion, no I do not feel it is pay to win. I think it should be pay to play, but that failed some time ago. (Sadly). I can't outright say it isn't because everyone has a different opinion on what p2w is. This is mine. Please don't feel the need to attack it.
  • aeyrebabyaeyrebaby ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    TWMagimay wrote: »

    F2P games need to compel you to spend money, it's how they pay the bills. So, obviously, paying will always be the fastest and most convenient way to get places. As a free player, your only value is the time you spend on the game. Which is why they need to nudge you to spend more of it. Talking about lines in terms of "months" or "years" is absurd. 1 year can mean as many as 4000 hours played or as little as 4 minutes. 4000 hours of playing at a high level, doing the hardest and most profitable content at an efficient pace will also yield a different result compared to 4000 hours of only doing low tier content or doing content you can barely complete because you don't have the skill required to breeze through it. Which brings up the actually important question: What is "winning" in Tera? There is no competitive anything any more, so, what are you "winning"? Is it BiS gear? Or is it clearing all dungeons? Is it getting server wide recognition for your skill or is it having the most gold of them all? Some of these would require next to no time to achieve while others will require a lot of time. Some of them can be achieved by paying, others cannot. Tera doesn't simply boil down to a dragon mount, after all.

    which is all absolutely fine and true.

    Like I said, In all of my responses, I've never said "tera is p2w" or "they need to do away with those damned p2w dragons" or anything like that. I have no complaints about either. I simply acknowledged dragons as being much more of a "p2w" feature than elite is.
    DeadX wrote: »
    it isn't a flawed definition ROFL. it's an ACCURATE definition, you PAY to WIN. if you DON'T PAY you CAN'T WIN. do you understand simple english? that is the CORE of pay to win kid. you NEED to pay to win, it's not optional, you don't pay, you don't win.


    Do you have some sort of complex? It's like trying to talk to the old man who always tells you stories about how back in the old days he had to walk 10 miles to school and then go up 20 flights of stairs and how kids nowadays have it easy. You can relax, Mr.Hardcore Gamer. And to then link a 40 minute video on what I imagine is going to be about mmo terminology... who knows, I have no intention of watching it to find out. The bolded part was a sick read btw.
    DeadX wrote: »
    and lastly...no one else could come along and say someone had to buy the emp lol. buying and selling emp is just as OPTIONAL as everything else. grinding or procuring the top gear is less optional if you want to "win". there are multiple paths to end game gear...even solo and not a cent spent.

    @feminzii already explained to you why this argument is dumb so I'll leave it at that. I'll also again stress the fact that me acknowledging certain features of the game as being more pay to win than others does not equate to me making a general statement about the game's cash shop system in entirety.
  • kamizumakamizuma ✭✭✭✭
    not p2w if you don't win
  • If I might add a tid bit of input...

    Rightly said one person.....as an Opinion; It is pay for convenience in that I humbly, I agree.
    • The very same things you can buy from merchants to buff yourself, you get as being elite.
    • You get a much better mount than the beginning mount once you get to velika.
    • Depending on your purpose. You have the convenience of teleportation. Saved locations with the travel Journal. As well as bypassing the need to spend anything on a Pegasus ride you have the village Atlas which grants you that ability to teleport all over the world as you wish. As much as you wish. Note: that comes especially in handy during GVG and world boss hunting, events as pointed out recently
    • There are certain.. cosmetic items that you could exchange through the reward system for being elite should you get high enough reward credentials.
    • Ever so often you might be the lucky jackpot winner through the elite gift box in acquiring massive amounts of T? Feedstock, spellbind, MWA.
    • There are perks to having elite, such as those buffs always being accessible to you.
    Now when it comes to the things in the cash shop that grant you higher stats, Well that would be considered a pay to win feature. However, that depends on how badly you need to have that 16 crit inner wear for your character.

    Sometimes you might get lucky in acquiring things like this through the marketing economy through the trade broker and not even have to spend a dime on the game itself. It really depends on your patience.

    There have been players to say they never spend a dime on the game and have still acquired all the goodies through the trade broker alone.

    Elite Status simply brings more convenience. Spending money on Elite would not be a P2W feature. Spending money on those items in the cash shop to improve your stats would be pay to win.

    However, there is one thing that many players might say to that. You can buy the best of "items" with stat improvement for your character, at the end of the day, it all depends on how well you can even use your character from the start.

    Just my humble input.
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