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TERA: Rise of The Fallen?

13

Comments

  • FRSTY wrote: »
    The thing is Blizzard is an American company, BHS is Korean...
    Yes, that is true and of course the language barrier isn't making things much better also.
    Meshak wrote: »
    Ok, so... what do we do? All it takes Is a little reading to see how many people feel forgotten by the game here, but surely something has to have worked somewhere? Clearly we are passionate about this game and would like to see it succeed.

    It seems, at least on this forum, a good number of players feel the game went/is going the wrong direction. There are numerous lists about what could be changed which seem to be ignored.

    How about if En Masse told us what they have direct control over and we then gave input specific to said list? Sort of work with what we can rather than complain about what we can do nothing about?

    Well @counterpoint pretty much said everything on the subject.

    Personally, coming up with some kind of petition showing that the community does care and want to see major improvements regarding TERA. The advantages of doing so will bring in more players and money for Bluehole and En masse.
    ElinLove wrote: »
    Well, this is then a nice big set of people being stubborn to invest properly into the game.
    The whole deal about how different the populations of each game localizations are, and how they obviously refuse to just accept this fact and that you should make changes to work worldwide, restricting themselves contractually to just BHS ruling and all obey, sounds to me like some very stupid financial decision.

    I'm really starting to think that might be the problem. They need to fully understand that the direction of this game is hurting the player base on a worldwide scale.
    Ammutseba wrote: »
    For MMO's, age doesn't effect the game as much as other genre's. You could still see a rise in population if BHS made meaningful improvements to the game.

    I completely agree, and the fact that after all these years on the market, there isn't many MMO's like TERA. If they just capitalize on that, there's no telling how dominant TERA would be right now.

  • counterpointcounterpoint ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14
    ElinLove wrote: »
    Well, this is then a nice big set of people being stubborn to invest properly into the game.
    The whole deal about how different the populations of each game localizations are, and how they obviously refuse to just accept this fact and that you should make changes to work worldwide, restricting themselves contractually to just BHS ruling and all obey, sounds to me like some very stupid financial decision.
    Players themselves can see much more than the developers (???) and how the health of the community is not alright, they should be seeing the numbers financially. It just can't be that they're seeing it work, this makes me wonder heavily if they're just keeping the stubborn mindset betting it will work out later and cost cutting is a good idea or if they really cannot afford it anymore and are on a worse situation than expected.

    I can totally understand how the game goes through a big chain of command and that BHS just sits at the ultimate top, but then, it just looks like they're being very stupid and stubborn to me.

    Well, FWIW, they made a strategic investment that you probably don't agree with. They decided to invest in the Western market through an expansion into consoles. You might say "what a waste! they could have just invested all that money into customizing and improving the PC game for us!" but my guess is that the board wouldn't see it that way. Investing in console is a way of building their in-house capacity both at BHS (programming/optimizing for consoles) and also at EME (Sony/MS certification, console game support, etc.). It's also possible that any improvements or optimizations they make for console could make their way back to the PC build. And, if console actually does work and find an audience, then that's a broader playerbase driving improvements to the baseline TERA for all regions and platforms. (If console is successful, that'll be even more voices at the table in favor of changes that match our market preferences.)

    So basically, they took a more shrewd approach to the problem. Keep in mind that when the game first launched, they did customize it more extensively for various markets, and they went through a conscious process to try to unify them as much as possible in the last few years (as part of the process of speeding up the release cadence). So they've been down that road already; an "if you build it, they will come" spiel probably won't work on them. But it's not like they're outright not investing. They basically said "we're willing to invest, but into something that will help us grow as a company over the long term." My guess is that it's probably because, for their next MMO game, they are going to want it on consoles as well, and it's part of their long-term corporate diversification strategy. (It also means that, going forward, EME will be able to sell their services to other companies as a console publisher.)

    I realize my saying all this doesn't solve our problem as TERA PC players dealing with the here and now. But I strongly suspect this is why they're doing what they're doing.
  • Whether they can effect mob stats or damage or not, they can certainly impact the game and player satisfaction. Crafting mats and engaging the player base.

    They can sort of make up for lack of content with constant events, weekly world boss events with small quests attached with meaningful reward for all gear levels. If they're able to do this, create their own events, I think they can do more than we give them credit for.

    Also, look at past events and double vanguards. This alone tells me if done well they have the in house ability to make the game better. In the past an event could net you the mats you needed to do a lot of upgrading. So I don't think they're as hamstrung as we think. Some of the events were pretty op with mats weren't they? Wouldn't a lot of people would say they want to benefit from those events, but they're bad for the game and game economy.

    If they did events/rewards and mat distribution better, it would have a positive impact.

    Engaging the player base. A weekly video is nice, but look how many people are frustrated with the number and type of posts from eme. Respond and follow up.

    I still think knowing what each role is responsible for and what exactly eme can and cant do would be helpful. I don't want to just give them a pass because we assume there's nothing they can do.


  • counterpointcounterpoint ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14
    Meshak wrote: »
    If they did events/rewards and mat distribution better, it would have a positive impact.

    You have to remember that they made a conscious and deliberate decision with this gear cycle that they would try to interfere with mat distribution as little as possible. This was in direct response to the previous gear cycles where they ran events that influenced gear progression way too much (at least in their view, and as also expressed by some people on the forum). So right now they are being very conservative with mats for that reason.

    I think they will start to loosen up over time (like they added diamonds to PvP jackpots this month), but they are being very cautious and purposefully letting BHS's system play out. So this isn't a question of "are you able to do something" it's "are you willing to do something". They're basically trying on purpose to make it so that any feedback people have about mat distro is BHS's responsibility this time.

    (I'm not suggesting that this was a good idea, but just trying to explain one of the factors at play specifically related to this issue.)
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinLove wrote: »
    Well, this is then a nice big set of people being stubborn to invest properly into the game.
    The whole deal about how different the populations of each game localizations are, and how they obviously refuse to just accept this fact and that you should make changes to work worldwide, restricting themselves contractually to just BHS ruling and all obey, sounds to me like some very stupid financial decision.
    Players themselves can see much more than the developers (???) and how the health of the community is not alright, they should be seeing the numbers financially. It just can't be that they're seeing it work, this makes me wonder heavily if they're just keeping the stubborn mindset betting it will work out later and cost cutting is a good idea or if they really cannot afford it anymore and are on a worse situation than expected.

    I can totally understand how the game goes through a big chain of command and that BHS just sits at the ultimate top, but then, it just looks like they're being very stupid and stubborn to me.

    Well, FWIW, they made a strategic investment that you probably don't agree with. They decided to invest in the Western market through an expansion into consoles. You might say "what a waste! they could have just invested all that money into customizing and improving the PC game for us!" but my guess is that the board wouldn't see it that way. Investing in console is a way of building their in-house capacity both at BHS (programming/optimizing for consoles) and also at EME (Sony/MS certification, console game support, etc.). It's also possible that any improvements or optimizations they make for console could make their way back to the PC build. And, if console actually does work and find an audience, then that's a broader playerbase driving improvements to the baseline TERA for all regions and platforms. (If console is successful, that'll be even more voices at the table in favor of changes that match our market preferences.)

    So basically, they took a more shrewd approach to the problem. Keep in mind that when the game first launched, they did customize it more extensively for various markets, and they went through a conscious process to try to unify them as much as possible in the last few years (as part of the process of speeding up the release cadence). So they've been down that road already; an "if you build it, they will come" spiel probably won't work on them. But it's not like they're outright not investing. They basically said "we're willing to invest, but into something that will help us grow as a company over the long term." My guess is that it's probably because, for their next MMO game, they are going to want it on consoles as well, and it's part of their long-term corporate diversification strategy. (It also means that, going forward, EME will be able to sell their services to other companies as a console publisher.)

    I realize my saying all this doesn't solve our problem as TERA PC players dealing with the here and now. But I strongly suspect this is why they're doing what they're doing.

    Actually, I do not disagree with their decision to bring it to consoles at all. In fact I commend them for going that route. What I still cannot give in, is how they seem to really not want to leave the balancing decisions for each region, instead forcing their own method on the base build and deal with it, sucks for ya all to not have talents.
    The decision to program to console, I can imagine it a lot the way you do: kinda like a training, instead of a new game from scratch, they learn the differences in hardware and how to actually deal with so much cores (as they should have done to begin with on PUBG or so I've heard) by porting it to a hardware with it's limitations. The long term makes sense indeed, and as we've both discussed since like last year's beginning (or was it even before) when we've heard of the console port, it can make it's necessary changes into our build too. Also, as you say, a broader audience IS beneficial to us too as there's more voices to say it out loud.
    I just hope that console port IS successful and also brings some more people into PC too, and then they kinda wake up to the whole area differences, and I can understand how they, BHS themselves wouldn't do the balancing and PVE/PVP/Grind balancing too 3~5x to account for all the different areas.
    Still, I believe this would be a valid investment once they're offloaded from the whole console deal (they'll always have work to do on it, but not nearly as much after it's done of course).
  • I kept reading what was said there and its interesting in a way to see that EME does not have enough freedom to personalize? Tera PC/NA and make it more appealing for the player base that has different views than KR? .. but the game is in such a bad state right now on NA that i do not even see what is there to lose anymore? The hundreds of players that barely login these days and the fact that less and less players are online with every week? So why not take a leap of faith and actually stop doing half assed events that sometimes give they impression that they are thoroughly thought to be as less rewarding as possible like for example this TRNM event where we struggle to get items that are two years old like the smart dyads and other regions are giving them in a much easier fasion? And why not update the shops to give more or less rewarding but at least not frustrating rewards for both PvP and PvE?

    How hard is to make Tera NA to be a game that motivates players to want to play? Unless the more rewards they gain in game then the less is the chance to have them spend real money? I am confused because if that is the case then why not start by making Elite more appealing for both PvP and PvE players to encourage players to want to spend their 15$ on elite membership? Then move forwards and tweak the cash shop a bit for the same PvP and PvE players? I might be wrong but i am pretty sure that players would be happy to spend as long as they would have active battlegrounds/dungeons.

    There is also the issue that Tera has great combat mechanics and many players including myself would rather play Tera instead of a game like FFXIV where you stand in the same place for a lot of time and push buttons in a certain order over and over again for a rotation.. But again if Tera has NO PVP and the PVE is barely alive then the point of having a great combat system instantly disappears since that combat system cannot be put to use so the other games might be tab target or any other boring thing but at the very least they have PvP and PvE.

    p.s. bless online is also coming soon this year...
  • To be honest i understand why pc gamers are hating on consoles so much slowly but surely gaming is dying out on pc and growing bigger and bigger on console. It's not a bad thing just a change. I mean i for one have been a hard core pc fan boy for years but now that pc is losing their luster from consoles catching up to them it just seems kinda well pointless. So your misplace aggression is understood but pc will stop producing games sooner or later and the icd 11 coming out in may definately wont be doing it any favors. But if you need proof that gaming is dying out on pc. What is the last NON internet base game you bought in the last year? last 5 years? last 10 years? hate to say it but pc day in the sun is over sadly.
  • CatservantCatservant ✭✭✭✭
    Gaeowyn wrote: »
    To be honest i understand why pc gamers are hating on consoles so much slowly but surely gaming is dying out on pc and growing bigger and bigger on console. It's not a bad thing just a change. I mean i for one have been a hard core pc fan boy for years but now that pc is losing their luster from consoles catching up to them it just seems kinda well pointless. So your misplace aggression is understood but pc will stop producing games sooner or later and the icd 11 coming out in may definately wont be doing it any favors. But if you need proof that gaming is dying out on pc. What is the last NON internet base game you bought in the last year? last 5 years? last 10 years? hate to say it but pc day in the sun is over sadly.


    It's a cycle, and maybe everything is shifting to consoles for now, but it will shift back later, or on to whatever we are using by then. Maybe tablets will have become so smart they can play games like this.

    My only beef with consoles is the stupid companies that won't let them play on the same servers as us. If we could all play together, and you could play your character on the computer AND your console....but no. We have one company that refuses to let its customers get exposed to gen chat unfiltered and we all have to play separately. (#bitter)

    It feels like we're being thrown away while a new class of players are being courted right in front of us.

    Hopefully it will turn out better than that.
  • @counterpoint I hear you, understand what you say and why you say it. But, it also just sounds like give them a pass. Which is why we are here. I understand your explaining things for us isn't the same thing as you defending them, but we're in this post to see what we can do to change things.

    You have such a great understanding of why things are done, so what do we do about it? Obviously posting doesn't work. What sort of petition should we do, who should we address it to?
  • kubitoidkubitoid ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gaeowyn wrote: »
    What is the last NON internet base game you bought in the last year?
    titan quest - ragnarok
    grim dawn - ashes of malmouth
    hellblade - senua's sacrifice
    divinity original sin 2

    on GOG
  • counterpointcounterpoint ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15
    Meshak wrote: »
    so what do we do about it? Obviously posting doesn't work. What sort of petition should we do, who should we address it to?
    I would suggest first to have a realistic goal. We're not in control of the chessboard; we're just a single pawn at the start line. For now all we can do is move forward.

    What I mean is: you're not going to topple BHS leadership or cause them to somehow wake from some stupor and be like "oh [filtered], we should really listen to what NA players want and give in." Giving them a huge list of major changes to the game's strategic direction is not an easy sell. They also had their reasons for changing things over the years, so if you propose "go back to how things were," it's a significant uphill battle. Besides, we're just one market of many, and BHS does not need us to survive; they can just close TERA NA and be like "we had a good run," and keep focusing on PUBG, A:IR, Console TERA, and TERA PC in the regions where what they want to do still works. EME is diversifying into other projects and can probably keep finding work, too.

    Does all that mean we need to give up? No, of course not. I don't think either EME or BHS actually want TERA to die in NA either, as that helps no one. But I wouldn't spend time now focusing on how I'm going to checkmate the king.

    I already said here what I choose to focus on. They're issues I can clearly articulate, are within EME's scope to address, and have a clear benefit to all players. Things I can explain in an elevator pitch. I hope that, in bringing constructive, achievable suggestions that they can "buy into," and seeing positive results, it'll lead to more trust and the next win. It's a frustrating, slow process that tries my patience... but it's the only way I see of keeping this pawn in the game.

    Of course, you don't have to believe me. Maybe I'm misguided or wrong. I personally don't see how any amount of petitions or angry complaints to anyone are going to accomplish much, particularly if what you want is vague, nebulous, not clearly actionable, and likely at odds with their experiences, metrics, and global priorities. But I do know that even pawns can become queens, so nothing is impossible.
  • ElinUsagiElinUsagi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15
    @counterpoint I am not trying to sound pesimistic but do you know what happened with Tera on China?

    It failed in the same year K-Tera had dificulties to keep going.

    Nexon got the rights to publish K-Tera shortly after China failed and their way to do things have kept alive the game there. Maybe that's one of the reasons BHS has narrowed their vision of how NA should be managed.

    2016 was a really hard year for Tera world wide and Nexon cash shop marketing was what brought a second air to the game.

    Hard to strive from that path once you have put a feet on that ground.
  • counterpointcounterpoint ✭✭✭✭✭
    ElinUsagi wrote: »
    Nexon got the rights to publish K-Tera shortly after China failed and their way to do things have kept alive the game there. Maybe that's one of the reasons BHS has narrowed their vision of how NA should be managed.

    Even if that's the case, that doesn't mean nothing can be done. Or rather... if people really think nothing can be done, then there's no point in discussing anything in the first place. That's what I mean by achievable goals. I think there are still things that can be done to help make the game better, even if you can't fix everything or drastically change the whole game's course all at once.
  • I'm not sure I like the analogy of us being a pawn when we're the paying customers. If you're suggesting the only thing we can do is have one person talk to eme when they get the chance and hope for change I would hope there are more options for interaction.

    Not that we don't appreciate you talking to them, especially if it is the only method of communication as its incredibly important, and kudos to you for doing so, it I'm sure its trying at best. Hopefully its rewarding at times as well. As a player council member are there regular meetings where you get to voice concerns or something?

    Again, what if eme actually responded to one of the lists of good ideas with something other than "good idea, we're forwarding it"? How about a follow up to the message they forwarded. Whether its good news or bad news. Don't they have community managers? What exactly is the scope of the community manager?

    I think there have been several direct questions eme could answer within this thread and certainly some actionable ideas.
  • counterpointcounterpoint ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16
    Meshak wrote: »
    I'm not sure I like the analogy of us being a pawn when we're the paying customers.
    The analogy was about the scale of our voice/power. Even as a paying customer, the scale of our influence is limited because of the business structure at play (centrally managed by the development team to serve all global markets, of which we're only one, and not necessarily the most important one). That's what I've been trying to explain.

    Meshak wrote: »
    If you're suggesting the only thing we can do is have one person talk to eme when they get the chance and hope for change I would hope there are more options for interaction.
    No, that wasn't what I was suggesting. I was just trying to explain the issues I try to focus on, my reasons for choosing those particular types of issues, and why I take this approach. But everyone gives feedback in their own way.

    Meshak wrote: »
    As a player council member are there regular meetings where you get to voice concerns or something?
    I've suggested that we have regular meetings, but it's up to EME.

    Meshak wrote: »
    How about a follow up to the message they forwarded. Whether its good news or bad news.
    I don't even know if EME gets that kind of specific follow-up until changes are further down the development timeline. But even if they did... I'm not sure it'll really go better if they start giving people the "bad news." I mean, I think it'd still be the right thing to do... but I also worry that it'd make people even more upset for being ignored/denied.


    Basically, people in our market are not used to being treated as a "secondary market." All the major tech companies and many of the major gaming companies are here, and they all spend a lot of their focus on making products people here like. They also tend to be more directly interactive with people here to get their feedback and openly iterative. BHS's development culture really isn't like that, from what we've seen over the years.

    Anyway, I really wish that we could get a representative of the BHS development team to take and directly respond to questions from our market. I (and many others) have made that suggestion before too.
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