community discussion about low performing players

2

Comments

  • TearsongTearsong
    edited January 12
    Generally I ask the player nicely. Normally you get pretty good responses from new players if you are polite. If they respond poorly or are unresponsive, I just proceed with the run as usual, if we wipe and legit can't get through the dungeon with them (healer/tank) then I kick them. I think, always at least tell them what they're doing wrong, and how they can improve. Not telling them a word doesn't help with learning. I personally also dislike people that tell me/others "just look up a guide". What guide? This one posted in 2014? Which has this gear called starfall? What the hell is that? I'm sure veterans know that lots of guides for this game are out of date. Chances are, you, as a current player, will know more about the game that the guide will say. Also it really helps to be able to ask questions, sometimes the guide doesn't cover this thing that I want to know. What then? Also I can't look up a guide mid dungeon run or whatever, just tell me the basics that I need to know and I'll do my best with that, the other fine details can come later.

    For example, in your situation, I would try to identify the most pressing issue that they are doing wrong - in this case, I'd say not holding aggro (buffs are good but one thing at a time). Then I would've stopped after the first boss and said something like: "<insert name here>, Lancers are generally tanks in Tera, so their primary role is to hold the aggro of the boss. I noticed that in the last boss fight the aggro switched around a lot, if you're having trouble holding aggro, Threatening crystals are a good way to go. But since we're already in a run, would you mind not using your yell skills and letting me tank the next boss?"

    When I was a new player I didn't know what I was doing. This was 4 years ago. I was playing Mystic so it was my fault my party was dying. However, nobody told me anything, the only thing I got was: "omg trap healer" and then kicked from party. I would have appreciated it very much if somebody had *told* me that I needed crystals in this game. Not just calling me a trap and then dropping me from party. I left the game for 2 years after that... The fact that I have remembered it for so long shows how hurtful it was, and nobody should be treated that way.

    After I came back to Tera playing Mystic again, in a Channelworks run after the 2nd boss died, a gunner asked: "do you have the endurance debuff glyph?". I asked them what that was, they patiently told me that it was the glyph on my volley skill and that I should try to keep it up at all times. I got that glyph and did fine in the last boss. I really appreciated this player's kindness and patience, just telling me what I'm doing wrong, something! Anything! I can't improve if I don't know what I did wrong!

    About a week ago I ran into a learning Mystic in KD. I tried to teach them the mechanics. I told them the key things before every boss. We did fine till the last boss. We wiped about 3 times, but finally got through it. The very next IM > matched the same mystic again. This time the party wasn't as good, and it was clear that there was no way we'd be able to clear the dungeon without the healer. The mystic was still making the same mistakes as they did last run, and dying to them. After wiping about 5 times we finally kicked them. No one has infinite time to play the game, it is fair enough to kick them after at least giving them a fair go and chances to practice.

    I was picked up by a party for RKNM on Christmast day, I was playing Mystic and died up to 20 times on the 2nd boss, wiped about 5 times. One of the players was trying to teach me the mechanics, by telling me to stand where they were, to the side of the boss and on the hexagons. I learnt a lot from that run, although I couldn't finish. After an hour or two they told me: "thanks for the run but I think we will find another healer now, I'm sure you'll learn it eventually." I thanked them for putting up with me and left the party, I still occasionally party with one of the people there these days. I am very grateful for them putting up with me and teaching me, even if they had to kick me in the end.

    Two days ago I ran into a learning Priest in RKNM. Kept dying on the 2nd boss, we wiped at least 10 times... I also tried to teach them, telling them to stand on the hexagons, to the side of the boss... they replied with "I know I know I know", sounding very impatient, so I shut up and we continued to wipe. Eventually they dropped the party themselves because they got fed up with it. After that we passed the run with no issues...

    Oh... I got a bit carried away with this post, just scattered thoughts and stories of what I've seen in TERA. I am a duo player with no guild, so it's hard, and I interact with randoms a lot. I appreciate every bit of kindness that falls my way and I try my best to pass that onto other players. I'm sure lots of new and learning players would also appreciate it. I love TERA, it is a great game, I dislike the community a majority of the time though, because of how rude and mean people are. We need more players in TERA to keep it going, it is, after all, a MMO. Lets try not to drive all of the new players away...
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12
    AnnieClark wrote: »
    First off to the OP, I must say well done for being so mature about the situation and not being like most and just be nasty to him.

    Though I'm curious as to how you know so much about your damage and that of others in party without the use of a DPS meter?
    Nothing against people using DPS meters, for personal use I can see it being a very beneficial tool though not something I'd ever use myself.
    But if I see anyone in party referring to it in even the slightest negative way that makes someone else feel bad I will snapshot and report them for harrassment.

    Wow thanks for proving my paranoia. You're the reason I started kicking people from rk9 IMS without saying anything to them.
    People should know when their dps is really bad, but later on. Because it matters.
    Like you said, I don't see the point at screaming angrily at players who don't have the basic gear/glyphs. I do see a point in saying that a +2 stormcry archer in all the right setups is doing 400 k/s on rk9 (or just say it in the sense of "sorry archer but your dps isn't cutting it).
    Also, there are ways of telling when a person is doing bad dps. Running around the boss aimlessly, having long stops between their rotations, attacking from the sides (ooooh I see this one in rk9 so often because it's real hard to dash away during s-bomb), using basic attacks or generally skills that aren't supposed to be used in an optimal rotation (sorcs and archers using basics, brawlers using meat grinder). All of those are very apparent to me as a healer.
    And unfortunately, you can't suddenly teach a person how to play their class on the last boss of a harder dungeon. So what the hell do I tell them before kicking them that doesn't warrant me a ban? I'm tired of having to think of family friendly and nice, roundabout sentences to not accidentally hurting someones feelings, and I'm the type of person that will always explain and help in ims.
    It's just that I can't help with your dps which is something you have to work on yourself for a while. :shrug:
  • SatchinSatchin ✭✭
    edited January 12
    I pretty much agree with @CornishRex. I would offer to teach just about any class to at least a minimal standard. It's just that nobody asks and people rarely listen. I even had a few who lie to me out of defensiveness, which is funny because it's not easy to make up details about classes to someone who knows how to play that class. Examples, warrior tank told me he followed a guide but didn't use charging slash or poison blade and a ninja told me jagged path extra damage glyph lasted for 10 seconds when justifying their rotation, it's 3.

    On top of that, the witch hunting for 3rd party program users is pretty funny.


    I only make this post after making good attempts at helping people learn, from working with low skilled guilds to giving away free battle solutions and innerwear to low level players to trying to train people up to standard.

    I don't see many people take the time to do this sort of thing, it's smarter to just stick with a guild and make your own network or vet on LFG instead of dealing with low skilled players in the first place. It isn't an issue unless we fear a divide between new players and veterans effecting the community. New players should be the lifeblood of any game. Veterans should be out there teaching new players but the fear or being labeled toxic and having to deal with hard headed new players isn't really worth the headache most of the time.
  • That dungeon needs to be reworked, the machines count too much on all party knowing what to do. This is a lower dungeon and does not need to be that difficult. I suggest they bring back Channel works until ravenous gouge is finally ready to be released.
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭
    TheDarkWan wrote: »
    That dungeon needs to be reworked, the machines count too much on all party knowing what to do. This is a lower dungeon and does not need to be that difficult. I suggest they bring back Channel works until ravenous gouge is finally ready to be released.

    God forbid new players have to use some brain. Because looking at the buff flowers give you when you break them is hard. Because seeing secondary aggro on yourself during second boss is hard. Following what the text on screen says is VERY hard.
    For the love of anything that's sacred PLEASE don't bring back channelworks. RG is fine as is, not only does it teach you some basics about mechanics, it's also completely possible to be soloed by a more skilled players that's carrying the party. And even if you screw up in rg it's not like you will wipe or take forever to clear, it's a cute dungeon for new players.
    Unlike channelworks. Seriously [filtered] that boring gray [filtered] dungeon I've had enough of it.
  • HLK76PFWXTHLK76PFWXT ✭✭✭
    edited January 12
    AnnieClark wrote: »
    How about you make a new toon, don't do any enhancements, stay exactly as you would be as you hit level 65, and all of you do a party and record a video tutorial as basic players, with basic glyph setups, basic crystals, no 65 crystals as most new players not played enough to go get them, so stay on 55's.

    This one threw me off and i felt the urge to add a reply.

    The issue is not the fact that most of the fresh players do not have the basic things and they do not perfom enough with us "the elitist jerks with stormcry expecting too much" and we do not understand that because we play the easy mode.. but entirely because they do not have any basic thing at all. And what this means? Exactly what it says.. most of the fresh players do not even bother to understand how important is to back crit bosses in RG/KC that are ever so easy to back crit while at the same time they also do not even have proper crystals equipped ( bitter/savage/focused/etc ) whether they are cruxes or not. On top of that, they rarely use nostrum at RG at least since KC will not open the door if the players do not have it and they also do not use bravery though its super easy to get both nostrum/bravery. At this point, i am not even going to talk about cheap glyphs/etchings from IOD or even a decent rotation.. because this is already hopeless from this point.. but we keep trying and ask players to get helped since nothing will change if we do not do that.

    And in my opinion.. it does not matter what kind of language we use or what kind of words because most of the fresh players feel somehow like they are thrown out of their comfort zone suddenly having to do this and that instead of sitting back and relax regardless of their performance.. which most likely leads to the harsh replies from them since we are suddenly the oppressors..


    So how to teach the fresh players about the ropes of this game when this happens? Ask EME kindly to deliver a pack of goodies at level 65 made of x100 nostrum, x10 bravery, x4 offensive/defensive crystals proper for the class, x5 goddess? etc? And hope that the players will actually use them? Add a small explanation at the message of the day about how back crit works and why it is important to do it?




    By the way.. maybe the elitist jerks are being seen as a crows chopping on the poor fresh players at 2 star dungeons but the funny thing is that the fresh players would actually wipe both at KC/RG considering their own performance and the mechanics of the dungeons if the elitist jerks would not queue for the vanguard dailies.. and at that point they would be forced to either learn and improve or give up completely on doing the said dungeons.
  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12
    The biggest problem about low performing players, is the bulk majority of them don't even know they are low performing. And it gets annoying. I grew up from being an actual scrub so I know how it felt to be mistreated and misinformed as a newbie, and I have played the game long enough and done enough end-game content despite having multiple hiatuses to explain what I said.

    Even if DPS meters are legalised, newbies will not believe their damage is very low. Most people complained that "it must be the gear" when the truth is their rotations were really bad to begin with. It is not okay to leave them at that. Regardless, newbies have different mindsets. Some want to improve, some want to be status quo, and they think they are good enough. This remains true even amongst veterans, let's be honest even some of the old players are performing worse dps-wise and mentality-wise compared to some of the newer players.

    The "status quo" people are really the ones that make veterans give up on teaching newbies the entire time. It is tiring to teach people when they think they are right when they are far from the truth. Even if a person is willing, said player may not have the aptitude (poor reaction time, nerve issues, horrible lag) for it. If veterans can't even get these players to a standing where it is at least acceptable to the majority of players, how are you expecting them to breed new end-game players?

    Also note that not everyone has the patience to sugarcoat things. If I tell someone to teach their unskilled guildie how to play their class, I mean it usually. Not many will be nice and go "yo you need to get better" and stuff when they do less damage than a non-dps-spec mystic, because as much as the truth hurts, the painful way is always the fastest way to realise your shortfalls. It is not about doing homework for dungeons and stuff, that is not as important as knowing your identity as a player and the damage you are expected to output. I used to sugarcoat stuff but I don't anymore, because there is no point to it.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭
    I really would like to emphasize a point that was brought upon here: Many don't know they're underperforming at all.

    Take the leveling experience. You see something that moves, you hit it, if it gives you a damage counter, keep hitting till it dies. Congrats! You've gotten EXPERIENCE POINTS. It's funny how it's even called that. Now if you check it out, the game has quite the exponential learning curve. You come from... well what I just said, about hitting aimlessly anything with just the random junk you had and you're doing good cause oh my god avatar weapons!! And... Then you drop into a world of checking where to hit the boss, when, when to stop, where to stand, when to stand where, when to avoid or else you're dead in one hit, what to never hit and what to hit as fast as possible, and what is even the best way to kill faster.

    Think of the importance of rotations in leveling.
    I'll tell ya bluntly: 0. Nothing. Nada. Nanimo. Ei Mitään. It's entirely insignificant if you're just auto-attacking or you're making the "by the manual" optimized rotation to your class. You may get into a party on a dungeon with no tank, where everyone is running madly around the boss, healer keeps people alive cause how hard is it to die on leveling dungeons, and you're doing the top tier rotation at the back of the boss, while that one OP class of the patch auto-attacks and does the SAME DPS as you, cause... hohohooo 3 levels of difference and Avatar weapon. It all just really nullifies the importance of any learning.

    Now, you drop directly into that world of knowing what to do. "But hey, come on I've always done this and everyone was happy on the party!!" And sure he's right. It's been like this on leveling, but well, now the auto-attacking and not avoiding hits are literally only a tad better than AFKing. The healers DPSing are crap, the tankers don't just aimlessly hit whatever whenever and don't bother with avoiding cause the shield/block was doing fine. How will a new player ever know he's not doing well?
    He just did what he always did and was good. Now he's suddenly dying all the time. What is his conclusion? Gotta stop dying. I'm doing DPS but I'm dying, that's what I should fix. Well, newbie learns avoiding hits. He stops dying. But yeah he's as good as a Thrall there. On his own mind, he's doing fine, he's doing DPS and not dying! What else is there to do? Then... yeah he's sucking and gets trashed. That's why I can't really get mad at side hitters and such that do terrible DPS. It's only normal. Never were they told what's their DPS and what even is a good DPS. They hit, things die, that should be fine right?

    This is why, I do think that players should indeed get taught about those stuff. Simply because there would otherwise be no way for them to ever know it's bad/wrong if they're not dying. They will be expected to do some level of performance, and I'm sure not against expecting this (specially because in some cases it's downright impossible to clear a dungeon without meeting some DPS goals on shields and such), but they should have some base to even know they're underperforming and what should they even do to stop underperforming.

    "but you get X crystals from quests! There's no excuse to not use them" yeah.... But then go and read the Pounding ones. They do flat damage increase for ANY monster. How come can that be a bad crystal? Flat damage to anything! Going for full power instead of crits too, how would any new guy ever figure out the crit/power balances and to just NOT use pounding ones despite looking so convenient? When is the boss enraged and how is a crystal that works only during enrage phase better than another one that is constant effect? What is better, having crit power or power always? Crit power looks better but only works during crits... Too many things for newcomers to figure out, and too many things MAY be outdated in guides too. But then back at the point: when would they ever figure out, that they do need to read any such guide? Even with in-game DPS meters (which I kinda agree), what is a good DPS for the class and gear set? Why same gear sets are making less damage?


    TL;DR: the game is filled with an insane amount of variables that no newcomer would ever know, and they would never know they're not doing well if they're not told so. Expecting good performance is fine/required, but they should have a way to even know how to reach those goals or that they need to reach them.
  • LaemieLaemie ✭✭
    edited January 12
    Maybe they can put in some short-useful lines on the loading screens if theyre able to :/ Like:

    "Attacking from behind is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Using backcrit crystals is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Threatening red crystal is useful for tanks"
    "Hardy blue crystal is the best for defense"
    "Always read the message on your screen inside dungeons"
    "Blue aggro means something special, watch out for that"
    "Some attacks cant be dodged (Iframed) or blocked"
    "Dodging skills usually give iframe that makes you invulnerable for a second"

    Etc etc etc... That sure helps better than the ones we're currently have..
  • What if there was an independent list for each player, not shown to the party, at the end of each dungeon that showed your dps and an average dps of others of your class and your gear score? It could have a list of your most used skills and how much damage they did.

    Then it could have a link to essential manna for tips.

    Its not like En Masse doesn't know about these, kritika does it.

    This would mean essential manna has to be updated though...
  • counterpointcounterpoint ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13
    Meshak wrote: »
    What if there was an independent list for each player, not shown to the party, at the end of each dungeon that showed your dps and an average dps of others of your class and your gear score? It could have a list of your most used skills and how much damage they did.

    Yes, this sort of "personal performance indicator" (with some sort of barometer to measure against) is the best compromise I've heard proposed in multiple MMOs trying to find the right balance for this topic. Most people do generally want to know how they're doing, but they'd feel more comfortable having a system tell them that privately (and give them an average to compare against) than to be shamed by other members of the party. With this sort of system, you could also calibrate it to the encounter over time by leveraging "big data," so that it would take into consideration mechanics that might impact your "score."

    Now the only thing is to convince TPTB to program this sort of feature. I believe BHS did actually allude at one point that they were considering adding something, though. We'll see.
  • Laemie wrote: »
    Maybe they can put in some short-useful lines on the loading screens if theyre able to :/ Like:

    "Attacking from behind is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Using backcrit crystals is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Threatening red crystal is useful for tanks"
    "Hardy blue crystal is the best for defense"
    "Always read the message on your screen inside dungeons"
    "Blue aggro means something special, watch out for that"
    "Some attacks cant be dodged (Iframed) or blocked"
    "Dodging skills usually give iframe that makes you invulnerable for a second"

    Etc etc etc... That sure helps better than the ones we're currently have..

    This one is a great idea actually because at least in my early days of Tera i always used to read the tips from the loading screens.
  • Laemie wrote: »
    Maybe they can put in some short-useful lines on the loading screens if theyre able to :/ Like:

    "Attacking from behind is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Using backcrit crystals is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Threatening red crystal is useful for tanks"
    "Hardy blue crystal is the best for defense"
    "Always read the message on your screen inside dungeons"
    "Blue aggro means something special, watch out for that"
    "Some attacks cant be dodged (Iframed) or blocked"
    "Dodging skills usually give iframe that makes you invulnerable for a second"

    Etc etc etc... That sure helps better than the ones we're currently have..

    When you log in, there's a popup that tells you what crystals to use and what skills to use based on your class, maybe you can add those lines there as well. I love the idea of putting sentences like this on the loading screen though. Bombard players w/ these tips on the loading screen until 65 or if they're entering a dungeon.
  • ezpc, we need ingame dps meter
  • GelosGelos ✭✭
    ElinLove wrote: »
    I really would like to emphasize a point that was brought upon here: Many don't know they're underperforming at all.

    Take the leveling experience. You see something that moves, you hit it, if it gives you a damage counter, keep hitting till it dies. Congrats! You've gotten EXPERIENCE POINTS. It's funny how it's even called that. Now if you check it out, the game has quite the exponential learning curve. You come from... well what I just said, about hitting aimlessly anything with just the random junk you had and you're doing good cause oh my god avatar weapons!! And... Then you drop into a world of checking where to hit the boss, when, when to stop, where to stand, when to stand where, when to avoid or else you're dead in one hit, what to never hit and what to hit as fast as possible, and what is even the best way to kill faster.

    Think of the importance of rotations in leveling.
    I'll tell ya bluntly: 0. Nothing. Nada. Nanimo. Ei Mitään. It's entirely insignificant if you're just auto-attacking or you're making the "by the manual" optimized rotation to your class. You may get into a party on a dungeon with no tank, where everyone is running madly around the boss, healer keeps people alive cause how hard is it to die on leveling dungeons, and you're doing the top tier rotation at the back of the boss, while that one OP class of the patch auto-attacks and does the SAME DPS as you, cause... hohohooo 3 levels of difference and Avatar weapon. It all just really nullifies the importance of any learning.

    Now, you drop directly into that world of knowing what to do. "But hey, come on I've always done this and everyone was happy on the party!!" And sure he's right. It's been like this on leveling, but well, now the auto-attacking and not avoiding hits are literally only a tad better than AFKing. The healers DPSing are crap, the tankers don't just aimlessly hit whatever whenever and don't bother with avoiding cause the shield/block was doing fine. How will a new player ever know he's not doing well?
    He just did what he always did and was good. Now he's suddenly dying all the time. What is his conclusion? Gotta stop dying. I'm doing DPS but I'm dying, that's what I should fix. Well, newbie learns avoiding hits. He stops dying. But yeah he's as good as a Thrall there. On his own mind, he's doing fine, he's doing DPS and not dying! What else is there to do? Then... yeah he's sucking and gets trashed. That's why I can't really get mad at side hitters and such that do terrible DPS. It's only normal. Never were they told what's their DPS and what even is a good DPS. They hit, things die, that should be fine right?

    This is why, I do think that players should indeed get taught about those stuff. Simply because there would otherwise be no way for them to ever know it's bad/wrong if they're not dying. They will be expected to do some level of performance, and I'm sure not against expecting this (specially because in some cases it's downright impossible to clear a dungeon without meeting some DPS goals on shields and such), but they should have some base to even know they're underperforming and what should they even do to stop underperforming.

    "but you get X crystals from quests! There's no excuse to not use them" yeah.... But then go and read the Pounding ones. They do flat damage increase for ANY monster. How come can that be a bad crystal? Flat damage to anything! Going for full power instead of crits too, how would any new guy ever figure out the crit/power balances and to just NOT use pounding ones despite looking so convenient? When is the boss enraged and how is a crystal that works only during enrage phase better than another one that is constant effect? What is better, having crit power or power always? Crit power looks better but only works during crits... Too many things for newcomers to figure out, and too many things MAY be outdated in guides too. But then back at the point: when would they ever figure out, that they do need to read any such guide? Even with in-game DPS meters (which I kinda agree), what is a good DPS for the class and gear set? Why same gear sets are making less damage?


    TL;DR: the game is filled with an insane amount of variables that no newcomer would ever know, and they would never know they're not doing well if they're not told so. Expecting good performance is fine/required, but they should have a way to even know how to reach those goals or that they need to reach them.

    this is exactly how I play; It took my 3 years or better to figure out how to I could move around mobs( and i still forget) so i just do my little solo dungeons at 65 and grind mobs .I am a mouse clicker hitting buttons I dont usually think about. although lately i have been trying to remember to hit the skill buttons and not so much spacebar. I still havent figured out how to use my skill bar for a whole lot of stuff . So i do the very basic rotations(?)
2
Sign In or Register to comment.