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Comments

  • SephlezarSephlezar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Who gives a crap about a game called "Sudden Attack". Did you read the article at all or just the headline and post it? I don't think this is some widespread issue, the idea of a loot box is chance you should not have an equal chance to get the rarest items or is that the way the entitled generation wants life to go now? Maybe when I go to vegas I should have the same % chance to win as everyone else on the hold em tables because that's "fair". ;p
  • SakkySakky ✭✭
    The loot box issue is it's a form of gambling and people get addicted to it. in the USA you have to be 18 and in some casinos 21 to gamble so allowing a gambling mechanic that people of any age can use means underage people are illegally gambling. This is the point many people are trying to make and get laws passed for.

    Personaly I am fine if it's only for cosmetic things. When it comes to altering game play or needed to continue game play (star wars battle front 2 loot boxes)
  • Sephlezar wrote: »
    Who gives a crap about a game called "Sudden Attack". Did you read the article at all or just the headline and post it? I don't think this is some widespread issue, the idea of a loot box is chance you should not have an equal chance to get the rarest items or is that the way the entitled generation wants life to go now? Maybe when I go to vegas I should have the same % chance to win as everyone else on the hold em tables because that's "fair". ;p

    The fact you compared it to a casino is the reason these probably shouldnt be in video games lol
  • Loot boxes are not gambling due to the simple fact that every box grants something, if the boxes had the chance to be "empty" things would be different though this is not the case. So many players state that "I opened X amount of boxes and got nothing", personally ask some of them "so all the boxes were empty right?"...

    If a person is spending money on a game it should be considered disposable income and treated as such for the most part. There's simply too much internet out there for people to still try and play the role of "blindly spending money on chances at something". There are people out there that spend hundreds if not more on lottery tickets (true gambling) and win nothing, can they file a suit/claim? Of course not so why should players spending money on loot boxes where they essentially always get something be able to? The wallet/purse/credit card doesn't always strike it big in regard to RNG and a responsible person interested in spending money on RNG should know that.
  • edited April 2018
    Regarding this article, it should be pointed out that this is actually a fine about deceptive advertising. Many Asian countries have regulations requiring disclosing the odds for lootboxes, but it seems that the companies in this case did not clearly disclose the differing odds for the different items. (They probably said "your odds of getting a puzzle piece are <x>" without clearly specifying that the odds for one of the pieces was way different than the other, even though on the average/aggregate the odds were probably right. It's indeed clearly deceptive. This is why a lot of companies instead go into exhaustive detail of the exact percentage chance for every item.)

    I think that all companies, including EME, should be required to disclose the odds for all lootboxes, and they should be held to account if the actual odds don't line up to what's advertised... but there's a ways to go before companies are required to do that here, sadly.
  • NemmarNemmar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    Loot boxes are not gambling due to the simple fact that every box grants something, if the boxes had the chance to be "empty" things would be different though this is not the case. So many players state that "I opened X amount of boxes and got nothing", personally ask some of them "so all the boxes were empty right?"...

    If a person is spending money on a game it should be considered disposable income and treated as such for the most part. There's simply too much internet out there for people to still try and play the role of "blindly spending money on chances at something". There are people out there that spend hundreds if not more on lottery tickets (true gambling) and win nothing, can they file a suit/claim? Of course not so why should players spending money on loot boxes where they essentially always get something be able to? The wallet/purse/credit card doesn't always strike it big in regard to RNG and a responsible person interested in spending money on RNG should know that.

    That would only be true if it were a physical good. It's not, so lootboxes indeed give you nothing. It's just a number, just like real gambling. They don't even disclose the odds.
    Disagree? Let's tell casinos that everytime someone loses they get a token wich they can trade 100 for a mint. Tada! No more taxation and regulation! It's not gambling! Yeah... right.


    Anyways i'm gonna take this oppotunity to say that the shop in this game is insidious.
    Not only are there lootboxes and more gambling inside those lootboxes by choosing one of four squares, but the weapon collections are an even bigger scam.

    I got one with my emp. It's a lootbox and for 200emp it gives you 1 token. You need 80 tokens to get one weapon! That is 225*80=18000 EMP for ONE Weapon skin!
    If i'm rembering correctly... 1000 emp = 10 euros. That's a bit shy of 180 euros for one skin!

    It is so outrageous that i feel like letting Jim sterling know.

    I am trying really hard to ignore the cash shop cause it's by itself a great reason to not play this game. En masse really needs to lay off the extremism or it will blow up in their faces.
  • Deceptive? No. Unclear? Yes. Though players could easily ask/research before spending which for the most part they don't even though the opportunity is readily available.

    The issue seems to be more along the lines of irresponsible spending and then blaming the game when a player doesn't get what they want.
    I think that all companies, including EME, should be required to disclose the odds for all lootboxes, and they should be held to account if the actual odds don't line up to what's advertised...

    That's the problem, a number of players want the chances/numbers to be conveyed so they can use them to support their argument(s) against, arguably more than to simply know/be informed.

    Odds don't necessarily directly translate into winning which is what a lot of people misunderstand/try to use in their argument. A 1% chance at a rare item does not mean at most it will take 100 boxes to win that particular item, it simply means each box has a 1% chance at that prize, nothing more, nothing less.

    Percent chances less than 1% (.001%, etc.) are even less likely to occur especially when there are other items that may occur, more so if the less rare items have a higher percent chance to occur.

    Does disclosing chances influence purchases, maybe, though if players spend considerable amounts without knowing exact chances it is intriguing to know what they will spend if they knew/know...
  • Nemmar wrote: »
    That would only be true if it were a physical good. It's not, so lootboxes indeed give you nothing.
    In so many words that essentially kills arguments about loot boxes being gambling and or % odds right? :)
  • edited April 2018
    Nemmar wrote: »
    I got one with my emp. It's a lootbox and for 200emp it gives you 1 token. You need 80 tokens to get one weapon! That is 200*80=16000 EMP for ONE Weapon skin!
    If i'm rembering correctly... 1.5k emp = 10 euros. That's a bit above 100 euros for one skin!

    It is so outrageous that i feel like letting Jim sterling know.
    Actually, this loot box is incredibly important because it was the first one in the game that actually had a failure cap. It's not that you need 80 tokens to get one weapon skin, it's that if you fail 80 attempts you're guaranteed to get a weapon skin. These tokens are also tradeable, so people who are lucky (win one without using their tokens) can trade away their extra tokens so that someone else can complete their set.

    Most of the other lootboxes in the game are not like this, which means that -- if you're unlucky -- you could theoretically open 200+ boxes and still not get the prize. That is much more outrageous, actually. Now, odds are in both cases that you'll get it in less than that, but having a failure cap is way better than not having one.

    I hope they turn all the lootboxes into ones like this, because it's much better to know that there is an absolute end to RNG at some point. I've been pushing for this for years on the PC side, and this is the one time they actually did it right. I don't want people's misunderstandings about what it represents to shut it down for the wrong reason when the alternative is much worse.

    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    That's the problem, a number of players want the chances/numbers to be conveyed so they can use them to support their argument(s) against, arguably more than to simply know/be informed.

    Oh, to be clear, I don't think this accountability would be from players, but through having to keep auditable records and a mandated third-party auditing process. Of course it's true that a lot of people don't understand probability and will say "the numbers are a lie!" when they don't get their rare after <x> approaches, but those misinformed arguments aren't the reason to either do or not do it.


    Obviously, I and everyone else would prefer if everything could be direct-buy, but short of that, posted odds and failure caps are absolutely needed.
  • NemmarNemmar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Nemmar wrote: »
    I got one with my emp. It's a lootbox and for 200emp it gives you 1 token. You need 80 tokens to get one weapon! That is 200*80=16000 EMP for ONE Weapon skin!
    If i'm rembering correctly... 1.5k emp = 10 euros. That's a bit above 100 euros for one skin!

    It is so outrageous that i feel like letting Jim sterling know.
    Actually, this loot box is incredibly important because it was the first one in the game that actually had a failure cap. It's not that you need 80 tokens to get one weapon skin, it's that if you fail 80 attempts you're guaranteed to get a weapon skin. These tokens are also tradeable, so people who are lucky (win one without using their tokens) can trade away their extra tokens so that someone else can complete their set.

    Most of the other lootboxes in the game are not like this, which means that -- if you're unlucky -- you could theoretically open 200+ boxes and still not get the prize. That is much more outrageous, actually. Now, odds are in both cases that you'll get it in less than that, but having a failure cap is way better than not having one.

    I hope they turn all the lootboxes into ones like this, because it's much better to know that there is an absolute end to RNG at some point. I've been pushing for this for years on the PC side, and this is the one time they actually did it right. I don't want people's misunderstandings about what it represents to shut it down for the wrong reason when the alternative is much worse.


    It makes an awful situation not as bad, but it's still an awful situation.

    You might think that's acceptable if you are a whale to these guys, but it really isn't.
    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    That would only be true if it were a physical good. It's not, so lootboxes indeed give you nothing.
    In so many words that essentially kills arguments about loot boxes being gambling and or % odds right? :)

    What? Is this loony toons day? Not a word you said made any sense and everyone that read it is d... well, you know how it goes.
  • Oh, to be clear, I don't think this accountability would be from players, but through having to keep auditable records and a mandated third-party auditing process. Of course it's true that a lot of people don't understand probability and will say "the numbers are a lie!" when they don't get their rare after <x> approaches, but those misinformed arguments aren't the reason to either do or not do it.
    Those type of things (auditing, etc.) are seemingly quite unnecessary for video games where people have the option to spend money or not. "Government" has already overstepped it's spectrum a thousand fold already and those type of things will be just another layer that game developers/producers will surely respond to by shaking the game up another way. Arguably posting drop rates won't do much as far players spending money or not due to the alternative being spending more time in-game grinding which a number of players try to circumvent by spending money.

    Loot boxes can and do contain various items that sell for considerable amounts even if they are not the rarest of the rare. If most of the items that occur were "trash" then it would be different.

    Even if loot boxes were done away with players would still complain about drop rates, what then? Complaining about drop rates can essentially be reinforced if someone spends money and they feel they didn't get the "worth" of what they spent even though it was on a chance and not a direct item purchase.

    A number of items from loot boxes are available through "direct buy"
    With TERA for example the trade broker has various items from loot boxes that players are selling for gold, get the gold > buy the item > essentially no RNG involved for the buyer. Pay a specified amount of in-game currency or spend an undisclosed amount of money "trying" to get it, personally the direct, trade broker route makes more sense.. Not to mention the various ways to obtain gold which will help fund purchasing items directly from the trade broker.
    Obviously, I and everyone else would prefer if everything could be direct-buy, but short of that, posted odds and failure caps are absolutely needed.
    Nah, those that don't agree with "pay-to-win" concepts would be all over it LoL. When spending money provides so much more advantage to actual gameplay the imbalance will call attention to itself.
    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    That would only be true if it were a physical good. It's not, so lootboxes indeed give you nothing.
    In so many words that essentially kills arguments about loot boxes being gambling and or % odds right? :)
    That question was a bit of humor about "lootboxes indeed give you nothing" and people getting worked up over the "nothing" they chose to spend money on.
    Nemmar wrote: »
    Let's tell casinos that everytime someone loses they get a token wich they can trade 100 for a mint. Tada! No more taxation and regulation! It's not gambling! Yeah... right.
    The statement about loot boxes not being gambling wasn't a comparison to gambling, it was simply exhibiting how it doesn't fit into the scope of gambling. It could have also or been stated that loot boxes nor their contents have real world value so that essentially disqualifies it/them from being gambling.
    Players should know that they are taking something that has a supposed tangible, real world value and converting it into something of "digital" or no RW value that they cannot within the rules of the game convert back into the former. Similar to "no cash value" tokens at amusement parks, once the RWC (real world currency) is converted into the tokens they essentially have to be "spent" at the facility because outside of it they have no value for purchases.

    With casinos on the other hand people are using that RWC to try and win more of it and RW value can actually be lost.

    In regard to video games, when spending money on a micro-transaction what is lost?
  • NemmarNemmar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    Nemmar wrote: »
    That would only be true if it were a physical good. It's not, so lootboxes indeed give you nothing.
    In so many words that essentially kills arguments about loot boxes being gambling and or % odds right? :)
    That question was a bit of humor about "lootboxes indeed give you nothing" and people getting worked up over the "nothing" they chose to spend money on.
    Nemmar wrote: »
    Let's tell casinos that everytime someone loses they get a token wich they can trade 100 for a mint. Tada! No more taxation and regulation! It's not gambling! Yeah... right.
    The statement about loot boxes not being gambling wasn't a comparison to gambling, it was simply exhibiting how it doesn't fit into the scope of gambling. It could have also or been stated that loot boxes nor their contents have real world value so that essentially disqualifies it/them from being gambling.
    Players should know that they are taking something that has a supposed tangible, real world value and converting it into something of "digital" or no RW value that they cannot within the rules of the game convert back into the former. Similar to "no cash value" tokens at amusement parks, once the RWC (real world currency) is converted into the tokens they essentially have to be "spent" at the facility because outside of it they have no value for purchases.

    With casinos on the other hand people are using that RWC to try and win more of it and RW value can actually be lost.

    In regard to video games, when spending money on a micro-transaction what is lost?[/quote]

    /sigh

    Lets stop playing games. This is the definition of gambling:

    "the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes."

    You can google it on the dictionary.

    Loot boxes are games of chance with the stakes being virtual goods.

    It IS gambling in every sense of the word. You know it's gambling too but are playing devils advocate for no good reason.

    All of it can be mirrored.

    You pay money to play.

    Your probability of winning the prize is low.
    (consolation prizes aka trash is no consolation or casinos can just offer a cookie everytime someone loses and pay no gambling taxes)

    The prize does not have to be money. It's still gambling.

    Heck the lootboxes are so bad in this game that you even have gambling inside your gamble box. You have to choose one of four boxes. Can't be anymore like a casino.

    But i guess those lootboxes with tokens are at least trying, but, only prove how ridiculous it is and how they take advantage of customers... wich is why it needs regulation. The consumers must be protected.

    It IS gambling. Stop it. Theres no conceivable way that it's not without creating a loophole for casinos. Making a virtual coin is just a way to try and side-step the law. It will never hold. What matters is the protection of the consumers.I know that in the US you all get abused by the companies but in europe that will not roll.
  • edited April 2018
    IllicitRed wrote: »

    I just hope other countries take example from things like this article and these people fining these companies for the bad practices these game companies are doing with these gambling boxes and start cracking down on them. It's one thing to be pay to win or pay for advantage, but its a whole other thing to put gambling in your game and have your customers spending half a grand on something they want but rng won't let them get. It's a greedy and unnecessary marketing tactic.
  • Smack it, flip it rub it down as you see fit. Players choosing to spend on chances at virtual items are doing so of their own free will. Players don't even own the accounts they create. Personally would love for drop rates to be posted for the simple fact it will help kill arguments. Stricter regulations, etc. aren't going to stop the spenders and if profit margins suffer to a considerable degree then those that produce/develop games will turn to other measures and if they don't work free-to-play games will start to fold, so forth and so on.

    Nobody is forced to spend money on free-to-play games.
  • NemmarNemmar ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    TriNitY706 wrote: »
    Smack it, flip it rub it down as you see fit. Players choosing to spend on chances at virtual items are doing so of their own free will. Players don't even own the accounts they create. Personally would love for drop rates to be posted for the simple fact it will help kill arguments. Stricter regulations, etc. aren't going to stop the spenders and if profit margins suffer to a considerable degree then those that produce/develop games will turn to other measures and if they don't work free-to-play games will start to fold, so forth and so on.

    Nobody is forced to spend money on free-to-play games.

    I'm sorry, i can't hear you over the sound of how right i am.

    http://www.siliconera.com/2018/04/19/dutch-gaming-authority-declares-loot-boxes-gambling/

    Stricter regulation will protect consumers and stricter taxation will get publishers to stop doing it, or at least do it in a less parasitic way.
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