community discussion about low performing players

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Comments

  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gelos wrote: »
    ElinLove wrote: »
    I really would like to emphasize a point that was brought upon here: Many don't know they're underperforming at all.

    Take the leveling experience. You see something that moves, you hit it, if it gives you a damage counter, keep hitting till it dies. Congrats! You've gotten EXPERIENCE POINTS. It's funny how it's even called that. Now if you check it out, the game has quite the exponential learning curve. You come from... well what I just said, about hitting aimlessly anything with just the random junk you had and you're doing good cause oh my god avatar weapons!! And... Then you drop into a world of checking where to hit the boss, when, when to stop, where to stand, when to stand where, when to avoid or else you're dead in one hit, what to never hit and what to hit as fast as possible, and what is even the best way to kill faster.

    Think of the importance of rotations in leveling.
    I'll tell ya bluntly: 0. Nothing. Nada. Nanimo. Ei Mitään. It's entirely insignificant if you're just auto-attacking or you're making the "by the manual" optimized rotation to your class. You may get into a party on a dungeon with no tank, where everyone is running madly around the boss, healer keeps people alive cause how hard is it to die on leveling dungeons, and you're doing the top tier rotation at the back of the boss, while that one OP class of the patch auto-attacks and does the SAME DPS as you, cause... hohohooo 3 levels of difference and Avatar weapon. It all just really nullifies the importance of any learning.

    Now, you drop directly into that world of knowing what to do. "But hey, come on I've always done this and everyone was happy on the party!!" And sure he's right. It's been like this on leveling, but well, now the auto-attacking and not avoiding hits are literally only a tad better than AFKing. The healers DPSing are crap, the tankers don't just aimlessly hit whatever whenever and don't bother with avoiding cause the shield/block was doing fine. How will a new player ever know he's not doing well?
    He just did what he always did and was good. Now he's suddenly dying all the time. What is his conclusion? Gotta stop dying. I'm doing DPS but I'm dying, that's what I should fix. Well, newbie learns avoiding hits. He stops dying. But yeah he's as good as a Thrall there. On his own mind, he's doing fine, he's doing DPS and not dying! What else is there to do? Then... yeah he's sucking and gets trashed. That's why I can't really get mad at side hitters and such that do terrible DPS. It's only normal. Never were they told what's their DPS and what even is a good DPS. They hit, things die, that should be fine right?

    This is why, I do think that players should indeed get taught about those stuff. Simply because there would otherwise be no way for them to ever know it's bad/wrong if they're not dying. They will be expected to do some level of performance, and I'm sure not against expecting this (specially because in some cases it's downright impossible to clear a dungeon without meeting some DPS goals on shields and such), but they should have some base to even know they're underperforming and what should they even do to stop underperforming.

    "but you get X crystals from quests! There's no excuse to not use them" yeah.... But then go and read the Pounding ones. They do flat damage increase for ANY monster. How come can that be a bad crystal? Flat damage to anything! Going for full power instead of crits too, how would any new guy ever figure out the crit/power balances and to just NOT use pounding ones despite looking so convenient? When is the boss enraged and how is a crystal that works only during enrage phase better than another one that is constant effect? What is better, having crit power or power always? Crit power looks better but only works during crits... Too many things for newcomers to figure out, and too many things MAY be outdated in guides too. But then back at the point: when would they ever figure out, that they do need to read any such guide? Even with in-game DPS meters (which I kinda agree), what is a good DPS for the class and gear set? Why same gear sets are making less damage?


    TL;DR: the game is filled with an insane amount of variables that no newcomer would ever know, and they would never know they're not doing well if they're not told so. Expecting good performance is fine/required, but they should have a way to even know how to reach those goals or that they need to reach them.

    this is exactly how I play; It took my 3 years or better to figure out how to I could move around mobs( and i still forget) so i just do my little solo dungeons at 65 and grind mobs .I am a mouse clicker hitting buttons I dont usually think about. although lately i have been trying to remember to hit the skill buttons and not so much spacebar. I still havent figured out how to use my skill bar for a whole lot of stuff . So i do the very basic rotations(?)

    Maybe you could get more comfortable playiing with a controler if keyboard and mouse gets to complicated.
  • From my experience, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. >u<

    Traps happen, push threw and shrug it off.
  • vkobevkobe ✭✭✭✭✭
    Satchin wrote: »
    So here's the situation that I have come across. We'll use it as an example, an arch type if you will rather than to hate on some individual.

    Just for context, I was running RG on a warrior, frostmetal +0 swords that I pushed up so I can grind out item exp for the rest of the armor more comfortably. It's a second warrior alt so I'm fairly familiar with the class. I had gotten an instance match, a valk and a lancer. So I swap to offense stance and build because, hey lancer. The way the first boss went, the lancer didn't use any buffs, can't hold aggro, didn't take care of any mechanics and did damage on par of a healer that's specifically trying to dps. It left me and the valk chasing the back of the boss, the valk wasn't very experienced as well but we got through it. My damage was basically cut in half in comparison to a working party. Again I'll say that damage comparisons are meant to provide context.

    So I shrugged it off and swapped my build to defense stance. I had the crystals and glyphs already set up, but can't afford secondary sword rolls.

    The lizard went better, my damage was about the same and the valk's damage shot up 4 times than last boss. The lancer however did the same, didn't read the situation, kept shouting to try to keep aggro, which is a problem in general as if it were someone else who had the correct sword rolls, would actually lower the dps of the person trying to tank, generally being useless or even detrimental. The rest of the dungeon run was like this and I didn't say anything to the lancer.

    So to simplify, I met a worryingly bad lancer and compensated the best I could with what I got without bringing it up to the guy.

    So the question I want to ask, was this the right thing to do?


    We have to assume this Lancer isn't just running one dungeon. The lancer will come across many people. He will keep being a detriment to parties. Is it right not to mention poor performance, or is it right to not mention it and delay it so someone else who's less patient to lay into him? The tank role is an important position. I have to include that this person actively lowers other people's damage potential and generally doesn't contribute any meaningful damage himself. I figure to anyone who can identify him as an issue would become very annoyed.

    The most reasonable, possibly usual scenario I could think of is the Lancer would have been kicked and replaced by literally anything else. Since it's RG, no problem for us. If it were KC or SF however, tanks aren't easy to find. It also just passes the Lancer along to some other party to deal with. Also it might give him the idea "they could've said something first" and think we were all toxic or something.

    If I were to say anything, chances are the guy would shut down, give the usual responses, call me toxic and elitist, maybe come to the forums and tell you guys about the toxic players etc etc.


    So I lay it to the forum. I see a lot of people on the side of anti toxicity, how do we solve these issues that wouldn't just ignore and spread the problem. I think we can't just think that the victim of tongue lashing is always some saint, defensiveness and unwillingness to change or learn is also very toxic and brings out the worst in others. So what can be done?

    dont doe IMS or be better to crecruit players in your team ;)
  • I don't understand, if the dungeon is easy then you should carry if the dungeon needs all party members to know mechanics then the dungeon is not easy, again remove RG and bring back CW. Less headache more fun.
  • TheDarkWan wrote: »
    I don't understand, if the dungeon is easy then you should carry if the dungeon needs all party members to know mechanics then the dungeon is not easy, again remove RG and bring back CW. Less headache more fun.

    While it isn't as easy as CW, RG is still able to be classified as a low tier. Also unlike CW it actually tries to teach players some mechanics, the shield buff that needs to be removed by a healer at the start of each fight tries to show that there will be mechanics that you need to plague, among other mechanics in the dungeon. Just actually finding someone who both knows the same language as you and is actually willing to speak/listen is a rare sight in IMS. I used to actually put effort into helping people but the more people you meet who refuse to even acknowledge anything except what they're already doing just drains away any willpower to keep trying and you eventually just end up staying silent and carrying them, or becoming toxic and spewing out some nasty words.
  • You can never know what kind of person is sitting on the other side of the screen. Therefore there's a fine line between constructive criticism, gloating over you're own performance, belittling someone, and between genuinely wanting to help them out. The best way to help someone, is not to come across as being condescending. Which is why if you do choose to give them advice, you should do so respectfully, without making it seems like you're "gods gift to Tera".

    How? try to think of yourself, and how you would like to be treated if you were in their position. The key to helping someone, is attempting to understand where they come from. Which is why before you choose to say anything, you can start by inspecting them. Look for signs of something that indicates what might be the possible cause to their low performance. This can range to anything from wrong crystals, wrong rolls, wrong etchings, what guild they are in (if any), and basically anything that shows you what you are dealing with. After you do that, you should have enough basic information to deduce a good direction for them to take (this is also something you can do at the beginning of the dungeon itself). Then you can approach them politely, and explain to them calmly that you wish to give them some pointers. Because if you just say "git gud omg use double pounding" or something like that, without providing an explanation, then you are probably just pissing them off. You always need to remember that if you come off too strong about this subject, then some players might misinterpret you're intentions to help them. How you come across will determine if they will want to listen to you (emphasis on the word "want").

    I`m not saying there is not a limit to this, some people are willfully dense, and some players are just plain, well.. stupid. It happens. These are things which are not in you're control, and you can`t force someone to listen to you. All you can ever do, is try. If you ask me, the best way to go about this, is to indulge in a brief and friendly conversation before you start playing. Even something as simple as starting off the dungeon with a few jokes and showing others that you are friendly, can set the tone for the entire thing. This is good because it can open the lines of communication between everyone, and you might be able to see what kind of people you are playing with. Just my two cents. I hope this helped someone.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭
    TheDarkWan wrote: »
    I don't understand, if the dungeon is easy then you should carry if the dungeon needs all party members to know mechanics then the dungeon is not easy, again remove RG and bring back CW. Less headache more fun.

    This is frankly a problem: you just carry people up until the point where they should have known what to do way before, but obviously they don't cause you silently carried them. Like I said on my previous wall of text: It's not that easy, or actually downright impossible for a new player, to know if you're underperforming or not if you're not dying. Yes, meters, whatever. They're sometimes a hassle to install, downright not allowed by ToS (so 2 points against it for new guys), and with just comparing yourself to possibly other players who suck, what do you achieve? Or when you compare yourself to that god tier +9 Stormcry geared dude, what's your conclusion? "WOOO I WANT THAT GEAR!! LOOK AT THAT DUDE'S DAMAGE!" while the percentages aren't nearly close to what gear alone would do.
    This all brings again to the 2nd point of your comment: "if the dungeon needs all party members to know mechanics then the dungeon is not easy".... well... yyeah? Then when they fall into the not easy dungeons, they're just gonna be fresh meat for the bosses and floor warmers (or are TERA character corpses cold?). They'll be expected of what they never knew they needed to do.

    Agreed, that showing people that they ARE underperforming and how to fix it can be difficult to do without being toxic or without the whiny crybabies bursting into tears and toxicity fits. That's part of dealing with humans after all, and even if they're behind a monitor they're still not bots (hopefully, if they are, hit up that report on support tickets).
  • AxeIAxeI ✭✭✭
    Just create a closed guild with friends and save yourself the trouble. Sadly for IMS queue with the mentality that YOU have to carry.
  • aeee98aeee98 ✭✭✭✭
    Actually it is not difficult.

    I think it is time for pros to make low-tier gear and make video guides showing that it is possible for low-geared people to do the damage they do. The mentality of "gear is necessary" has to stop (especially when I see people with better gear than me underperforming massively).

    If more people make videos like these and these people get more publicity (most Tera youtubers are well geared and most who are not aren't that good at the game to make guides), I think we can reduce the number of helpless people. Of course, low-performing members will always exist in every single game out there. But helping newbies get out of the newbie zone will automatically increase the number of skilled players and also reduce the amount of low-performing members.

  • BabbelsimBabbelsim ✭✭✭
    Something i like to ad is i still see people from time to time with old gear, like Guile and Misery.
    I try to explain they need to get the new gear in Highwatch (red questline) but i mostly get no response back, im surprised that you still can que dungeons at all with old gear that sould not be possible anymore
  • GelosGelos ✭✭
    Babbelsim wrote: »
    Something i like to ad is i still see people from time to time with old gear, like Guile and Misery.
    I try to explain they need to get the new gear in Highwatch (red questline) but i mostly get no response back, im surprised that you still can que dungeons at all with old gear that sould not be possible anymore

    heck when new gear came out I had my valk in misery and a couple of others ; didnt read thru correctly guess what i did yep started out in Guardian.
    sometimes simple bullet explanations work better, sometimes long explanations are needful but at all times be nice. Even if it doesnt look like they listened they did just processing the info might take a bit. but directly to you Babbelsim they probable heard you and did as you suggested (hopefully).
  • Simple thing is to always tell them what they are doing weong. The difference is only in how toxic you are when you go about it. I'm playing a ninja with a mystic and an archer during RG event. Mystic knows what he's doing archer is lost. I carry the first boss and when we get to 2nd boss ninja tanking in back critical crystals. Archer doesn't know mech no crystal bind cruxs wrong skills makes the fight go through all the mechs. So with the boss at 25% life I as the archer if he knows the mechs. NADA nothing. Mystic gets an attitude when I start to explain mechs and what the archer should do. "You should shut up or you don't need my buffs and heals" LOL ok mystic this is my 5th or 6th at that I can actually play and know the mechs so RG yeah don't need you or buffs or aura. Plus I've got ninja I frame jitsu... starts last boss without me (doesn't even wait) archers oblivious and is already there. 15 mins into last boss mystic drops archers finally paying attention and asks where the healer went. Archer is burning through neo res's so I tell him to respond and I'll kill the boss, no need to recruit. I explain what mechs to avoid and I kill the boss right after 2nd egg.

    THEN I explain the mechs for first 2nd and 3rd boss. Tell him where his gear is wrong, tell him the correct skills to use in what priority and where he should be almost all of a boss fight (the back).

    Rng gods pity me I win the rolls on all the loot boxes. I ask what server archers on and log in there. Parcel him every no strum I had laying around along with CCB and replacement crystals for what he broke. Explain what they are for.

    Make a friend on TR, noon but hey I was once also. Laugh at mystic to myself because archers not gonna understand.

    You have to say something to new players or they will never get better and they will quit soon after because of the difficulty curb.
  • GelosGelos ✭✭
    Simple thing is to always tell them what they are doing weong. The difference is only in how toxic you are when you go about it. I'm playing a ninja with a mystic and an archer during RG event. Mystic knows what he's doing archer is lost. I carry the first boss and when we get to 2nd boss ninja tanking in back critical crystals. Archer doesn't know mech no crystal bind cruxs wrong skills makes the fight go through all the mechs. So with the boss at 25% life I as the archer if he knows the mechs. NADA nothing. Mystic gets an attitude when I start to explain mechs and what the archer should do. "You should shut up or you don't need my buffs and heals" LOL ok mystic this is my 5th or 6th at that I can actually play and know the mechs so RG yeah don't need you or buffs or aura. Plus I've got ninja I frame jitsu... starts last boss without me (doesn't even wait) archers oblivious and is already there. 15 mins into last boss mystic drops archers finally paying attention and asks where the healer went. Archer is burning through neo res's so I tell him to respond and I'll kill the boss, no need to recruit. I explain what mechs to avoid and I kill the boss right after 2nd egg.

    THEN I explain the mechs for first 2nd and 3rd boss. Tell him where his gear is wrong, tell him the correct skills to use in what priority and where he should be almost all of a boss fight (the back).

    Rng gods pity me I win the rolls on all the loot boxes. I ask what server archers on and log in there. Parcel him every no strum I had laying around along with CCB and replacement crystals for what he broke. Explain what they are for.

    Make a friend on TR, noon but hey I was once also. Laugh at mystic to myself because archers not gonna understand.

    You have to say something to new players or they will never get better and they will quit soon after because of the difficulty curb.

    I agree with this as long as you explain it plainly and dont use those fancy acronyms for stuff on new players without spelling it out. I am not a new player but it took me a long time to "get" a bunch of abbreviations for stuff.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭
    Gelos wrote: »
    Simple thing is to always tell them what they are doing weong. The difference is only in how toxic you are when you go about it. I'm playing a ninja with a mystic and an archer during RG event. Mystic knows what he's doing archer is lost. I carry the first boss and when we get to 2nd boss ninja tanking in back critical crystals. Archer doesn't know mech no crystal bind cruxs wrong skills makes the fight go through all the mechs. So with the boss at 25% life I as the archer if he knows the mechs. NADA nothing. Mystic gets an attitude when I start to explain mechs and what the archer should do. "You should shut up or you don't need my buffs and heals" LOL ok mystic this is my 5th or 6th at that I can actually play and know the mechs so RG yeah don't need you or buffs or aura. Plus I've got ninja I frame jitsu... starts last boss without me (doesn't even wait) archers oblivious and is already there. 15 mins into last boss mystic drops archers finally paying attention and asks where the healer went. Archer is burning through neo res's so I tell him to respond and I'll kill the boss, no need to recruit. I explain what mechs to avoid and I kill the boss right after 2nd egg.

    THEN I explain the mechs for first 2nd and 3rd boss. Tell him where his gear is wrong, tell him the correct skills to use in what priority and where he should be almost all of a boss fight (the back).

    Rng gods pity me I win the rolls on all the loot boxes. I ask what server archers on and log in there. Parcel him every no strum I had laying around along with CCB and replacement crystals for what he broke. Explain what they are for.

    Make a friend on TR, noon but hey I was once also. Laugh at mystic to myself because archers not gonna understand.

    You have to say something to new players or they will never get better and they will quit soon after because of the difficulty curb.

    I agree with this as long as you explain it plainly and dont use those fancy acronyms for stuff on new players without spelling it out. I am not a new player but it took me a long time to "get" a bunch of abbreviations for stuff.

    Don't be shy to ask the acronyms too, that's also part of learning the game. I remember when CS was a thing (Corsair's Stronghold, in case that's also one unknown), 1st time I did it I just followed everyone around and asked what I didn't know like the acronyms and such, then later on I started to pick up on the strategies and such, and by my top shape I was quite the lead. Would rarely ever lose a defense round, and could like 60% of the time get a nice attack as well (come on, it's CS after all, ya all know how it goes!).

    I know that every now and then there's some trash that just wants their oh-so-pros on their team (that may even suck but don't tell 'em that), but more often than not, someone will tell you the answer to some question. The quicker/simpler the higher chance of success too, as less patience is needed for it.
    I remember quite some times new but eager guys came asking for the acronyms and such, they learned them on-the-fly and proceeded to help the team epically, and I mean epically, even if low levels and clear 1st timers (you can tell it if it's an experienced guy trolling saying he's a 1st timer).
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