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community discussion about low performing players

2

Comments

  • SatchinSatchin ✭✭
    edited January 12
    I pretty much agree with @CornishRex. I would offer to teach just about any class to at least a minimal standard. It's just that nobody asks and people rarely listen. I even had a few who lie to me out of defensiveness, which is funny because it's not easy to make up details about classes to someone who knows how to play that class. Examples, warrior tank told me he followed a guide but didn't use charging slash or poison blade and a ninja told me jagged path extra damage glyph lasted for 10 seconds when justifying their rotation, it's 3.

    On top of that, the witch hunting for 3rd party program users is pretty funny.


    I only make this post after making good attempts at helping people learn, from working with low skilled guilds to giving away free battle solutions and innerwear to low level players to trying to train people up to standard.

    I don't see many people take the time to do this sort of thing, it's smarter to just stick with a guild and make your own network or vet on LFG instead of dealing with low skilled players in the first place. It isn't an issue unless we fear a divide between new players and veterans effecting the community. New players should be the lifeblood of any game. Veterans should be out there teaching new players but the fear or being labeled toxic and having to deal with hard headed new players isn't really worth the headache most of the time.
  • That dungeon needs to be reworked, the machines count too much on all party knowing what to do. This is a lower dungeon and does not need to be that difficult. I suggest they bring back Channel works until ravenous gouge is finally ready to be released.
  • HLK76PFWXTHLK76PFWXT ✭✭✭
    edited January 12
    AnnieClark wrote: »
    How about you make a new toon, don't do any enhancements, stay exactly as you would be as you hit level 65, and all of you do a party and record a video tutorial as basic players, with basic glyph setups, basic crystals, no 65 crystals as most new players not played enough to go get them, so stay on 55's.

    This one threw me off and i felt the urge to add a reply.

    The issue is not the fact that most of the fresh players do not have the basic things and they do not perfom enough with us "the elitist jerks with stormcry expecting too much" and we do not understand that because we play the easy mode.. but entirely because they do not have any basic thing at all. And what this means? Exactly what it says.. most of the fresh players do not even bother to understand how important is to back crit bosses in RG/KC that are ever so easy to back crit while at the same time they also do not even have proper crystals equipped ( bitter/savage/focused/etc ) whether they are cruxes or not. On top of that, they rarely use nostrum at RG at least since KC will not open the door if the players do not have it and they also do not use bravery though its super easy to get both nostrum/bravery. At this point, i am not even going to talk about cheap glyphs/etchings from IOD or even a decent rotation.. because this is already hopeless from this point.. but we keep trying and ask players to get helped since nothing will change if we do not do that.

    And in my opinion.. it does not matter what kind of language we use or what kind of words because most of the fresh players feel somehow like they are thrown out of their comfort zone suddenly having to do this and that instead of sitting back and relax regardless of their performance.. which most likely leads to the harsh replies from them since we are suddenly the oppressors..


    So how to teach the fresh players about the ropes of this game when this happens? Ask EME kindly to deliver a pack of goodies at level 65 made of x100 nostrum, x10 bravery, x4 offensive/defensive crystals proper for the class, x5 goddess? etc? And hope that the players will actually use them? Add a small explanation at the message of the day about how back crit works and why it is important to do it?




    By the way.. maybe the elitist jerks are being seen as a crows chopping on the poor fresh players at 2 star dungeons but the funny thing is that the fresh players would actually wipe both at KC/RG considering their own performance and the mechanics of the dungeons if the elitist jerks would not queue for the vanguard dailies.. and at that point they would be forced to either learn and improve or give up completely on doing the said dungeons.
  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12
    The biggest problem about low performing players, is the bulk majority of them don't even know they are low performing. And it gets annoying. I grew up from being an actual scrub so I know how it felt to be mistreated and misinformed as a newbie, and I have played the game long enough and done enough end-game content despite having multiple hiatuses to explain what I said.

    Even if DPS meters are legalised, newbies will not believe their damage is very low. Most people complained that "it must be the gear" when the truth is their rotations were really bad to begin with. It is not okay to leave them at that. Regardless, newbies have different mindsets. Some want to improve, some want to be status quo, and they think they are good enough. This remains true even amongst veterans, let's be honest even some of the old players are performing worse dps-wise and mentality-wise compared to some of the newer players.

    The "status quo" people are really the ones that make veterans give up on teaching newbies the entire time. It is tiring to teach people when they think they are right when they are far from the truth. Even if a person is willing, said player may not have the aptitude (poor reaction time, nerve issues, horrible lag) for it. If veterans can't even get these players to a standing where it is at least acceptable to the majority of players, how are you expecting them to breed new end-game players?

    Also note that not everyone has the patience to sugarcoat things. If I tell someone to teach their unskilled guildie how to play their class, I mean it usually. Not many will be nice and go "yo you need to get better" and stuff when they do less damage than a non-dps-spec mystic, because as much as the truth hurts, the painful way is always the fastest way to realise your shortfalls. It is not about doing homework for dungeons and stuff, that is not as important as knowing your identity as a player and the damage you are expected to output. I used to sugarcoat stuff but I don't anymore, because there is no point to it.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    I really would like to emphasize a point that was brought upon here: Many don't know they're underperforming at all.

    Take the leveling experience. You see something that moves, you hit it, if it gives you a damage counter, keep hitting till it dies. Congrats! You've gotten EXPERIENCE POINTS. It's funny how it's even called that. Now if you check it out, the game has quite the exponential learning curve. You come from... well what I just said, about hitting aimlessly anything with just the random junk you had and you're doing good cause oh my god avatar weapons!! And... Then you drop into a world of checking where to hit the boss, when, when to stop, where to stand, when to stand where, when to avoid or else you're dead in one hit, what to never hit and what to hit as fast as possible, and what is even the best way to kill faster.

    Think of the importance of rotations in leveling.
    I'll tell ya bluntly: 0. Nothing. Nada. Nanimo. Ei Mitään. It's entirely insignificant if you're just auto-attacking or you're making the "by the manual" optimized rotation to your class. You may get into a party on a dungeon with no tank, where everyone is running madly around the boss, healer keeps people alive cause how hard is it to die on leveling dungeons, and you're doing the top tier rotation at the back of the boss, while that one OP class of the patch auto-attacks and does the SAME DPS as you, cause... hohohooo 3 levels of difference and Avatar weapon. It all just really nullifies the importance of any learning.

    Now, you drop directly into that world of knowing what to do. "But hey, come on I've always done this and everyone was happy on the party!!" And sure he's right. It's been like this on leveling, but well, now the auto-attacking and not avoiding hits are literally only a tad better than AFKing. The healers DPSing are crap, the tankers don't just aimlessly hit whatever whenever and don't bother with avoiding cause the shield/block was doing fine. How will a new player ever know he's not doing well?
    He just did what he always did and was good. Now he's suddenly dying all the time. What is his conclusion? Gotta stop dying. I'm doing DPS but I'm dying, that's what I should fix. Well, newbie learns avoiding hits. He stops dying. But yeah he's as good as a Thrall there. On his own mind, he's doing fine, he's doing DPS and not dying! What else is there to do? Then... yeah he's sucking and gets trashed. That's why I can't really get mad at side hitters and such that do terrible DPS. It's only normal. Never were they told what's their DPS and what even is a good DPS. They hit, things die, that should be fine right?

    This is why, I do think that players should indeed get taught about those stuff. Simply because there would otherwise be no way for them to ever know it's bad/wrong if they're not dying. They will be expected to do some level of performance, and I'm sure not against expecting this (specially because in some cases it's downright impossible to clear a dungeon without meeting some DPS goals on shields and such), but they should have some base to even know they're underperforming and what should they even do to stop underperforming.

    "but you get X crystals from quests! There's no excuse to not use them" yeah.... But then go and read the Pounding ones. They do flat damage increase for ANY monster. How come can that be a bad crystal? Flat damage to anything! Going for full power instead of crits too, how would any new guy ever figure out the crit/power balances and to just NOT use pounding ones despite looking so convenient? When is the boss enraged and how is a crystal that works only during enrage phase better than another one that is constant effect? What is better, having crit power or power always? Crit power looks better but only works during crits... Too many things for newcomers to figure out, and too many things MAY be outdated in guides too. But then back at the point: when would they ever figure out, that they do need to read any such guide? Even with in-game DPS meters (which I kinda agree), what is a good DPS for the class and gear set? Why same gear sets are making less damage?


    TL;DR: the game is filled with an insane amount of variables that no newcomer would ever know, and they would never know they're not doing well if they're not told so. Expecting good performance is fine/required, but they should have a way to even know how to reach those goals or that they need to reach them.
  • LaemieLaemie ✭✭
    edited January 12
    Maybe they can put in some short-useful lines on the loading screens if theyre able to :/ Like:

    "Attacking from behind is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Using backcrit crystals is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Threatening red crystal is useful for tanks"
    "Hardy blue crystal is the best for defense"
    "Always read the message on your screen inside dungeons"
    "Blue aggro means something special, watch out for that"
    "Some attacks cant be dodged (Iframed) or blocked"
    "Dodging skills usually give iframe that makes you invulnerable for a second"

    Etc etc etc... That sure helps better than the ones we're currently have..
  • What if there was an independent list for each player, not shown to the party, at the end of each dungeon that showed your dps and an average dps of others of your class and your gear score? It could have a list of your most used skills and how much damage they did.

    Then it could have a link to essential manna for tips.

    Its not like En Masse doesn't know about these, kritika does it.

    This would mean essential manna has to be updated though...
  • counterpointcounterpoint ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13
    Meshak wrote: »
    What if there was an independent list for each player, not shown to the party, at the end of each dungeon that showed your dps and an average dps of others of your class and your gear score? It could have a list of your most used skills and how much damage they did.

    Yes, this sort of "personal performance indicator" (with some sort of barometer to measure against) is the best compromise I've heard proposed in multiple MMOs trying to find the right balance for this topic. Most people do generally want to know how they're doing, but they'd feel more comfortable having a system tell them that privately (and give them an average to compare against) than to be shamed by other members of the party. With this sort of system, you could also calibrate it to the encounter over time by leveraging "big data," so that it would take into consideration mechanics that might impact your "score."

    Now the only thing is to convince TPTB to program this sort of feature. I believe BHS did actually allude at one point that they were considering adding something, though. We'll see.
  • Laemie wrote: »
    Maybe they can put in some short-useful lines on the loading screens if theyre able to :/ Like:

    "Attacking from behind is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Using backcrit crystals is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Threatening red crystal is useful for tanks"
    "Hardy blue crystal is the best for defense"
    "Always read the message on your screen inside dungeons"
    "Blue aggro means something special, watch out for that"
    "Some attacks cant be dodged (Iframed) or blocked"
    "Dodging skills usually give iframe that makes you invulnerable for a second"

    Etc etc etc... That sure helps better than the ones we're currently have..

    This one is a great idea actually because at least in my early days of Tera i always used to read the tips from the loading screens.
  • Laemie wrote: »
    Maybe they can put in some short-useful lines on the loading screens if theyre able to :/ Like:

    "Attacking from behind is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Using backcrit crystals is optimal for damage dealers"
    "Threatening red crystal is useful for tanks"
    "Hardy blue crystal is the best for defense"
    "Always read the message on your screen inside dungeons"
    "Blue aggro means something special, watch out for that"
    "Some attacks cant be dodged (Iframed) or blocked"
    "Dodging skills usually give iframe that makes you invulnerable for a second"

    Etc etc etc... That sure helps better than the ones we're currently have..

    When you log in, there's a popup that tells you what crystals to use and what skills to use based on your class, maybe you can add those lines there as well. I love the idea of putting sentences like this on the loading screen though. Bombard players w/ these tips on the loading screen until 65 or if they're entering a dungeon.
  • GelosGelos ✭✭
    ElinLove wrote: »
    I really would like to emphasize a point that was brought upon here: Many don't know they're underperforming at all.

    Take the leveling experience. You see something that moves, you hit it, if it gives you a damage counter, keep hitting till it dies. Congrats! You've gotten EXPERIENCE POINTS. It's funny how it's even called that. Now if you check it out, the game has quite the exponential learning curve. You come from... well what I just said, about hitting aimlessly anything with just the random junk you had and you're doing good cause oh my god avatar weapons!! And... Then you drop into a world of checking where to hit the boss, when, when to stop, where to stand, when to stand where, when to avoid or else you're dead in one hit, what to never hit and what to hit as fast as possible, and what is even the best way to kill faster.

    Think of the importance of rotations in leveling.
    I'll tell ya bluntly: 0. Nothing. Nada. Nanimo. Ei Mitään. It's entirely insignificant if you're just auto-attacking or you're making the "by the manual" optimized rotation to your class. You may get into a party on a dungeon with no tank, where everyone is running madly around the boss, healer keeps people alive cause how hard is it to die on leveling dungeons, and you're doing the top tier rotation at the back of the boss, while that one OP class of the patch auto-attacks and does the SAME DPS as you, cause... hohohooo 3 levels of difference and Avatar weapon. It all just really nullifies the importance of any learning.

    Now, you drop directly into that world of knowing what to do. "But hey, come on I've always done this and everyone was happy on the party!!" And sure he's right. It's been like this on leveling, but well, now the auto-attacking and not avoiding hits are literally only a tad better than AFKing. The healers DPSing are crap, the tankers don't just aimlessly hit whatever whenever and don't bother with avoiding cause the shield/block was doing fine. How will a new player ever know he's not doing well?
    He just did what he always did and was good. Now he's suddenly dying all the time. What is his conclusion? Gotta stop dying. I'm doing DPS but I'm dying, that's what I should fix. Well, newbie learns avoiding hits. He stops dying. But yeah he's as good as a Thrall there. On his own mind, he's doing fine, he's doing DPS and not dying! What else is there to do? Then... yeah he's sucking and gets trashed. That's why I can't really get mad at side hitters and such that do terrible DPS. It's only normal. Never were they told what's their DPS and what even is a good DPS. They hit, things die, that should be fine right?

    This is why, I do think that players should indeed get taught about those stuff. Simply because there would otherwise be no way for them to ever know it's bad/wrong if they're not dying. They will be expected to do some level of performance, and I'm sure not against expecting this (specially because in some cases it's downright impossible to clear a dungeon without meeting some DPS goals on shields and such), but they should have some base to even know they're underperforming and what should they even do to stop underperforming.

    "but you get X crystals from quests! There's no excuse to not use them" yeah.... But then go and read the Pounding ones. They do flat damage increase for ANY monster. How come can that be a bad crystal? Flat damage to anything! Going for full power instead of crits too, how would any new guy ever figure out the crit/power balances and to just NOT use pounding ones despite looking so convenient? When is the boss enraged and how is a crystal that works only during enrage phase better than another one that is constant effect? What is better, having crit power or power always? Crit power looks better but only works during crits... Too many things for newcomers to figure out, and too many things MAY be outdated in guides too. But then back at the point: when would they ever figure out, that they do need to read any such guide? Even with in-game DPS meters (which I kinda agree), what is a good DPS for the class and gear set? Why same gear sets are making less damage?


    TL;DR: the game is filled with an insane amount of variables that no newcomer would ever know, and they would never know they're not doing well if they're not told so. Expecting good performance is fine/required, but they should have a way to even know how to reach those goals or that they need to reach them.

    this is exactly how I play; It took my 3 years or better to figure out how to I could move around mobs( and i still forget) so i just do my little solo dungeons at 65 and grind mobs .I am a mouse clicker hitting buttons I dont usually think about. although lately i have been trying to remember to hit the skill buttons and not so much spacebar. I still havent figured out how to use my skill bar for a whole lot of stuff . So i do the very basic rotations(?)
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gelos wrote: »
    ElinLove wrote: »
    I really would like to emphasize a point that was brought upon here: Many don't know they're underperforming at all.

    Take the leveling experience. You see something that moves, you hit it, if it gives you a damage counter, keep hitting till it dies. Congrats! You've gotten EXPERIENCE POINTS. It's funny how it's even called that. Now if you check it out, the game has quite the exponential learning curve. You come from... well what I just said, about hitting aimlessly anything with just the random junk you had and you're doing good cause oh my god avatar weapons!! And... Then you drop into a world of checking where to hit the boss, when, when to stop, where to stand, when to stand where, when to avoid or else you're dead in one hit, what to never hit and what to hit as fast as possible, and what is even the best way to kill faster.

    Think of the importance of rotations in leveling.
    I'll tell ya bluntly: 0. Nothing. Nada. Nanimo. Ei Mitään. It's entirely insignificant if you're just auto-attacking or you're making the "by the manual" optimized rotation to your class. You may get into a party on a dungeon with no tank, where everyone is running madly around the boss, healer keeps people alive cause how hard is it to die on leveling dungeons, and you're doing the top tier rotation at the back of the boss, while that one OP class of the patch auto-attacks and does the SAME DPS as you, cause... hohohooo 3 levels of difference and Avatar weapon. It all just really nullifies the importance of any learning.

    Now, you drop directly into that world of knowing what to do. "But hey, come on I've always done this and everyone was happy on the party!!" And sure he's right. It's been like this on leveling, but well, now the auto-attacking and not avoiding hits are literally only a tad better than AFKing. The healers DPSing are crap, the tankers don't just aimlessly hit whatever whenever and don't bother with avoiding cause the shield/block was doing fine. How will a new player ever know he's not doing well?
    He just did what he always did and was good. Now he's suddenly dying all the time. What is his conclusion? Gotta stop dying. I'm doing DPS but I'm dying, that's what I should fix. Well, newbie learns avoiding hits. He stops dying. But yeah he's as good as a Thrall there. On his own mind, he's doing fine, he's doing DPS and not dying! What else is there to do? Then... yeah he's sucking and gets trashed. That's why I can't really get mad at side hitters and such that do terrible DPS. It's only normal. Never were they told what's their DPS and what even is a good DPS. They hit, things die, that should be fine right?

    This is why, I do think that players should indeed get taught about those stuff. Simply because there would otherwise be no way for them to ever know it's bad/wrong if they're not dying. They will be expected to do some level of performance, and I'm sure not against expecting this (specially because in some cases it's downright impossible to clear a dungeon without meeting some DPS goals on shields and such), but they should have some base to even know they're underperforming and what should they even do to stop underperforming.

    "but you get X crystals from quests! There's no excuse to not use them" yeah.... But then go and read the Pounding ones. They do flat damage increase for ANY monster. How come can that be a bad crystal? Flat damage to anything! Going for full power instead of crits too, how would any new guy ever figure out the crit/power balances and to just NOT use pounding ones despite looking so convenient? When is the boss enraged and how is a crystal that works only during enrage phase better than another one that is constant effect? What is better, having crit power or power always? Crit power looks better but only works during crits... Too many things for newcomers to figure out, and too many things MAY be outdated in guides too. But then back at the point: when would they ever figure out, that they do need to read any such guide? Even with in-game DPS meters (which I kinda agree), what is a good DPS for the class and gear set? Why same gear sets are making less damage?


    TL;DR: the game is filled with an insane amount of variables that no newcomer would ever know, and they would never know they're not doing well if they're not told so. Expecting good performance is fine/required, but they should have a way to even know how to reach those goals or that they need to reach them.

    this is exactly how I play; It took my 3 years or better to figure out how to I could move around mobs( and i still forget) so i just do my little solo dungeons at 65 and grind mobs .I am a mouse clicker hitting buttons I dont usually think about. although lately i have been trying to remember to hit the skill buttons and not so much spacebar. I still havent figured out how to use my skill bar for a whole lot of stuff . So i do the very basic rotations(?)

    Maybe you could get more comfortable playiing with a controler if keyboard and mouse gets to complicated.
  • From my experience, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. >u<

    Traps happen, push threw and shrug it off.
  • vkobevkobe ✭✭✭✭✭
    Satchin wrote: »
    So here's the situation that I have come across. We'll use it as an example, an arch type if you will rather than to hate on some individual.

    Just for context, I was running RG on a warrior, frostmetal +0 swords that I pushed up so I can grind out item exp for the rest of the armor more comfortably. It's a second warrior alt so I'm fairly familiar with the class. I had gotten an instance match, a valk and a lancer. So I swap to offense stance and build because, hey lancer. The way the first boss went, the lancer didn't use any buffs, can't hold aggro, didn't take care of any mechanics and did damage on par of a healer that's specifically trying to dps. It left me and the valk chasing the back of the boss, the valk wasn't very experienced as well but we got through it. My damage was basically cut in half in comparison to a working party. Again I'll say that damage comparisons are meant to provide context.

    So I shrugged it off and swapped my build to defense stance. I had the crystals and glyphs already set up, but can't afford secondary sword rolls.

    The lizard went better, my damage was about the same and the valk's damage shot up 4 times than last boss. The lancer however did the same, didn't read the situation, kept shouting to try to keep aggro, which is a problem in general as if it were someone else who had the correct sword rolls, would actually lower the dps of the person trying to tank, generally being useless or even detrimental. The rest of the dungeon run was like this and I didn't say anything to the lancer.

    So to simplify, I met a worryingly bad lancer and compensated the best I could with what I got without bringing it up to the guy.

    So the question I want to ask, was this the right thing to do?


    We have to assume this Lancer isn't just running one dungeon. The lancer will come across many people. He will keep being a detriment to parties. Is it right not to mention poor performance, or is it right to not mention it and delay it so someone else who's less patient to lay into him? The tank role is an important position. I have to include that this person actively lowers other people's damage potential and generally doesn't contribute any meaningful damage himself. I figure to anyone who can identify him as an issue would become very annoyed.

    The most reasonable, possibly usual scenario I could think of is the Lancer would have been kicked and replaced by literally anything else. Since it's RG, no problem for us. If it were KC or SF however, tanks aren't easy to find. It also just passes the Lancer along to some other party to deal with. Also it might give him the idea "they could've said something first" and think we were all toxic or something.

    If I were to say anything, chances are the guy would shut down, give the usual responses, call me toxic and elitist, maybe come to the forums and tell you guys about the toxic players etc etc.


    So I lay it to the forum. I see a lot of people on the side of anti toxicity, how do we solve these issues that wouldn't just ignore and spread the problem. I think we can't just think that the victim of tongue lashing is always some saint, defensiveness and unwillingness to change or learn is also very toxic and brings out the worst in others. So what can be done?

    dont doe IMS or be better to crecruit players in your team ;)
  • I don't understand, if the dungeon is easy then you should carry if the dungeon needs all party members to know mechanics then the dungeon is not easy, again remove RG and bring back CW. Less headache more fun.
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