Constructive Feedback for EME in Regards to Tera

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  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2
    Jerichow wrote: »
    One of, if not the single biggest reason my friends and I see that Tera can't hold new playeris because it's advertising itself as something that it's not. Tera is a game advertised as an MMORPG, but after playing it for a a few days, or even a few hours - most new players are seeing that this game is in fact, NOT an RPG. It's a true action combat game set in a fantasy world with RPG elements. People come looking for an RPG, when they see that this isn't what they were looking for, they leave.

    The ironic thing about your post and all that follows is that, actually, it seems they're very keenly aware of this issue, but they took the exact opposite approach to solving it. They doubled down on action combat as the key selling point. Consider all the changes they made in the last few years:

    1) The new tutorial map places a greater, more focused emphasis on action combat throughout.
    2) The changes they made to dungeons and the addition of vanguard quests (and phasing out of side-quests) keep a greater emphasis on combat rather that the world/lore/NPCs.
    3) The speeding up of the leveling process (and the option to level via dungeons, BGs, BAMs, etc.) gives people more ways to level through combat.
    4) Crafting was refocused to have basically no use except to support the gearing process either directly or indirectly.
    5) Gear drops simplified during leveling to allow people to level how they chose, rather than being forced into the typical RPG pattern.

    There's basically no side-systems, no deep engagement in the world/lore, just... action combat.

    My conclusion, in seeing the changes they've made over the years, is that they're running in the exact opposite direction of making the game more RPG-like, and explicitly trying to make ti be more like "a true action combat game set in a fantasy world with RPG elements." My guess is that it's because they decided to double-down on their strength rather than spend an enormous amount of time/money shoring up their many weaknesses (some of which you touched upon).

    For this reason, although the feedback is constructive, I think it's an extremely tough hill to climb to convince the very top people at BHS to change the game's development direction that will affect all markets worldwide. Most of these decisions were probably made supported by various forms of retention data/metrics that we unfortunately don't have. And even if they did agree conceptually, it would likely take a year or more before the effects of any such course correction would be felt. Will they think the game too old now to warrant such a dramatic re-imagining to "bring the RPG back"? (A more fundamental question, perhaps, what even is their vision for TERA five years from now? Do they have one?)

    I do think some of TERA's biggest problems are vision-related; namely, the lack of a clear vision and effective focus. They've got too small a team to pretend they can be all things to all people, and spent too much time doing all things poorly. But even if they do cast a vision and make it clear, I think it's likely this will leave some players behind realizing that BHS's vision doesn't align with what they want in a game. That would be painful, but at the same time, may be the only path forward for the long run.

    Anyway, it was an interesting read, even if I didn't entirely agree with some of the specific suggestions.

    if they are so adamant about tera being action combat game and slowly killing the lore, then they should just make everyone level 65 at the start and then as we play through the game we get better and better gear.

    Maybe not 65 at the start, but look at all EME's other games: no open world, just lobbies and instances with a focus on combat. (Sort of like Phantasy Star Online used to be? Haven't played the new one, but I assume it's the same.)

    Sadly, for those doing end-game content, the game has turned to be an instance based game instead of an open world game.

    This is one of the things why I left Vindictus and it's sad Tera became that, an instance based MMORPG.
  • FRSTYFRSTY ✭✭
    Huge open-world action combat brought me to this game and is what I like about it, but the more time goes by the farther away they get from the open-world. And tbh, as of right now I have no single clue of how it could be improved upon.
  • 6HDANDTPAY wrote: »
    Huge open-world action combat brought me to this game and is what I like about it, but the more time goes by the farther away they get from the open-world. And tbh, as of right now I have no single clue of how it could be improved upon.

    that's what made me fall in love with tera, and the things that made me love it, they removed them. iod, farming mobs and bams for drops, low level cs, alliance territories, account bound mounts, and so on. much could be improved on by putting back into the game what they removed. that would be a start.
  • FRSTYFRSTY ✭✭
    Another thing that made me get hooked on this game was back when IoD was the starting place you’d always see higher levels helping people out and I would be like “damn, I wanna look like that guy,” “that’s a cool mount he has,” etc.
    With Stepstone Isle you can’t see any of that, and it’s quite sad.
  • ViauxiViauxi ✭✭✭
    edited January 2
    I will give you credit OP, I know you are aware there is like a 0 percent chance that your feedback will get through to EME let alone BHS, and bring bout some real change. Yet you still type up an essay of feedback in the hopes that something will change.
    But it is hopeless. This game (along with the mmo genre in general) is on it's death bed at the complete fault of developer incompetence (because of course it is). As someone who has played Tera religiously since it was a P2P game, I have witnessed this game completely change into something much worse and much more shallow in a remarkably short period of time.
    This game can be so much more right now. It could be a REAL role model in the industry, like Warframe. An example of how to properly make a modern and unique mmorpg. But it instead went down the path of least resistance, the path of corporate greed and lazy development, Opting to sacrifice long-term player loyalty and company/game reputation for the sake of a quick buck.



    And it was, for a short time (the period between the WHHM and FoE: Bythismal Rise eras) this game was up there, it was damn near competing with the biggest names in the genre. But then it fell off so fast. Tera is a hidden gem that sparkled just briefly, but never got a chance to truly shine.

    Instead of reinforcing the leveling experience, they nerf BAMS so many times I lost count, removing their relevance and unique appeal entirely from TERA. They add Avatar weapons to insure the destruction of the early-game dungeon / questing / learning experience. Hint: There is no experience anymore.

    They simplify / stupefy the leveling process to absurd lengths, forsaking all open world exploration for the sake of reaching """endgame""" as fast as humanly possible.

    Instead of adding new CONTENT like actually expanding the Northern Arun region, they add more and more worthless spinoff classes that no one asked for, in order to make a quick buck with little effort. Hint: Making 50 arbitrary new classes LITERALLY never boosts a game's playerbase or get veterans to return in any significant capacity. Ever. Stop doing this. Seriously. Expansions will bring new players, not new class fodder for your cash shop whales to reroll to.

    There is no player driven game economy, there is no meaningful crafting or gathering, there are no extracurricular activities like fishing, farming, bounties, or hunting. Just queue for the same tired dungeons and/or farm literally 150-300+ IoD bams a day, Just to fail your RNG enchant and waste your time. Oh you passed it? Grats, your reward now is: Do it again.

    Then the slow takeover of lolicon in this game. Jesus Christ, I don't mind loli but even I can't take this game seriously anymore. I don't even want to be seen by my friends playing a game with a bunch of tiny little girls in bikinis and maid outfits running around wit their ear-piercing voices. I thought Blade and Soul was the ultimate lolita fantasy game but Tera beats that game by a country mile at this point.

    Witnessing the invasion of lootboxes in the cash shop for the 5% of the playerbase who will actually waste $$$$ on literally nothing. Seeing the addition of the tier spending system they adopted from Aeria Games and Nexon. Watching my very own guildies openly chat about how they just straight up "Pay2win sell costumes to +15", then they go on the forum and claim "This game isn't p2w" to free players; You seriously have GOT to be kidding me.

    What is PvP and Alliance again? Oh yeah...that existed. At one point.

    Wasting resources on a mobile version instead of improving the real game (hear that whales? This is where your money went to.) But hey don't forget the console gamers, gotta milk them dry too before the game falls out or relevance completely, just like they are doing with PUBG..

    And now they are adding class awakenings to this game. Yay. This game is just another generic Korean mmo at this point, where all they do is add 50 new worthless classes and awaken their skills 7 times over, then making a mobile/console version with whale money.

    Just more power creep, just more recycled content, just more unbalanced talent system [filtered], just more shallow grind, just LESS of the same. Just MORE ranting by salty airheads like me.



    I'm not going to go into all this again, This is only a fraction of the horrible decisions I have witnessed in this game. I have made my fair share of posts over the years trying to point out fundamental flaws to the developers, and clearly not a single bit of meaningful feebback was taken...by anyone. Trying to communicate anything to a Korean corporation is worse than banging your head against a steel wall. All I can do nowadays is be extremely bitter, wondering what would the game be like if I was the lead director of it instead, maybe if I was Korean and could speak more directly to the devs there would be more of a chance of change, but who am I kidding. This game is a shell of the shell it used do be and that is the sad reality that I accepted a long time ago, all I need to do is move on but it's so hard. This game is dead to me as it is now, and with the turn of the new year I think it's time I abandon hope and close the book on Tera forever, there is no happy ending (for me anyways). It is now 2018, this is all just getting old.

  • vkobevkobe ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Jerichow wrote: »
    One of, if not the single biggest reason my friends and I see that Tera can't hold new playeris because it's advertising itself as something that it's not. Tera is a game advertised as an MMORPG, but after playing it for a a few days, or even a few hours - most new players are seeing that this game is in fact, NOT an RPG. It's a true action combat game set in a fantasy world with RPG elements. People come looking for an RPG, when they see that this isn't what they were looking for, they leave.

    The ironic thing about your post and all that follows is that, actually, it seems they're very keenly aware of this issue, but they took the exact opposite approach to solving it. They doubled down on action combat as the key selling point. Consider all the changes they made in the last few years:

    1) The new tutorial map places a greater, more focused emphasis on action combat throughout.
    2) The changes they made to dungeons and the addition of vanguard quests (and phasing out of side-quests) keep a greater emphasis on combat rather that the world/lore/NPCs.
    3) The speeding up of the leveling process (and the option to level via dungeons, BGs, BAMs, etc.) gives people more ways to level through combat.
    4) Crafting was refocused to have basically no use except to support the gearing process either directly or indirectly.
    5) Gear drops simplified during leveling to allow people to level how they chose, rather than being forced into the typical RPG pattern.

    There's basically no side-systems, no deep engagement in the world/lore, just... action combat.

    My conclusion, in seeing the changes they've made over the years, is that they're running in the exact opposite direction of making the game more RPG-like, and explicitly trying to make ti be more like "a true action combat game set in a fantasy world with RPG elements." My guess is that it's because they decided to double-down on their strength rather than spend an enormous amount of time/money shoring up their many weaknesses (some of which you touched upon).

    For this reason, although the feedback is constructive, I think it's an extremely tough hill to climb to convince the very top people at BHS to change the game's development direction that will affect all markets worldwide. Most of these decisions were probably made supported by various forms of retention data/metrics that we unfortunately don't have. And even if they did agree conceptually, it would likely take a year or more before the effects of any such course correction would be felt. Will they think the game too old now to warrant such a dramatic re-imagining to "bring the RPG back"? (A more fundamental question, perhaps, what even is their vision for TERA five years from now? Do they have one?)

    I do think some of TERA's biggest problems are vision-related; namely, the lack of a clear vision and effective focus. They've got too small a team to pretend they can be all things to all people, and spent too much time doing all things poorly. But even if they do cast a vision and make it clear, I think it's likely this will leave some players behind realizing that BHS's vision doesn't align with what they want in a game. That would be painful, but at the same time, may be the only path forward for the long run.

    Anyway, it was an interesting read, even if I didn't entirely agree with some of the specific suggestions.

    if they are so adamant about tera being action combat game and slowly killing the lore, then they should just make everyone level 65 at the start and then as we play through the game we get better and better gear.

    Maybe not 65 at the start, but look at all EME's other games: no open world, just lobbies and instances with a focus on combat. (Sort of like Phantasy Star Online used to be? Haven't played the new one, but I assume it's the same.)

    Sadly, for those doing end-game content, the game has turned to be an instance based game instead of an open world game.

    This is one of the things why I left Vindictus and it's sad Tera became that, an instance based MMORPG.

    instance can work, for exemple the first guild war

    the problem with tera it is they remove content, it hurt a lot tera and break our heart
  • YordaddyYordaddy ✭✭
    edited January 2
    @Jerichow thanks for taking time to write this, but even though I agree in most points, I think your post does the opposite than help improve the game.

    You ask too much from a weak development/publishing team and some of the stuff (i.e. bring back pots) can be attributed as subjective. We see BHS develop other popular games and Enmasse promoting other games which makes obvious that TERA is not a priority.

    I think we should consider that we can ask 1 tiny thing every 3 months and hope to get it, focus our complaints and energy in that one thing, and one step at a time.

    For example, right now, I think we should beg EM to remove RNG cap from gear completely.
    I'd like to see just this tiny thing from Enmasse. Progression should not equal punishment in the altar of p2w.

    Other than this, I would focus attention to bringing Alliance territories back, to enable PvP in otherwise PvE servers like we had before (the idea that we had a major part of the game before and now we don't is ludicrous). The shift to PvP would also boost BGs for otherwise PvE ppl.

    Both requests I list above have to do with end-game only. If you have an active end-game you will have a healthy population. If you have a healthy population you will have an income from game, and if you have an income we can hope that they will channel it to further development.

    So yeah, once I can hope for further development I would love to see this game improve on lower levels. I would like to see Lore emphasis, new races/classes to go with, making use of all these areas being unused and, all the things you mention plus one more:

    Allow optional progression every 10 levels.
    I like to help ppl and guildies in game so I make lots of low level characters but they just level inevitably. If they make it so that I could unlock my next progression I could deliberately keep characters at every lock point (level 20,30,40,50) so I could jump right on my character and run dungeons with them. This would create end-game conditions for every lock-point and further advance the lore since ppl would hang out in lower level areas.
    But this aint' gonna happen cause it involves more than half an hour of development.

    P.S. I created a similar thread not long ago. it had the same result yours will.
    https://forums.enmasse.com/tera/discussion/16223/fixing-the-lore-leveling-endgame#latest

    P.S.2 I would love to play as a Deva race. models and animations are already in game. Imagine the lore twist!

    P.S.3. Nothing personal but I also think you did a poor job @Spacecats. Community manager should find time during holidays to post a couple on the angry barage of posts relating to "no x-mas event" and also wish a happy new year.
  • ArdireArdire ✭✭✭✭✭
    feedback for EME: play your own game for god's sake
  • Thanks for posting this feedback, @Jerichow. You obviously spent a lot of effort on this and I'll do my best to get it in the hands of the TERA development crew.

    A lot of the updates we see for TERA outside of some class balances are really geared for high-end content, but then again a lot of the feedback we get from players is also about 65+ gameplay (which makes sense - most hardcore players spend all their time on max level characters and they're the ones most likely to give feedback). Anyway, it's nice to see suggestions focused on the journey from 1-64.
  • Some comments have been removed from this thread by moderator action because they were either attacking or derailing from the topic. Please keep the forum rules & guidelines in mind when posting!
  • Spacecats wrote: »
    Some comments have been removed from this thread by moderator action because they were either attacking or derailing from the topic. Please keep the forum rules & guidelines in mind when posting!

    HAPPY NEW YEAR SPACECATS AND WELCOME AGAIN!
  • I've never played Tera but was on the PS4 technical test.

    I can fully agree most of this.

    The leveling was extremely fast imo, I did the first zone and ran the first dungeon a couple times and suddenly found myself over leveled for half the Continent and all my quests that I had.

    I wanted to explore every zone and do quests but felt like it was pointless cause quests are grey and I'm 10-20 levels over the zone level. Really bummed me out as like I said I wanted to go zone by zone explore and quest and felt lost as I had no real idea where to go next.

    The rest I really can't comment on as I didn't try it or wasn't around for changes
  • Totally not related but please @Spacecats can we get some feedback over these topics

    this wasn't just a minor change in the game regarding loot tables from dungeons.

    https://forums.enmasse.com/tera/discussion/20367/one-step-forward-two-steps-backwards#latest

    https://forums.enmasse.com/tera/discussion/20368/rg-silver-talents-nerfed#latest

    Thank you!
  • StarkhoeStarkhoe ✭✭
    edited January 3
    Nicely done! I gave you a "like", and I never give people likes. I don`t really agree with most of you're suggesting, but kudos on putting in so much effort. I actually read the whole thing, and its done nicely. So here is my two cent about what you said. Keep in mind though that I am not going to address this as someone that cares about the overall community. I don`t care about newcomers, and I don`t care about veterans. Try not to think of this in terms of "right" or "wrong", simply consider this as a different observation on the things you have said.

    For starter, what you are suggesting is basically not going to happen because you are suggesting a complete rework of WAY too many things which connect to each other as a bundle. That means that you cant have one element alone, you would need all of them to be synced with each other in order for it to make sense as an implement, and I doubt they have enough hamsters to pull this off at this point in time.

    Second. This is just my own opinion, but I don`t think that Tera's lore was ever good enough to demand such close attention to begin with, let alone, becoming something to be prolonged. In fact I would even go as far as saying that for me, Tera's story side of things its mostly just for clicking "yes" on quests. A obligatory hassle. As far as story telling is concerned, perhaps some games get it right, but in Tera I think that it wasn't appealing in the past, its not appealing now, and its not likely to be appealing in the future. Though I will give them props for making Zolyn a lesbian zombie with a hard for wearing too much make up, and for making Paesyn a friend-zoned douche-bag that hits on a girl whose girlfriend died recently. Let that sink in for abit, and then tell me just how "good" Tera is, in terms of story telling. Not even going to get into that guy-girl-hybrid thing at the SG story line. Talk about freaks. Yikes.

    Third. As for leveling.. when it was long, people said its too long. When its fast, people say its too fast. There is no pleasing some people. Leveling is fine, and so is the gear people get for it. Prolonging obligatory means and adding more grinds is NOT appealing imo. You wanna talk about issues while leveling? solo dungeons, story quests without dungeons, that's nothing. If they wanted to change something for the good, then maybe they should change the fact that when you que as a warrior tank, you might end up with a brawler AND a lancer, all in the same party. I`m not sure if this is intentional or not, but I have seen various combos of that. And it sucks imo. Well, to be frank I don`t really care about all the little things, who struggle and who doesn't. I`m just nitpicking because i`m bored. But if BHS/EME cares, then perhaps they can offer a more in depth tutorial for all the fresh level 65 players, one which might solve that learning curve issue (make it optional though!). They can add levels of difficulty to it, and simulate dungeon environments with dummies that "fill in" for whatever classes required. Like, a tank would have to hold aggro, and for that he would get NPC dps that frequently dps. Or a healer could have healing and cleansing challenges. I mean, yeah, its not necessary but if they really wanted people to be THIS hand held, they could do that.

    Forth. In regards to crafting. This isn't EVE. Grinding in a huge open world environment is VERY different from grinding in a relatively low populated game, and in such small enclosures. So If you think that people hogging IOD is bad, wait until you see level 65 players running around Lumbertown, possibly hassling noobs just for crafting mats. People like talking about boundaries, but thats one option, right. Did you put that into you're equation? speaking of which, the Arsenal update gave us the neat illusion that RNG was gone, and now obtaining gear is easier then it has ever been. Many people don`t like this (because they don`t want to see noobs with BiS), but what about people that have a life and a job? do they count in you're equation? now they can actually get BiS gear quickly, and even get to enjoy using it before it gets replaced. My bank slots are already filled with junk and mats I only use for converting into tokens, why the hell would I ever want to start adding Fine Pilka Fibers and freaking Verdra Plant into to that list? no thanks. Enough is enough. I`m glad crafting is simplified now.

    Thats all I really how to say. And, again, I have the upmost respect to you're thread. Its fantastic. If more people made threads like yours, perhaps we might have seen some real changes. But here are some of the things which might also constitute as positive changes worthy of investment, in terms of time and resources (this is for EME, not you).

    1) Better communication with the community. Like, really.

    2) Better optimization. You tell me that they can make Tera console, Elin Gunners, male brawlers, awakening skills, that talisman thing, and NOT have better optimization on a higher place at their priority list? BHS please take the logical course of action here.

    3) Make a personal DPS meter. It won`t kill you.

    4) Provide official side client solutions, or whatever you have to do in order to address ping issues. The more things you fix by yourselves, the more people will start appreciating you. Whatever rules or policies you have to go through to make this happen, nobody cares about that process, find a way to get it done.

    5) As for in-game content. A) Bring back alliance (CU can`t hold a candle to that). B) if you insist on recycling 24/7, you brought back WH at some point, which was cool. But what about RENM/HM? that was a great place. Speaking of fun dungeons, what about a revamped version of KG? (id prefer that over that freaking SF or VOK, any day). Speaking of old dungeons, why don`t you bring back BFTP? (Blast from the Past) it was a great idea imo. Fun, easy, and it promoted positive interaction between the newcomers, and the level 65 players (or was it 60? I don`t remember).

    6) Better events, and more frequently, so the grind feasts won`t feel so boring.

    7) EME, you're forum could use a small personalized blog platform for individual members. Many forums have that, people can write in them without flooding the forums, upload in game pictures or whatever, and it might help to cut down on the amount of people complaining about redundant subjects. Its not a biggy, but it might be neat.
  • ArdireArdire ✭✭✭✭✭
    Starkhoe wrote: »
    Second. This is just my own opinion, but I don`t think that Tera's lore was ever good enough to demand such close attention to begin with, let alone, becoming something to be prolonged. In fact I would even go as far as saying that for me, Tera's story side of things its mostly just for clicking "yes" on quests. A obligatory hassle. As far as story telling is concerned, perhaps some games get it right, but in Tera I think that it wasn't appealing in the past, its not appealing now, and its not likely to be appealing in the future. Though I will give them props for making Zolyn a lesbian zombie with a hard for wearing too much make up, and for making Paesyn a friend-zoned douche-bag that hits on a girl whose girlfriend died recently. Let that sink in for abit, and then tell me just how "good" Tera is, in terms of story telling. Not even going to get into that guy-girl-hybrid thing at the SG story line. Talk about freaks. Yikes.

    reading this gave me a stroke i will personally paypal you money directly if you never post on these forums ever again
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