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community discussion about low performing players

So here's the situation that I have come across. We'll use it as an example, an arch type if you will rather than to hate on some individual.

Just for context, I was running RG on a warrior, frostmetal +0 swords that I pushed up so I can grind out item exp for the rest of the armor more comfortably. It's a second warrior alt so I'm fairly familiar with the class. I had gotten an instance match, a valk and a lancer. So I swap to offense stance and build because, hey lancer. The way the first boss went, the lancer didn't use any buffs, can't hold aggro, didn't take care of any mechanics and did damage on par of a healer that's specifically trying to dps. It left me and the valk chasing the back of the boss, the valk wasn't very experienced as well but we got through it. My damage was basically cut in half in comparison to a working party. Again I'll say that damage comparisons are meant to provide context.

So I shrugged it off and swapped my build to defense stance. I had the crystals and glyphs already set up, but can't afford secondary sword rolls.

The lizard went better, my damage was about the same and the valk's damage shot up 4 times than last boss. The lancer however did the same, didn't read the situation, kept shouting to try to keep aggro, which is a problem in general as if it were someone else who had the correct sword rolls, would actually lower the dps of the person trying to tank, generally being useless or even detrimental. The rest of the dungeon run was like this and I didn't say anything to the lancer.

So to simplify, I met a worryingly bad lancer and compensated the best I could with what I got without bringing it up to the guy.

So the question I want to ask, was this the right thing to do?


We have to assume this Lancer isn't just running one dungeon. The lancer will come across many people. He will keep being a detriment to parties. Is it right not to mention poor performance, or is it right to not mention it and delay it so someone else who's less patient to lay into him? The tank role is an important position. I have to include that this person actively lowers other people's damage potential and generally doesn't contribute any meaningful damage himself. I figure to anyone who can identify him as an issue would become very annoyed.

The most reasonable, possibly usual scenario I could think of is the Lancer would have been kicked and replaced by literally anything else. Since it's RG, no problem for us. If it were KC or SF however, tanks aren't easy to find. It also just passes the Lancer along to some other party to deal with. Also it might give him the idea "they could've said something first" and think we were all toxic or something.

If I were to say anything, chances are the guy would shut down, give the usual responses, call me toxic and elitist, maybe come to the forums and tell you guys about the toxic players etc etc.


So I lay it to the forum. I see a lot of people on the side of anti toxicity, how do we solve these issues that wouldn't just ignore and spread the problem. I think we can't just think that the victim of tongue lashing is always some saint, defensiveness and unwillingness to change or learn is also very toxic and brings out the worst in others. So what can be done?
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Comments

  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Usually when I see a player that is clearly below the average you use to play with, I ask them if they could allow me a couple of minutes of their time after the last boss.

    If they are ok with that I explain what they are doing wrong and how could they improve their performance and if the player is not in a guild I would recommend them to join a guild I know will welcome him and help him to improve.

    If they don't answer or answer in a negative way I just continue with the run and leave him in his own world.

    I think kicking a person from a run, at least on 2 and 3 star dungeons, won't help them to improve at all because they actually needs to play to improve.

    The only thing that will drag down a player to improve is their willingness to do it, they don't need read guides or look at videos at all, they only need to be willing to learn and accept friendly advise from others. If they are not willingly to learn at 2 or 3 star dungeons then just ignore them.
  • edited January 2018
    Basically, there is only one thing you can do:

    Try to give them constructive, specific suggestions about the encounter or things they can try that don't come across as accusatory, personal, or attacking. Remember some people are new, and some people are also having bad days. If they are responsive to the suggestions, great. If not, then move on with your life; complete the run if you can, or accept the drop-out. No matter what MMO I've played, you'll always have some wonky/questionable PUGs with "bad players."

    (And don't low-key or high-key admit to specifically tracking the damage players are doing, particularly not in PUG content. Just talk in generalities about mechanics and principles.)
  • In the case that they speak the same language / actually pay attention to chat (one of my pet peves that people don't actually read chat sometimes), then you can ask if you can give them some feedback. Most players will want to get better at their class, so I'm sure they won't be insulted by you offering feedback or anything.

    On the other hand, if they don't read chat / don't speak the same language, just send them a link from EssentialMana with a guide for their class. That's really all you can do in this case, but you can of course do that for the other case as well. If they follow any class guide on that site (as long as it's relatively up to date) then they'll do fine with their class.

    Short Answer: EssentialMana
  • PixelatorPixelator ✭✭✭✭
    >Queues into Instance Matching knowing it's a bastion of low skilled players
    >Encounters low skilled players
    >Complain about said low skilled players on the forums.

    ???
  • HLK76PFWXTHLK76PFWXT ✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Your party was nice.

    There are hours when the LFG is dead and its best to queue .. which and did and met this cute ninja elin with frostshard that was fortunately using proper crystals and doing crits more or less from behind but not wanting to use nostrum or hopefully canephora/bravery ( there are simple ways to get those without elite ). And at the 3rd boss i asked the ninja if she/he can use a nostrum at least to make it quicker because i was the only one doing damage mostly since i was a brawler and the other was a priest and we were inside there already for 10minutes.. so the ninja said " why would i use consumables for a 2star dungeon.. rofl" then i asked "why not? its always best to make it faster" and i got something like "shut up elitist ahole"

    My brawler has +3sc and i was full on consumables so maybe he thought that i was trying to be rude.. but the thing is that if we consider the time spent in there gold wise then it is very much viable to actually use nostrum/bravery and even a cheap soup that costs 30g at broker and gives +10 crit besides getting proper crystals or hopefully glyphs/etchings ( IOD is so simple these days ) because there is a difference from clearing in 7-10minutes and clearing in 15+ minutes ( some LFG parties even take 5minutes ).

    And for some reason i am getting better KC parties through queue rather than RG these days though the reason could be that one player that is messing around purposely or not has less impact in a 5man party than in a 3man party dps wise..


    p.s. i am not sure how to help players to improve when they fire up so fast whenever the topic arises
  • Pixelator wrote: »
    >Queues into Instance Matching knowing it's a bastion of low skilled players
    >Encounters low skilled players
    >Complain about said low skilled players on the forums.

    ???

    >greentexts out of 4chan

    The discussion is what to do about them, not that they exist.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pixelator wrote: »
    >Queues into Instance Matching knowing it's a bastion of low skilled players
    >Encounters low skilled players
    >Complain about said low skilled players on the forums.

    ???

    Yep, you're proof that people don't read at all.

    Well, that was kinda rude of me yeah but... hey, the topic is not about the complaint, but rather: how to deal with a poorly performing player? Should we teach them, call it out only, or just let it be? That's the issue at hand, not the poor performance, but how to deal with it as a veteran.

    And now to my view on the topic:
    I find it really interesting and productive that you brought this discussion up, as we've just witnessed 2 cases a few days ago of players that had to deal with toxicity from different situations: one of them knowing he was underperfoming but got trashed (may I say it wasn't all one sided also), and the other one apparently wasn't the best but wasn't nearly as bad as made it out to be, also with some attitude issues but not as much. Both dealt with toxicity upon a performance disagreement.

    That's when I will take my stance on the issue along with ElinUsagi (yeah, I agree with him/her a lot and no, it's not cause fellow Elin fan). I do think the best way possible to deal with this, is indeed, calling it out and teaching it as politely as you can without being forced, instead of just letting go.

    During the fight, things never go as cutely as a chat after fight/before it, we're all concentrating on the correct moves and smashing the right keys at the right moment, even on the crappiest dungeons. So it's no wonder that you'll not be able to just go and calmly say the best thing.
    Whoever I think it's also important to call out the wrong decisions during the fight, in case it's something you can only know during such fight specially, like mechanics. Say, the underperforming player is hitting the wrong monster (like monkeys on RG 1st boss), call out what to do. Yes, it will be a shorter "Not these one (character's name)" "These ones" or such. It's nothing special, and can still teach a very valuable information.

    After the fight, you'll have more time to give out the more complete version of the stuff. If you do just say it politely and all, only the worst kind of trash will reply harshly, and those, honestly, aren't welcome to begin with so no issues if we just shoo them away. We don't need to bear the old cancer, no way we would need to bear the new cancer. It's never welcome.
    The cancer ones tho, I would at least bet that are a minority. People that would directly trash you for teaching I mean. If you do start with trashing the noob, it's no wonder if you get all your mud thrown back at you, but then "oh look at this, I tried to teach this idiot and he was cancerous!! I just told him he's completely useless and should die, why he's being cancer! Report now!!". Yeah it does go like this, seen it a lot.

    May I also add that well, I have also met crybabies. People that said they were new, I was all fine and dandy, tried to help and all. Was lead during chat and said to him (tank) straight out that if he was doing anything wrong I would call it on raid notice so he sees easily and all. So I did, tried to teach him about the mechanics, he was dying a lot, kept making the exact same error I told him about (never was I even mad at that, my notes were close to monotone if I may say), and then at one moment he snapped, probably triggered by his own frustration of not managing it and threw a crybaby fit of how he's trying his hardest and all. God I don't even know how I had patience even after/during that fit, tho well I'm human so at one point I got fed up of it too.


    Shortly: I believe it's always better to just teach them before they do meet the cancerous ones. They'll not suddenly learn without any clue. It may not work, but it's always worth a shot. Rarely they'll give you trash, if they do, well report and kick is there for a reason. Do not expect someone to be happy after getting trashed tho, and some may react to their own failures differently than others.
  • Thanks people who are taking the time to read and give their 2 cents on this. I thought it is only fair to add that my intention with making this is actually to indirectly address the forum environment and those who seem to always side against elitism, and the effects it has on not being able to address the issue of bad performance at all. Some people seem to advocate for a FFXIV type system that bans people for telling others how to play so I thought this should be discussed.
  • First off to the OP, I must say well done for being so mature about the situation and not being like most and just be nasty to him.

    Though I'm curious as to how you know so much about your damage and that of others in party without the use of a DPS meter?
    Nothing against people using DPS meters, for personal use I can see it being a very beneficial tool though not something I'd ever use myself.
    But if I see anyone in party referring to it in even the slightest negative way that makes someone else feel bad I will snapshot and report them for harrassment.

    That aside I can only speak for myself on this, everyone got a different way of handling things.
    If someone says to me at end of a dungeon, hey Name (meaning me), are you new to that class or still learning it?
    I'd say well its been a long time since I played it as it's not my main, why you ask?

    Now as long as they are polite and very constructive and explain in great detail why I should use that rotation, then I'm all ears and eager to learn, I know I'll never be the best but always want to try do my best.

    But just saying do this and do that means jack sh*t to me, I want to know why? what benefits it gives? whats so special about that rotation? is it good for a player with totally basic gear? or is it meant for the whales to use?

    I read essentialmana a lot, but most of it I totally ignore because I think, you have the end game gear, so of course those are going to work for you, what about those who have no money, no matts, no enhancements, wheres your guide for them?

    A simple thing until you got enough money, enough matts, to enhance gear enough so you can go kill enough bams to get the tokens to get the new glyphs to reduce their costs, no way do you have enough glyph points to maximise your skills potential.

    So straight off the guides are useless for lower players in that respect, they expect you to already be enhanced and have all the new lower cost glyphs.

    And thats why I want to know everything in very great detail.

    A 2nd point which I think is often overlooked especially by those in the elitest range.
    I often hear most of you say and I quote:
    "go learn the mechanics you f**king piece of sh*t noob"
    "Go read a f**king guide on forum"

    How about you make a new toon, don't do any enhancements, stay exactly as you would be as you hit level 65, and all of you do a party and record a video tutorial as basic players, with basic glyph setups, basic crystals, no 65 crystals as most new players not played enough to go get them, so stay on 55's.

    If you are as good as you make yourself out to be, you should be able to kick a$$ even with the absolute basics, then write up a guide to the video, explaining best way to play like that and how to earn enough money to enhance, what to enhance first, to what stage before next piece of equipment.

    Always remember, you've already learnt all that, a new player hasn't.

    I learn by my own mistakes, I record the dungeons I go in, so I can watch them back and see when and where I'm making the mistakes with my own playing style, as if I watch someone else playing it doesn't help me at all, as most times I wouldn't be in the positions they would be in, about only thing it would help with is the attacks bosses do and at roughly what level they do them.

    But having a write-up guide with the vid would help a lot more.

    To end on this last note, as it's a good analogy in a way.

    I'm quite an advanced computer user. windows, dos, macs, linux, terminals, bit of pascal programming, boot sector analyst, virus/trojan remover etc etc.
    People always ask me what books I read and how I learn what I know?

    I always reply, I read every book that says idiots guide to or dummies guide to, because they are wrote in a way thats expecting you to know nothing, and the better you get at something the more bad habbits you get into, so reading them helps you correct those bad habbits and keep the foundation you built your knowledge on far stronger.

    Most people use microsoft windows, so you say click it, obviously you mean left click, to a mac user that could be totally wrong, thats a bad habbit as you presume and don't explain correctly.

    And yes I am as guilty as most for that, currently teaching people how to use computers at moment as part of some voluntary training, and it's hard when you're dealing with someone who knows nothing, it can be frustrating as hell, but its more so to them as they feel useless already but most times won't admit it, so moment you make them feel like they think the walls go up and anything you could of taught them is lost.

    BE A GOOD TEACHER NOT A BAD DICTATOR

    Passes soapbox to next poster.

    Anyway folks, Happy playing, noobs and elitests alike :)
  • VinyltailsVinyltails ✭✭✭✭
    There isn't really much you can do apart from giving constructive advice, but even that can be met with the "You don't pay my sub noob elitist [filtered] stfu" response.

    The problem is, bad people will always be bad as they don't care about getting better. You can literally throw guides and videos in their face and the baddies will pay 0 attention to it and ignore them completely because they want to play their way. You can't force people to get good, even if you do give advice to someone and they thank you for it...what are the chances that they'll remember/act on it.

    When people want to get good and stop being bad, they'll go looking themselves for guides or asking questions on how to improve...all we can true do is put up with them and attempt to steer them into the right direction and punish (IE: Kick from dungeon) those who are failing to do their job or follow basic dungeon mechanics
  • I sometimes run IMS with guildies, but usually I have a full party within my groups. I don't bother teaching unless I am teaching a guildie in which case they can listen along if they wish. It's usually a waste of effort for my case specifically as I can do much more with my time. If a person wants to get better, they will find a way. Not really a fan of teaching people for the sake of teaching, rather I'll teach or help if there is a genuine desire. If they have to be babied along, they won't play this for long anyways.
  • ArdireArdire ✭✭✭✭✭
    the one thing that confuses me here is that you didn't say anything so how did the lancer know you were trying to actively tank and not just aggressively stealing aggro with your dps? heck if the lancer was that new they might've not even known it was possible for warriors to tank

    other than that, idk. your questions aren't easily answered. majority of folk play this game like it's a solo rpg so when you try to tell them what to do or give advice they absolutely lose it. but then again you might get lucky and meet someone level-headed who genuinely wants to be a contributing member to their party and will really appreciate your advice.

    i'd say take the risk, what's the worst that can happen? they start bad mouthing you and calling you toxic when your intention was just to help? nothing to lose sleep over. it's a personal choice though, it's not up to other folk to educate people (regardless of how entitled some newbies may feel), it's a thing that should be done out of kindness not obligation.
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pixelator wrote: »
    >Queues into Instance Matching knowing it's a bastion of low skilled players
    >Encounters low skilled players
    >Complain about said low skilled players on the forums.

    ???

    That's so not the point the OP was making.

    Here's a rundown, at least as I understood it ( @Satchin , please correct me if I'm wrong here): "Hey, I came across a 'suboptimal' party member. Here's what happened and here's how I handled the situation. Do you guys think it was the right solution?"

    More in line with the aforementioned breakdown, I'm kinda with @counterpoint in that there's no inherent harm in saying something; contrary to popular belief, it is possible to criticize someone and/or their actions and not be a complete d**khole about it. And as was mentioned before, if they're receptive to however you voice said criticisms (within reason, of course), awesome. If not, just go the eff about your business and let them wallow in their ignorance.
  • Ves1978Ves1978 ✭✭✭✭
    if you're in a good mood try to explain to underperforming player what they're doing wrong. if you're in a bad mood, react as you did in this run, don't bother explaining, but don't be a [filtered] as well.
  • TearsongTearsong
    edited January 2018
    Generally I ask the player nicely. Normally you get pretty good responses from new players if you are polite. If they respond poorly or are unresponsive, I just proceed with the run as usual, if we wipe and legit can't get through the dungeon with them (healer/tank) then I kick them. I think, always at least tell them what they're doing wrong, and how they can improve. Not telling them a word doesn't help with learning. I personally also dislike people that tell me/others "just look up a guide". What guide? This one posted in 2014? Which has this gear called starfall? What the hell is that? I'm sure veterans know that lots of guides for this game are out of date. Chances are, you, as a current player, will know more about the game that the guide will say. Also it really helps to be able to ask questions, sometimes the guide doesn't cover this thing that I want to know. What then? Also I can't look up a guide mid dungeon run or whatever, just tell me the basics that I need to know and I'll do my best with that, the other fine details can come later.

    For example, in your situation, I would try to identify the most pressing issue that they are doing wrong - in this case, I'd say not holding aggro (buffs are good but one thing at a time). Then I would've stopped after the first boss and said something like: "<insert name here>, Lancers are generally tanks in Tera, so their primary role is to hold the aggro of the boss. I noticed that in the last boss fight the aggro switched around a lot, if you're having trouble holding aggro, Threatening crystals are a good way to go. But since we're already in a run, would you mind not using your yell skills and letting me tank the next boss?"

    When I was a new player I didn't know what I was doing. This was 4 years ago. I was playing Mystic so it was my fault my party was dying. However, nobody told me anything, the only thing I got was: "omg trap healer" and then kicked from party. I would have appreciated it very much if somebody had *told* me that I needed crystals in this game. Not just calling me a trap and then dropping me from party. I left the game for 2 years after that... The fact that I have remembered it for so long shows how hurtful it was, and nobody should be treated that way.

    After I came back to Tera playing Mystic again, in a Channelworks run after the 2nd boss died, a gunner asked: "do you have the endurance debuff glyph?". I asked them what that was, they patiently told me that it was the glyph on my volley skill and that I should try to keep it up at all times. I got that glyph and did fine in the last boss. I really appreciated this player's kindness and patience, just telling me what I'm doing wrong, something! Anything! I can't improve if I don't know what I did wrong!

    About a week ago I ran into a learning Mystic in KD. I tried to teach them the mechanics. I told them the key things before every boss. We did fine till the last boss. We wiped about 3 times, but finally got through it. The very next IM > matched the same mystic again. This time the party wasn't as good, and it was clear that there was no way we'd be able to clear the dungeon without the healer. The mystic was still making the same mistakes as they did last run, and dying to them. After wiping about 5 times we finally kicked them. No one has infinite time to play the game, it is fair enough to kick them after at least giving them a fair go and chances to practice.

    I was picked up by a party for RKNM on Christmast day, I was playing Mystic and died up to 20 times on the 2nd boss, wiped about 5 times. One of the players was trying to teach me the mechanics, by telling me to stand where they were, to the side of the boss and on the hexagons. I learnt a lot from that run, although I couldn't finish. After an hour or two they told me: "thanks for the run but I think we will find another healer now, I'm sure you'll learn it eventually." I thanked them for putting up with me and left the party, I still occasionally party with one of the people there these days. I am very grateful for them putting up with me and teaching me, even if they had to kick me in the end.

    Two days ago I ran into a learning Priest in RKNM. Kept dying on the 2nd boss, we wiped at least 10 times... I also tried to teach them, telling them to stand on the hexagons, to the side of the boss... they replied with "I know I know I know", sounding very impatient, so I shut up and we continued to wipe. Eventually they dropped the party themselves because they got fed up with it. After that we passed the run with no issues...

    Oh... I got a bit carried away with this post, just scattered thoughts and stories of what I've seen in TERA. I am a duo player with no guild, so it's hard, and I interact with randoms a lot. I appreciate every bit of kindness that falls my way and I try my best to pass that onto other players. I'm sure lots of new and learning players would also appreciate it. I love TERA, it is a great game, I dislike the community a majority of the time though, because of how rude and mean people are. We need more players in TERA to keep it going, it is, after all, a MMO. Lets try not to drive all of the new players away...
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